Can one have the calmness that comes with the acceptance that nothing is important, that everything is equal, and that one chooses their controlled folly along a path with heart, without actually being able to "see" in the sense that Don Juan means? Or am I fooling myself with false calmness/sober detachment?
Sober Detachment Without "Seeing"
- Thread starter Ominous
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I don't think so, because to me "calmness that comes with the acceptance that nothing is important, that everything is equal, and that one chooses their controlled folly along a path with heart" sounds like new age "all is one" subjective nonsense, which is the antithesis of objective Seeing.
It is not true that nothing is important. Many things are important, wouldn't you agree?
Joe
It is not true that nothing is important. Many things are important, wouldn't you agree?
Joe
The way I interpreted what Don Juan said (I've never heard his teachings referred to as New Age on SOTT B4, btw) was that, in the long run, everything is equal in terms of existence. My problems may not be important in your eyes, nor yours in mine, but both are equal in terms of all existence. Nothing matters; everything matters. I'm not sure how exactly to articulate what I mean, or what I'm experiencing; just that it SEEMS to be the 1st real progress I've ever noticed & that it's come at a most tumultuous time in my life. I don't feel all IS love and light, just that I feel love for ALL. Again, I'm having trouble articulating.
PepperFritz
The Cosmic Force
In view of the traumas you are currently experiencing in your life, you may be mistaking "calmness" with the emotional numbness that eventually takes over when the psyche has reached an "overload" point.Ominous said:
I cannot discount the possibilities you suggest, but I don't FEEL numb emotionally. I feel a detached calmness while at the same time still feeling the love towards my partner that I felt B4. As I said in the "On the cusp" thread, its very strange that I feel this way, and for such a long (for me) time. Usually it comes and goes. I still feel the other emotions hovering at a distance, but they seem to have no power. And I seem to be able to choose which emotions I want to let out, such as love towards my family. As I've been working so hard at attaining this state, it surprised me when it just "happened." Its as if the Predator no longer finds me appetizing. Patience and perseverance will tell, tho. But Joe said he doesn't think one can first feel like this B4 "seeing." I realize its usually the other way round. Who knows. It sure is helping tho!
anart
A Disturbance in the Force
The idea that you think, even remotely, that the predator doesn't find you appetizing indicates that you are lying to yourself - big time - and nothing more. You've been 'working so hard at attaining this state'?? Really? What work? What state? The end result of this Work we do is not love, light and 'bliss' - and that 'end result' is not reached in a matter of years, much less months.Ominous said:
It also sounds like you have simply applied what Gurdjieff calls a 'buffer' - so you can no longer feel what is really going on. Wishful thinking WILL get you every time - though it is certainly your choice to believe your buffers are freedom.
As far as Castenada - there are two or three references in Castenada's books that are helpful for the Work and that's about it. The rest is fluff and distraction - this is what we have found to be the case.
It sounds very much like you have been lulled into sleep by the fanciful 'feel good' words and are now lying to yourself and convincing yourself you have made progress.
Progress is not made in a month's time or a year's time - buffers, however, can be 'made' instantaneously.
As far as your 'it sure is helping tho' - comment - I'm sure it is - but exactly what is it helping? I think if you are able to look objectively at that question and its answer, you will realize a few things.
Or, you can just enjoy the respite and rest. Up to you - it's your life and no one else's.
PepperFritz
The Cosmic Force
Ominous, there's certainly nothing wrong in allowing yourself a little "respite and rest" when in the midst of emotionally traumatic upheavals -- as long as you recognize it for what it is. Unfortunately, there are no "short cuts". You have entered the crucible of a third-density "lesson", and there will be many ups and downs and twists and turns in the road before you can look back with clarity upon your "progress". As the C's remind us, do not have unreasonable expectations of yourself, do not be frustrated and self-berating for failing to reach 4th grade, when you are still sitting exams for 3rd grade....anart said:
PepperFritz
The Cosmic Force
Yep, it is what it is. Pretending otherwise in order to "self-calm" only makes the situation more precarious, and you will fail to be vigilant to the dangers around you. If "knowledge protects", one of the most important things to "know" is when its "bad".Johnno said:
The state of sober detachment - are you saying that it is not at all possible for one to attain this in a matter of months? So, you feel I am lying to myself? Do you suggest I purposely abandon this calmness? I'm not saying its anything great, just that I seem to be seeing things rationally now, instead of emotionally. I see the good and bad, and accept them for what they are w/out becoming overly upset as B4. And the Predator comment was a joke. If they feed upon negative energy, then my output has gone from massive to minute, in any case. It is unfortunate that I can't articulate exactly what I'm going thru to you. Are the teachings of Don Juan off the mark? You obviously feel I'm deluding myself; what would you suggest be my next course of action? I thought I was seeing things soberly for the first time - you think I'm not. I have a real problem then, worse than B4 (and that was pretty bad)!
