Some Oriental Poetry

[Novelis]

Hello everyone,

...Nightmare, woke up, still felt tired, went to do some pipe breathing and meditation... Lo and behold, still couldn't sleep... It's 6:45am now, so I'm up anyway.

I thought I'd take this chance to just share a piece of poetry with you all. I've been learning Chinese calligraphy, and I found this piece in a book about alchemy that drew particular interest:

「人身難得今已得，大道難明今已明。此身不向今生度，更向何生度此身。」

(The following translation is my own interpretation)

It means:

"Life is hard to attain, and yet today it is in our possession. The great way is hard to see, and yet here it is in plain sight. If one does not use this life to cultivate oneself, then in which life?"

Thanks

 

[Aiming]

Thanks for sharing, Novelis. True indeed: When, if not now? I find such sayings to always be strengthening in some way, as if receiving yet a further push to keep at it, no matter how bleak everything looks. To me it also emphasizes that it's important to include the non-persona's view, that is, it's the soul what this is all about, and even if persona cannnot see the full picture, she/he at least has this inner striving and albeit the future is still in the dark, this inner striving is the only true thing one can hold onto. Thus: keep going, do not throw the towel, simply keep going.

Hope I've not been digressing too much, it's just what came to mind while reading your interpretaion. Speaking of that, could you explain what it is about the Chinese language that one needs to "interpret" it instead of "translating" it?

 

[Novelis]

I find such sayings to always be strengthening in some way, as if receiving yet a further push to keep at it, no matter how bleak everything looks.

I definitely agree with that, thanks for the encouragement. Oh, the joy of writing it up though!! The state of mind one has to get into to write the poem is twice the fun as the message contained within it! :D

Speaking of that, could you explain what it is about the Chinese language that one needs to "interpret" it instead of "translating" it?

I'm not sure the Chinese language, in itself, needs to be "interpreted" instead of being "translated", to be honest - Perhaps only certain materials? Those which are more abstract and steeped in socio-cultural dynamics?

I actually wrote (The following translation is my own) originally, but then, realising that I included a few stylistic innovations of my own, in order to make the English sound more "artistic/poetic", I added the word "interpretation", thus making it an "interpretative translation" instead of simply a translation.

This was due partly because of my wish to put a bit of distance between myself and the work of a real, professional translator.

I reasoned that, since a true translation of that text would rest on knowledge of both Eastern and Western esoteric materials (along with the vast amount of cultural, historical and collocational data behind such materials), that it would rather be best to shy away from any presumptions of knowing anything at all and to refer to the "translation" as having an "interpretive slant".

Do you see the distinction?

For instance, I interpreted the great way as being hard to see, when, in fact, the original word, 明, means "to be apparent/to be clear", but I chose the word "see" because of the collocational associations the word see brings forth in my mind in relation to the only source of western esoteric materials that dare say I know of, i.e. The Cassiopaean materials, exemplified in phrases such as:

It's not who you are but what you see.

Also, I thought that the contrast between the way being "hard to see" while being "in plain sight" was quite a creative touch on my part, if I do say so myself!

Maybe I shouldn't have call it an "interpretative translation" at all, but rather just an interpretation?

In another note, besides giving you some feedback about my choice of words, which, as I assume, was needed because of our misunderstanding of my meaning when I wrote

(The following translation is my own interpretation)

, I would say that your question indicated more than you were letting off, so let me be blunt and ask you:

Do you hypothesise that the Chinese language does in fact need to be interpreted instead of translated? I ask simply because what you said triggered a curiosity in me that perhaps, because of the massive linguistic gap between English and Chinese, that maybe only interpretation was possible.

Or is the above, somehow, what you assumed I assume?

The following question is a bit strange, but... Did you ask me this question because I, unknowingly to myself, revealed an aspect of my mechanical personality, and you phrased this question in a specific way, so that I would reflect upon those very thoughts that were running rather automatically/indolently in me at the time of writing? If so, then thanks, since, by answering your question as clearly as possible, I had to question the motions that went through my head at the time of writing this post, which I feel has been quite beneficial.

