"stealing" from work

[RyanX]

Ok, I was having a conversation with a friend over the weekend about our work situations. Basically this friend has an entirely different mindset than myself about working a job. She is a manager who works in a distribution center for a major corporation based in the midwest and takes her job very seriously. I think she is in charge of around a dozen employees at her work. On the other hand, I work as a system analyst for a large health care conglomerate. I work more as an underling and have no ambition to manage people. So, we both have somewhat different perspectives when it comes to work and how we approach things. In some ways it has been an eye opening experience talking to her because most of my other friends are in my situation when it comes to our work lives - basically underlings. I feel like I work the job I do because it is a decent way of supporting myself financially, but I don't get any higher satisfaction from working at my job. For whatever reason, my manager friend seems to get a lot of satisfaction or something out of her job.

Furthermore, like a lot of my other friends, I have interests outside of work that keep me afloat in life. In my case, I'm very much interested in the Work and many of the other topics discussed on this forum. I feel this is something more worthwhile to devote my time and energy to instead of becoming what I would consider a "corporate ladder climber". Maybe I just think I see the corporate game for what it is and think that there is nothing there for me. At least in the company I work for, I see that the higher management levels take up progressively more time and energy, which is something I can't see devoting myself to. Because of this, I feel comfortable where I'm at right now because I can kind of sneak under the radar with fewer responsibilities than some of the managers and others above me.

So while conversing with my management friend over the weekend, I described to her my typical work day which consists of a little project work, but mostly support work which is often sporadic. A lot of my job is pretty slow and I end up with a lot of free time on my hands at times. It isn't always like this, sometimes it can be extremely busy and I end up working late nights and weekends just to finish or support a particular project. Most of my job just consists of being "available", so when outages happen, I can respond quickly to rectify the problem. So I typically don't feel guilty about using some of the slow time during the day to pursuing other interests. Typically I have one or two books that I bring with me and read these in my spare time at work. Other times I go on the Cass forums and read and occasionally respond. I feel like I've learned more this way than I could through any formal school, FWIW.

My friend, on the other hand, says that she uses every moment at her job to help improve things for her company. She's involved in a lot of different responsibilities outside of her normal management tasks and it sounds like she keeps pretty busy at work and even outside of work with work-related duties. When I told her that I sometimes use my free time to read books, she accused me of essentially stealing from the company that I work for.

This is where I'm looking for a little objective feedback. I feel that I'm not much different than any of my other peers at my work. I do my tasks and get them done on time and I'm always available when problems arise. Other co-workers bring books to work to read and are often reading news websites online during the slow times. Like many of my other co-workers, I don't seek out extra work to fill the time gaps in between projects or support calls. I suppose that I could do this, but part of me feels that as long as it doesn't interfere with my job, I should continue my reading interests during the slow times instead of seeking out extra tasks beyond my normal job duties. Maybe I'm just trying to rationalize my own relaxed morals in this situation though? I don't want to steal from anybody, even a large corporation, but at the same time if I worked a busier job, I would have little or no time to participate on this forum and read about some of the topics on here. So this is where I'm stuck right now.

My thoughts are:

a.) if I really am stealing from my current employer, I should quit my job and find a different job where my job activities are more aligned with my interests so there is not this conflict. On one hand, this sounds like an ideal situation, but on the other hand, I can think of few jobs that would allow me to read and study the material of this nature and still pay me for it. Maybe I could be a librarian or something?

b.) I should keep my current job and just seek out ways to better the company during the slow periods, so that I don't have a guilty conscience about stealing from the company. If I can improve operations within the company in small ways, maybe this will ultimately improve patient care? I'm kind of skeptical though because most of the projects I have been involved with had little to do with improving patient care. They often had more to do with billing the patients or covering the doctors legally. I'm not sure if I could feel good about myself doing extra work of this nature.

c.) Continue what I'm currently doing by working just enough to get by, but at the same time devoting my time and energy during the slow periods to participating on this forum and reading about the topics on here.

Any feedback would be appreciated!

Ryan

 

[Marcus-Aurelius]

Hi Ryan,
IMO, as far as you are doing and delivering what is required from you, so far as reading books or this forum does not have a negative impact on performance your company expect from you, I don't think you are stealing their money, you are delivering what you are paid for.
I work for a large corporation also and before discovering this forum, I was the kind of person to do anything to improve my company processes even if it is out of my duties. But now, even if I still catch any oppotunity to improve my company processes, I tend to limit only to my duties, devoting the remaining time reading this forum. So I just ensure that my reading does hamper what my company expect from me on a daily basis. So I often read during lunch break or as I do not have internet connexion at home, I just spend extra time in the office to read as much as I can on the forum.
It's just my opinion though.