anart
A Disturbance in the Force
For what it's worth, I don't think you have any more of a real problem now than you did before - I just think (and I could be mistaken) that you have applied a buffer for survival purposes. This is very common and can even be useful in certain situations. The danger would lie in assuming the buffer is something that it is not.Ominous said:
Of course it's better to not see everything in a completely emotional manner - it is the flavor with which you describe the sensation that indicates that you are 'escaping' - that you are not seeing objectively. That is not the end of the world and can be part of the process - but seeing it for what it is (or probably is) is quite important.
It is my personal understanding that the kind of 'understanding' that you think you have achieved cannot be achieved in a few months. Could I be wrong? Of course - anything is possible - I'm just relating my understanding.
I would suggest that your next course of action is to continue to observe yourself - how this relief feels and why it feels that way. What is the best part and how does that make you feel - what reactions does it engender - and why do these reactions come about.
In short - keep doing what you've been trying to do and don't get lost in the poppy field. All is not lost and nothing is any 'worse' than it was yesterday - just don't forget that, (in the useful words of Don Juan) - remember the flyer's stupendous maneuver - "THEY GAVE US THEIR MIND" - our minds, Ominous, are not to be trusted and that counts for the good and the bad - until we awaken, our thinking/feeling/reactions are all a 'foreign installation' - and waking can take a lifetime or several even.
As I said about Don Juan, there are a few gems among that fluff - but the gems must be carefully picked out and almost always they are the words that make one uneasy instead of the words that make one more comfortable. fwiw.
If everything is equal and nothing is important, there would not be any paths as all paths would be equal, and so there would be no need or use for "heart", osit. It's the same as the argument, "everything is subjective, nothing is objective", osit.Ominous said:
Precisely what Joe said - in the long run (ultimately) "all is one". But this really applies to the universe, not our lives.Ominous said:
For someone who is interested in reaching a greater and greater level of objectivity, things that help this are important. And I think the more progress we make on that path, the more our "values" become the same as the values of others on that same path. And I think that's because objective path means that we begin to have a common understanding about which things are important to help us grow and learn, and which are not. We begin to differentiate between the B influences and the A influences. But in a subjective paths, we'd never agree on a damn thing, and have a kazillion different "values" which are all basically a figment of our imagination. It's like "this water bottle here is the most important thing in the world to me". .. Why? "Cuz I said so!". And "cuz I said so" is the crux of subjectivity, it is what brings it into "existence", and where it remains, and that's also where all the things that we value in the name of subjectivity remain, and all that they are really worth, osit.Ominous said:
And what I did right away was jump to a conclusion that I must have "attained" something. Point taken that I mustn't assume ANYTHING until time has tested it. Am I correct here concerning your intent? I'm grateful to you all for stopping me on my run-away train of self-importance, tho I didn't realize I was on it until a moment ago.
Russ
Jedi Master
I think, the "universe" doesnt take our importance into account - its not biased. What it seems to do is generate lots of possibilities. It doesn't care if we like them or not.
If a murderer is coming at you, the universe isn't going to save you, its going to keep the knife nice and sharp. It doesn't think its important that you don't die then, but you probably do.
Maybe this is what you noticed, to the universe, nothing is important. But surely you, as a living being, find some things important?
If a murderer is coming at you, the universe isn't going to save you, its going to keep the knife nice and sharp. It doesn't think its important that you don't die then, but you probably do.
Maybe this is what you noticed, to the universe, nothing is important. But surely you, as a living being, find some things important?