Thank you, Puzzle.

 

[Aiming]

Oh, the joy of writing it up though!! The state of mind one has to get into to write the poem is twice the fun as the message contained within it! :D

I can definitely relate to that! :)

I actually wrote (The following translation is my own) originally, but then, realising that I included a few stylistic innovations of my own, in order to make the English sound more "artistic/poetic", I added the word "interpretation", thus making it an "interpretative translation" instead of simply a translation.

I see, that makes sense.

I reasoned that, since a true translation of that text would rest on knowledge of both Eastern and Western esoteric materials (along with the vast amount of cultural, historical and collocational data behind such materials), that it would rather be best to shy away from any presumptions of knowing anything at all and to refer to the "translation" as having an "interpretive slant".

Do you see the distinction?

Yes, and thanks for explaining it.

Do you hypothesise that the Chinese language does in fact need to be interpreted instead of translated? I ask simply because what you said triggered a curiosity in me that perhaps, because of the massive linguistic gap between English and Chinese, that maybe only interpretation was possible.

When asking you this question I didn't yet hypothesise at all, I was simply curious - the word "interpretation" caught my eye. And now that you've mentioned it, I do think that translating generally contains a degree of interpretation; the degree of it being dependant of the language being translated, due to for example differences of cultural context. Also, you've surely noticed that translating another language word for word is not sufficient -- one has to find the equivalents in order for the translation to sound 'true' in the 'destination language'.
Then, speaking of Chinese, there is, as you've said, a massive linguistic gap between it and English, so translating Chinese into English seems to be an even greater call. But I have no knowledge of Chinese. It surely must be an interesting language to study.

Or is the above, somehow, what you assumed I assume?

I didn't assume anything when asking you about it. I was just curious.

The following question is a bit strange, but... Did you ask me this question because I, unknowingly to myself, revealed an aspect of my mechanical personality, and you phrased this question in a specific way, so that I would reflect upon those very thoughts that were running rather automatically/indolently in me at the time of writing? If so, then thanks, since, by answering your question as clearly as possible, I had to question the motions that went through my head at the time of writing this post, which I feel has been quite beneficial.

I didn't see you revealing an aspect of your mechanical personality, and I also didn't phrase the question consciously in a particular way. But I think it's good that a simple written interaction such as this one prompted you to question your motions and look deeper. :)

 

[Novelis]

Thank you very much for your time. I have nothing really to add to what you've said, except perhaps some points from which to digress into other areas.

I can definitely relate to that!

Just out of curiosity, how so?

But I have no knowledge of Chinese. It surely must be an interesting language to study.

I read a quote once somewhere, can't recall where, but it said something along the lines of:

"You don't know your own language until you've studied another."

I can certainly attest to that, and would encourage anyone to learn other languages.

Another point, the Eastern world has been forced to learn English for decades now, and although the way that language learning is promoted has achieved little success, at least when compared with Western people learning Chinese, well, we are far behind in that sense.

But I think it's good that a simple written interaction such as this one prompted you to question your motions and look deeper.

I am delighted that you think so, even though I thought, at the time, that this was the least I could do and was the norm on this forum. ;D

 

[Aiming]

Oh, the joy of writing it up though!! The state of mind one has to get into to write the poem is twice the fun as the message contained within it! :D

I can definitely relate to that! :)

Just out of curiosity, how so?

There was a time I used to write poems regularly, which requires a certain state of mind that I find, as you've aptly expressed it, joyful.
Also:

...but then, realising that I included a few stylistic innovations of my own, in order to make the English sound more "artistic/poetic", I added the word "interpretation", thus making it an "interpretative translation" instead of simply a translation.

I have this inclination to make language sound more 'artistic/poetic'. I enjoy doing it, it's like art, in a way; at least that's what it feels like.