 

[MetaDjinn]

Hi Ryan,

Are you breaking any corporate policy by reading personal material during down time? Are there any policies stating that internet resources are not to be used for personal interests? If you are not breaking any policies, I would say that "not contributing anything extra" is not the same as "stealing", unless part of your JD or some mission statement or philosphy states otherwise. I have had these debates both internally and externally many times. I was always the one to give more, do more, seek more and I'll I got in return was more headaches and more responsibility that I was not compensated for. If you view your employment only as a vehicle to earn what you need to support yourself and you have no intentions/ambitions to "climb the latter" there, then what is the problem? The corporation does not care about you. In times of trouble, they will show you the door without blinking if needed. This is all just my personal opinion, but seriously, what exactly have you stolen? I have had some experiences of late where we were told that there is "no free" lunch - you have to work a full eight hours and account for all of the time spent. We were told that if we did not submit our hours that we would not be paid. Here's the thing though - I am not an hourly wage employee; I am a salaried employee. When I have to work overtime, and I have done so to the tune of every weekend for about three months, I do not get overtime - I do not get anything!!! So I say it is all relative and you cannot have it both ways. You work when there is work to be done. If there is nothing to be done, you do what suits you. If you are not breaking any rules or contracts or codes, I do not see a problem.

 

[mada85]

RyanX, this is a very interesting topic. I am in a similar situation to you in my work. I have certain responsibilities which I fulfil, and for which I am paid according to my contract. Once that is done, I do have free time at work, during which I am on call. Sometimes it can be very busy and, like you, I have to work late or through lunch and so on. I have thought about this and decided that as long as my employer is happy with the work I do, and my responsibilities are being fulfilled, then I can use my free time as I want. A problem would arise if I did not respond to a call promptly because I was deep into a book. I think that as long as you respond promptly to calls, and are available and ‘on call’, there is no problem.

You do say that you have a guilty conscience about this. Perhaps it’s not your conscience that is pricking you, but instead could be a societal program – something like: ‘Idle hands are the devil’s workshop’?

Regarding your friend, in the past I have pondered this type of personality. One can see it in the example of the aged family retainer who stands by ‘his lordship’ through thick and thin, or in those who unquestioningly support some authoritarian body, local government for example. These people, imho, have a deep seated need to belong to some group or other, and will attach themselves to a group that makes them feel good according to their programming. Or perhaps your friend is just a corporate climber, as you suggest.

Personally, I would have a very hard time giving your friend’s degree of loyalty to a major corporation.

c.) Continue what I'm currently doing by working just enough to get by, but at the same time devoting my time and energy during the slow periods to participating on this forum and reading about the topics on here.

This would be my preferred option.

There is another consideration which is more ‘esoteric’. Let’s say that in the course of your reading while at work, you come across a piece of information which you later recall in discussion with another person. You give them this information and it helps them in some way, or perhaps you yourself are able to act on this information and benefit several people. Just an example. I don’t think the situation is quite as easily defined as ‘stealing from work’. There’s the whole human network and exchange to consider, although I’m sure that many companies would say that you (and I for that matter) ought to be doing only company work in company time.

Which brings me back to my original thought, that as long as your responsibilities are fulfilled to your employer’s satisfaction, then why not use your free time for something ‘higher’?

 

[Ben]

Personally, I would have a very hard time giving your friend’s degree of loyalty to a major corporation.

I have to say I feel the same, and I work for an enormous corporation. I often use my free time at work to read Sott on the internet, and I agree with others who say that as long as it is not affecting your work (and more importantly the workload of your fellow employees, in my opinion) then it is harmless. I'm not sure what my the exact policy at my company is regarding personal use of the internet, but I have to admit that if it 'none is permitted' then I would continue to do so and be more careful about it! I'm afraid I can't feel guilty about this unless it is directly affecting somebody, and I don't see how it is with the enormous bandwidth available. I'm just glad Sott is not blocked at work like it is at my local library (because the filter picks up on words in the new articles like 'terrorism', it's preposterous).

I would ask your friend how she feels about people chatting in the corridors or just sharing a joke or whatever, or how she would feel if this was not permitted by company policy. How soul destroying many peoples jobs would be if this were the case!