Then, I've recently started to play the piano, that is I'm teaching myself to play it. And this is the one 'area' where I'm feeling this joyful state very intensely. It feels like a similar state of joy when writing up something that's coming from deep within (coupled with making it sound poetic); only that when playing the piano this joyful state is like ten times more intensely felt.
And that's why I can relate to your joy of the state of having written it up -- at least if I've understood you correctly and was not simply projecting my own experience onto yours.

"You don't know your own language until you've studied another."

I can certainly attest to that, and would encourage anyone to learn other languages.

That's an interesting quote, and thinking about it, it seems to be true, because one thing I encounter very often when translating is that I understand for myself what is being said in the foreign language, but I have to 'work' in order to convey the exact meaning into my own language. It's like there's one 'brain' for my mother tongue and another 'brain' for the foreign tongue, and in order to merge them (even if the foreign tongue is spoken and written fluently already), it needs continous work and effort.

Another point, the Eastern world has been forced to learn English for decades now, and although the way that language learning is promoted has achieved little success, at least when compared with Western people learning Chinese, well, we are far behind in that sense.

Could you elaborate on that? In what way exactly has language learning been promoted in the Eastern world, and in what way is the Eastern world behind in learning English as compared to Western people learning Chinese?

But I think it's good that a simple written interaction such as this one prompted you to question your motions and look deeper.

I am delighted that you think so, even though I thought, at the time, that this was the least I could do and was the norm on this forum. ;D

It is indeed. ;)

 

[Novelis]

I've recently started to play the piano, that is I'm teaching myself to play it. And this is the one 'area' where I'm feeling this joyful state very intensely.

That's amazing! I'd like to play the guitar myself... Maybe I will after reading your post about how gratifying it can be. :)

And that's why I can relate to your joy of the state of having written it up -- at least if I've understood you correctly and was not simply projecting my own experience onto yours.

Interesting insight, but I think that's rather inevitable, like, I guess the same would be true even if we were partaking in the same activity.

In what way exactly has language learning been promoted in the Eastern world

Through fairly usual and unsurprising means, through including English learning in the national curriculum from junior school level through to higher education, through job availability/opportunity, through the media, and through privatised tuition, to put it generally.

Could you elaborate on that?

I could, certainly, but I'd like to know your specific area/point of intrigue from which I could elaborate upon, so that I don't go into details that are outside the scope of your interest in this large and complicated domain of information.

in what way is the Eastern world behind in learning English as compared to Western people learning Chinese?

What I said was:

the Eastern world has been forced to learn English for decades now, and although the way that language learning is promoted has achieved little success, at least when compared with Western people learning Chinese, well, we are far behind in that sense.

Forgive me for perhaps not making myself clear, what I meant was that Westerners (or more specifically, people in English speaking countries), in learning Chinese, are far behind with respect to Easterners (or more specifically, people in Chinese speaking countries) are in learning English. Correct me if I'm wrong, of course.

Now that has been cleared up, maybe you would still like me to elaborate upon what I said?

If that's the case, then I would still rather first hear about how you wish for this discussion to progress, as in, what do you want to know?

 

[Aiming]

That's amazing! I'd like to play the guitar myself... Maybe I will after reading your post about how gratifying it can be. :)

I can only recommend you to try it and see what it elicits in you.

There are a lot of self-teaching books out there, so all it needs it dedication and practice. It's not even necessary to go to a teacher.
And a guitar is also a great instrument for sitting around a bonfire with people, don't you think? :) Music simply connects, and I think, playing an instrument connects oneself with another part of self -- the creative well.
Don't know if you've experienced this, but singing elicits a similar state of joy -- so combining playing an instrument with singing must be even better, haven't yet tried it. And then, imagine many (at best colinear) people playing and singing together, and of course dancing those specific dances that produce specific frequencies..

Anyway, with me, I've always loved listening to someone playing the piano and I had always wished to learn it for myself, but never did so. Then, it was during a therapy session and I was to go into my internal safe space, and I saw myself playing the piano. I then resolved to find a way to learn playing. I mentioned this plan to my mother, and then my x-mas gift was a keyboard. I was jumping into the air out of joy, literally. That was one surprise gift there, I felt like a child receiving it's most longed for gift.
Apart from that I was thinking about the practical benefits of this (besides the state of joy), and figured it would help in synchronizing one's hemispheres. I just did a little search:

from http://www.sott.net/articles/show/128940-Playing-Music-Makes-You-Smart:

As they watched movies, the volunteers also listened to Mandarin words that sounded like "mi" continuously at conversation level in the background. Mandarin is a tone language, where a single word can differ in meaning depending on its tone. For example, the Mandarin word "mi" means "to squint" when delivered in a level tone, "to bewilder" when spoken in a rising tone, and "rice" when given in a falling then rising tone.

"Even with their attention focused on the movie and though the sounds had no linguistic or musical meaning for them, we found our musically trained subjects were far better at tracking the three different tones than the non-musicians," said neuroscientist Patrick Wong at Northwestern University.

Surprisingly, the researchers found these changes occurred in the brainstem, the ancient part of the brain responsible for controlling automatic, critical body functions such as breathing and heartbeat.

Music was thought largely to be the province of the cerebral cortex, where higher brain functions such as reasoning, thought and language are seated. The brainstem was thought to be unchangeable and uninvolved in the complex processes linked with music.

"These results show us how malleable to experience the brainstem actually is," Kraus said of the findings detailed in the April issue of the journal Nature Neuroscience. "We think music engages higher level functions in the cortex that actually tune the brainstem."

from http://www.sott.net/articles/show/178109-Musicians-are-fine-tuned-to-others-emotions:

Musical training might help autistic children to interpret other people's emotions. A study has revealed brain changes involved in playing a musical instrument that seem to enhance your ability to pick up subtle emotional cues in conversation.

"It seems that playing music can help you do all kinds of things better," says Nina Kraus from Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois. "Musical experience sharpens your hearing not just for music, but for other sounds too."

Earlier studies suggested that musicians are especially good at identifying emotions expressed in speech, such as anger or sadness. But it wasn't clear what kind of brain activity makes the difference.

"It used to be we thought sensory systems were pretty passive - they took the sound and just passed the information to the cerebral cortex where all the hard work and thinking was done," says Kraus. "But now we're understanding that as we use our sensory systems in an active way, this feeds back and shapes the sensory system all the way down through the brainstem to the ear."

from http://www.sott.net/articles/show/201704-Music-Possesses-an-Amazing-Healing-Power:

Music weaves an intricate physiological dance with the body's neurons and blood cells and this dance is now being intensely studied by various researchers.

First, these electrical signals are converted to hormones in the brain. Dr. Conrad found that along with the need for fewer sedatives and the need to normalize blood pressure and heart rates, critically ill patients showed a 50% spike in growth hormone, produced in the pituitary gland, after listening to just one hour of Mozart piano sonatas. If patients or their families are unable to choose the music, Dr. Conrad often chooses Mozart for his critically ill patients. The various hormones then leave the brain and flow throughout the body via the bloodstream where they calm or stimulate various systems.

Classical music is the most common choice among doctors and therapists. The vibration of stringed instruments in particular is thought to intertwine with the energy of the heart, small intestine, and the thyroid and adrenal glands as shown by research at the Gagnon Cardiovascular Institute in New Jersey.

"I recommend listening to joyful music as part of an overall prescription for maintaining good heart health," said Dr. Michael Miller, director of the center for preventive cardiology at the University of Maryland Medical Center. Dr. Miller defines joyful as any music that brings on a natural high and maximizes the release of endorphins; the body's own feel good chemicals. His research has shown that hearing your favorite song causes your blood vessels to dilate, hence increasing blood flow. He examined healthy volunteers as they listened to songs of their choice and discovered that the diameter of upper arm blood vessels increased by 26%. After listening to music which they hated however, these vessels narrowed by 6%. His research currently supports that any music the patient finds enjoyable will be healing regardless of genre.