 

[Hildegarda]

IMO, your company is paying you for the work that you do, not for you to belong to them fully -- body, soul, and every minute of your time -- for the duration of your working day and beyond.

It so happens that your job is on-call type, where you have periods of high activity and periods of lull. As long as you are not shirking your primary responsibilities and company policy, and doing your share of work when it comes, it is IMO quite OK to read a book when you have nothing to do.

Your friend, being a manager, comes from a different prospective. Distribution center means endless logistics and supervision, and therefore I do see how she wouldn't have a minute free. But she is all too quick to apply it to all areas of work and also to people who are not on the same place in the career ladder as she is, perhaps because she is so personally invested in it.

This brings up two points. One is that some managers have an idea that a person is most productive if every minute of his\her life is dedicated to work, and every free minute brings down productivity. This is why they look down on workplace reading and internet use. This view is micro-managing, controlling and also antiquated: it has roots in a conveyor-belt manufacturing, where indeed a step away from your work station means delay for the whole factory. Most people naturally need breaks in their concentration to then tackle their task with renewed attention. Managers who are more perceptive judge people in their team by the results or their work, not the consistency of motions they go through, which is also IMO more respectful and inspiring.

The other is that your friend may be in for some discoveries of her own. She seems to be dedicated to her work, but does she realize that, at some point in your career, that is no longer enough to progress, while shmoozing and building political alliances becomes important? I wonder whether her "moral principles" would still be immutable were she to give it some thought.

You can learn a lot by talking to a person with a different prospective on things, and may be it will give you some idea on how to optimize your time and learning at work. I think though that you have no reason to make major changes. You are lucky to have a job that allows you to breath. Not defining yourself by the work you do is also, I think, healthy. People who stake their identity on their work have trouble letting go of it. They can't bring themselves to relegate responsibilities or retire when their competence goes down with age, and once they are out of their work environment their cognitive functions goes down rapidly -- I have seen it time and time again, and it's always so sad.

fwiw

 

[MichaelM]

c.) Continue what I'm currently doing by working just enough to get by, but at the same time devoting my time and energy during the slow periods to participating on this forum and reading about the topics on here.

would be my preferred option as well.

I've also thought about this a few years back. And the following is the train of thought that I've come up with to "rationalize" my own "relaxed effort" in my position in an IT company:

"If the product I'm working on, or the industry I'm working in, doesn't really rank very high in significance (i.e. something that directly improves the plight of the common man), then I shouldn't feel too much guilt about doing enough just to get by."
would probably sum up the conclusion of my own thoughts on the same situation I'm in.

I think the same applies to working in a position in an industry that seems to be quite overpaid relative to other positions in other industries. Say, compare a network engineer to a farmer working the fields. Some might say, "apples and oranges" but I think it boils down to valuation systems. Speaking for myself, I would probably be more interested in my work if I were working in the fields, working with my hands, working with plants and soil. I just put a premium on farming than IT work I guess. But the rest of the world doesn't see it my way obviously.
Farming doesn't pay much (well, being a farm hand doesn't) so I choose now to have an IT job and have enough monetary stability and enough time to pursue the Work.

Addressing the "apples and oranges" comparison, we could look at an "apples and apples" comparison. I have an upper level manager that does squat and, imho (in my humble opinion), does not really deserve the position he has. Well, ymmv (your mileage may vary), but I think because of the pathocratic nature of the system, upper level managers to tend to get to the upper positions on the corporate ladder because of pathocratic traits than actual results.
In terms of pay, my manager probably makes at least twice up to maybe three times what I make for maybe 1/10th of the "relaxed effort" that I currently make.

I've also managed to "soothe my guilt" after reading one of Dmitri Orlov's articles about his experiences during Russia's depression, and adapting the "dofenism" approach:
(I couldn't find my original links but I manged to google a webpage with the relevant quote
from _http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2009/02/not-giving-a-damn-as-coping-te.html)

Most Americans have heard of communism, and automatically believe that it is an apt description of the Soviet system, even though there was nothing particularly communal about a welfare state and a vast industrial empire run by an elitist central planning bureaucracy. But very few of them have ever heard of the real operative "ism" that dominated Soviet life: "dofenism," which ca be loosely translated as "not giving a rat's ass." A lot of people, more and more during the "stagnation" period of the 1980s, felt nothing but contempt for the system, did what little they had to do to get by (night watchman and furnace stoker were favorite jobs among the highly educated) and got all their pleasure from theri friends, from their reading or from nature.