As well as this: _http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30990170/

So considering all this (and there's more), playing an instrument seems like a good choice for assisting the healing and integration process we're undergoing with EE. So it's not just the joy in it, there are real benefits in this.

And that's why I can relate to your joy of the state of having written it up -- at least if I've understood you correctly and was not simply projecting my own experience onto yours.

Interesting insight, but I think that's rather inevitable, like, I guess the same would be true even if we were partaking in the same activity.

Good point, thanks for bringing it up. I guess as long as one is being subjective, it's simply inevitable. But that's what the feedback loop is for: share and check what is and what is not a shared impression. That way one can make sure to weed out the projections/distortions.

Forgive me for perhaps not making myself clear, what I meant was that Westerners (or more specifically, people in English speaking countries), in learning Chinese, are far behind with respect to Easterners (or more specifically, people in Chinese speaking countries) are in learning English.
Now that has been cleared up, maybe you would still like me to elaborate upon what I said?

Thank you for clearing this up, I understood it the other way around, namely that Easteners were behind Westeners in learning the other's language. I hadn't yet heard that, and I don't know much about this topic, so that's why I asked you to elaborate, but I seem to have not been making myself clear enough, sorry.
The only question I do still have is, whether there are other reasons for people in Chinese speaking countries being ahead in learning English than Westeners in learning Chinese, as the only thing that comes to my mind is that it's English being the international 'lingua franca', and that most English speaking people thus don't see a need to learn another language -- especially a language that's so different in linguistic roots and thus hard to learn as Chinese.

 

[Novelis]

And a guitar is also a great instrument for sitting around a bonfire with people, don't you think?

That's exactly what I had in mind as well!

Thank you for the above links, I must look more into that. :)

The only question I do still have is, whether there are other reasons for people in Chinese speaking countries being ahead in learning English than Westeners in learning Chinese, as the only thing that comes to my mind is that it's English being the international 'lingua franca', and that most English speaking people thus don't see a need to learn another language -- especially a language that's so different in linguistic roots and thus hard to learn as Chinese.

Forgive me for not making myself clearer, but there was more to what I said, which I was kind of hoping you would pick up on:

the Eastern world has been forced to learn English for decades now, and although the way that language learning is promoted has achieved little success, at least when compared with Western people learning Chinese, well, we are far behind in that sense.

In order to answer your question, allow me to first clarify the extra dimension that I think you missed.

I am saying that while it is true that English learning is promoted in the East, it has also achieved little success, but that, in spite of this apparent failure, the East is still ahead of western people learning Chinese.

In order to understand other reasons why the situation is as it is (while leaving out the extra dimension I just added for now), it is only prudent to delve into the relevant historical, socio-cultural and educational data, which serves as contextual information, in order to really understand the “backdrop” lying behind our discussion.

You stated that English is the “Lingua Franca” in the world today, but exactly how did this come about?

According to what I’ve looked into, English, as an international language, underwent a process, or a certain "evolution" to get to where it is today. There was a massive boom for the demand of English learning ever since the second world war, and as different methodologies were tried and tested “in the field” (English lessons being taught in classrooms around the world), different theories of language learning also evolved according to progresses in the fields of psychology, pedagogy, social sciences, technology and linguistics, to name the most prevalent factors.

This didn't only result in more people being able to speak English, however. This process also brought the field of applied linguistics to a certain stage of scientific maturity and logical irrefutability, concerning how languages are learned.

So, as far as how languages are learnt, and therefore taught, the Western body of knowledge is, by and large, more well informed and scientific than how languages are taught in the East.

Coming back to my earlier point, where I have said that the Eastern world has "achieved little success" in English language learning, I stated this because, according to my observations, while they are promoting English learning, they are doing so against a pervasive backdrop of social and cultural “traditions/conventions” (ignorance and ponerisation in other words) that act as barriers for acquiring the most scientific, and thus effective way of learning English.

For example, in Taiwan, there is a strong convention whereby the teacher is the absolute authority on all matters, and so, students are never given the opportunity to practise autonomy and interest in one’s own learning, resulting in students being quite unable to creatively express themselves using English, keeping them locked up at a premature stage of using English merely as a means to communicate, while more spiritual modes of English expression remain inaccessible.

It is also interesting to note that these social, cultural (and certainly ponerological) factors, however, are not merely “sides of an equation”, like a machine where one inputs the variables and out comes a predictable result. These are factors that interact dynamically with the “subjects” (By which I mean learners of languages) that produce nonlinear outcomes, in what quantum physics calls "complex systems".

Before I digress too far into that side note, however, let me just conclude simply by saying that even though the East is ahead in general English proficiency, they are only ahead in a certain "premature" way, under a system of learning, that is essentially detrimental towards the higher goals of learning a language that is as diametrically opposed (if languages can be considered as such) as can be in respects to Chinese.

So, the fact that the East is ahead of the West, in the way I’ve described, and the reasons why, are quite irrelevant when one considers that, in the end, neither East or West are any closer towards understanding the spiritual dimensions of one another, which is, I can only surmise, one of the many strategies that 4D STS employs to keep everybody separated.

I hope that this elaboration suffices, and, as usual, if the above elicits in you any questions, disagreements and/or insights, then please let me know.

 

[Novelis]

Hello,

Since nearly every post I make tend to end up with no response, I do feel rather awkward writing posts like this one, specifically asking for feedback nearly every time...

So yeah, would anyone be so kind as to give me some feedback upon what I said?

I don't know what's wrong with my posts, is it because I ramble on and on without making any real points of value? Is it because I talk about obscure subjects that nobody feels right commenting upon? Is it uninteresting? Or is it, as a certain sneaking suspicion suggests, that my posts are so out of touch with subjects of any relevance that they are simply ignored?

I really enjoy doing research in my own areas of interest, even if the subjects are hardly touched upon by other members (in fact, that's why I think that they offer value), but I enjoy writing about it in a way that is understandable to others even more. I suppose the exercise has value in considering others, but I am often left with the sense that the explanation wasn't succinct enough.

Is it just my predator's mind again filling me with fear and paranoia or is there any weight to my suspicions?

 

[mkrnhr]

Hi Novelis,
It is natural to feel like that with a few unanswered questions. But the dynamics of a discussion is a very complicated issue. Some read, other read and respond, others decide to respond later... The forum members are scattered around the Earth. Sometimes one is tired because it's time to go sleep (like it is the case for me now) while some other is just back from work in the afternoon, or some other is just connecting in the morning before to go to work. The other thing i think is that many of us here are not native English speakers so the shortest and straight-to-the-point the post are, the more likely they will read them. There are many considerations you will be used to with time. Some times you say something and the discussion continues as if your post did not exist, it will happen, but we are here to observe our reactions and those of our ego. Learning is fun in any case :)
good night :p

 

[Aiming]

Hi Novelis,

just to let you know, I've found your elaboration on the subject very interesting and I really appreciate it. I also appreciate the time and effort you put into your explanation and I enjoyed our exchange. Thank you! My apologies for not expressing this earlier.

Apart from that I've found nothing of significance to add so far, which is probably simply to do with the fact that I don't have knowledge in this area, and am focused on other areas of study.

But the dynamics of a discussion is a very complicated issue. ...
There are many considerations you will be used to with time. ...
Some times you say something and the discussion continues as if your post did not exist, it will happen, but we are here to observe our reactions and those of our ego. Learning is fun in any case :)

I would like to second what mkrnhr said here. It provides an opportunity to observe yourself, identify programs and work on yourself. In the meantime, don't let it discourage you -- keep networking! :)