This sort of disposition may seem like a cop-out, but when there is a collapse on the horizon, it works as psychological insurance: instead of going through the agonizing process of losing and rediscovering one's identity in a post-collapse environment, one could simply sit back and watch events unfold. If you are currently a "mover and shaker," of things or people or whatever, then collapse will surely come as a shock to you, and it will take you a long time, perhaps forever, to find more things to move and shake to your satisfaction. However, if your current occupation is as a keen observer of grass and trees, then post-collapse you could take on something else that's useful, such as dismantling useless things.

The ability to stop and smell the roses -- to let it all go, to refused to harbor regrets or nurture grievances, to confine one's serious attention only to that which is immediately necessary and not to worry too much about the rest -- is perhaps the one most critical to post-collapse survival. The most psychologically devastated are usually the middle-aged breadwinners who, once they are no longer gainfully employed, feel completely lost. Detachment and indifference can be most healing, provided they do not become morbid. It is good to take your sentimental nostalgia for what once was, is, and will soon no longer be, up front, and get it over with.

I imagine myself to be just like one of those "intellectuals who chose to be night watchmen".

I do think I'm overpaid, considering wage comparisons with other types of work. But then again, earning what I do puts me in a position to contribute more to SOTT and other organizations that do much more "significant" work (imho).
If I could get my upper level manager's position, I would in a heartbeat. Significantly more pay, more time, for a tad bit less work (more work than what he does now but less than my current workload in my current position). I'd be able to increase my contributions and have much more time for the Work.

And one less psychopath (or if not really a psychopath, a "sheeple" at the very least) in an upper level position.

 

[dant]

The following are my personal observations and
it may not apply for others.

Some people are totally dedicated to their company
leaving no personal time for themselves or their family
and tends to be very stressed and very much like a cog
in a machine. Most managers are "owned" by the company,
or so it seems. I very rarely see it otherwise. I have watched
"agents" operating and I have smoked out and exposed "agents"
being a high level [agent] manager myself. It is a serious game
they play. And what a drama it can be.

Do not make the mistake of reporting that to which
needs no reporting. Keep your personal and business
issues totally separate. Do no fall into the trap of divulging
your personal interest - as you have no idea what/how your
boss thinks and what it is they want from you.

It is perhaps best not to use company computers for
personal use - they are easily tracked and monitored.
I know- I was one of those 'monitors'. If you have a
personally owned wireless laptop, keep it in your car
and secured, and take it completely offsite (in other
words do not use the company's wireless connections)
on your break times, lunch included. If you get 1 hour
lunch, then you get one hour of SOTT/Forum use for
your learning - offsite. The point is, it is most likely
that emails, sites visited, IM, etc., etc., are traced and
tracked automatically and for legal reasons - they can
be used against you if so desired. Policy or no policy - so
why expose yourself to potential abuse?

As for "stealing" or stealing - always be aware that office
supplies, computer use, company property is just that and
needs to be treated as such. Keep your personal property
and company property totally separate and never leave personal
property on the company premises - they can be confiscated. If
you follow the basic guidelines mentioned then there is no reason
for feeling guilty, one way or the other. You are giving your company
what they are paying for - your [business] work, your [business] ideas,
your paid time (salaried or not) - but not your non-business-related
personal time. Keep in mind that an engineer is much more restricted
and controlled - and monitored. Your ideas, personal or not, "legally"
belongs to the company whether or not it has anything to do with
the company. The law is mostly in their favor because you signed
such an agreement in order to join. By definition - it is the company's
property - YOUR idea. But they have been legally challenged, and very
few, if any, win. Give each thing their due - and nothing more.

I have worked for many companies and you have all sorts
of crazy things going on and it does not matter if it is a
big, small, private, public, government, or military site - you
have no idea where a "psychopath" works or lives. I have met
some, but not all, and it can be a harrowing experience.

FWIW,
Dan

 

[theos]

As Dant said, it would be wise to practice a bit more strategic enclosure at work. Be more circumspect about what you do on your down time. You are reading "sensitive material" after all. And don't go around telling people that you use your free time on the computer and reading. You could make yourself a target and/or find yourself with more duties :P. Behave as if you are just as busy as everyone else around you. FWIW

Most places do have restrictions on computer use for personal purposes. Some places enforce it less strictly than others. I used to print out SOTT articles and keep them in my pocket and read them during breaks or when the "higher ups" were gone. We had a library where I would go during my lunch breaks and use the computer there.

 

[Buddy]

This is where I'm looking for a little objective feedback.

Personally, I don't see anything bad with what you do in your spare work time. The 'downtime' seems to be in the nature of your job, and I think it's in the nature of people to find something to do that they like when it's possible.

It appears you experienced one of those mirrors that occur in everyday life. Perhaps you were already wondering if you were being a 'slacker' or time thief, or something? Or maybe you were simply surprised at an unexpected way of seeing yourself in your job?

I had a similar experience in a retail environment. The ass't mngr. made a comment about me being a slacker. She was kidding, in a way, and I knew she meant no harm, but I was still embarrased and I started showing more interest in my job, making sure there was absolutely nothing I could find to do before I picked up my book again. It seems I always managed to find something to do, though.


I don't know the answer for you, Ryan, but possibly, the main thing is to stay involved with the Work and the necessary networking, whatever you have to do, and give some more thought to what is in you that might explain why your 'job I sense of yourself' was so unstable.

My reason was laziness, a slothful integration with my responsibilities. It can be different for anybody else.

 

[MichaelM]

I came across this post by Tigersoap on another thread and thought it might also be relevant.
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=6039.msg41653#msg41653

Guys, I used to work in offices a lot and although it's important to do the work assigned to you I also feel that sometimes the "good employee" program starts because you're scared of getting caught procrastinating for example.

I am not saying that slacking off is a good thing but I always kept in mind that sometimes you can give much of your energy to a company that absolutely does not care about you.
Which might not be the case here.

In a way it maybe says a lot about how you feel in your job, it's not uncommon to be totally bored by what you're doing and it's sometimes easier to browse the internet for example.
It can lead to guilt, stress and so on which are imho linked to the "good employee/good son" program.

Still it can be a nice exercise to practice conscious awareness.
But to be frank, I tried to do it in my last job and I failed. I really could not stand it.
I think that's where I got my caffeine addiction.

I suppose you have to prioritize your task during the day while at the same leaving enough breathing space to keep "reading" if you want to. Balance is the key.

I think it as much an energy drain to become the rigid office employee who does not stop until he drops osit.

Emphasis mine. I highlighted the "good employee/good son program" part because I think the "guilt" part of '"stealing" from work' is similar to the quoted post.

 

[RyanX]

[quote author=ma]
I work for a large corporation also and before discovering this forum, I was the kind of person to do anything to improve my company processes even if it is out of my duties. But now, even if I still catch any oppotunity to improve my company processes, I tend to limit only to my duties, devoting the remaining time reading this forum.
[/quote]

I'll admit, when I entered the workforce at 22 I was the same way. It was easy to find extra work too because I worked for such a small company. Over time I learned that the demands can really consume a person and I felt like I had no life outside of work. I had a family at the time and I knew that the situation wasn't sustainable. I think having that experience makes one able to set boundaries with work a little easier. But I'm aware that not everybody has had this experience, like my friend I'm sure.

[quote author=meta]Are you breaking any corporate policy by reading personal material during down time? Are there any policies stating that internet resources are not to be used for personal interests?[/quote]

No, what I'm doing is not against HR policies. There are some uses of the internet that are against policy, but simply reading (either online or from a book) is not one of them thankfully. It's expected that we have this ability just to keep up-to-date on current IT trends and products, which I do occasionally, but even that isn't enough to fill the gaps of downtime that I often have.

[quote author=mada]Regarding your friend, in the past I have pondered this type of personality. One can see it in the example of the aged family retainer who stands by ‘his lordship’ through thick and thin, or in those who unquestioningly support some authoritarian body, local government for example. These people, imho, have a deep seated need to belong to some group or other, and will attach themselves to a group that makes them feel good according to their programming. Or perhaps your friend is just a corporate climber, as you suggest.
[/quote]

The strange thing is that this friend is very "left-leaning" when it comes to most things. However, she seems to have this authoritarian mindset when it comes to her job. The company she works for claims to be very "environmentally conscious", although from what I've read it is really more of a PR smokescreen than anything else. I think that fact probably hooks into her ideology a bit making it seems like whatever is done for the good of the corporation is good for humanity as a whole. I don't believe this is really the case with this company and I know it is certainly not true of the company I work for. She's stated herself that she wants to "climb the corporate ladder", which seems contradictory to most of her leftist ideologies. Her rationalization is that one has to make a living somehow - which I do agree with. However, I don't think one has to dedicate 60+ waking hours of their life a week to a single corporate entity to do this. It is interesting seeing the many "I"s in other people even though I find it difficult seeing them in myself at times.

[quote author=mada]There is another consideration which is more ‘esoteric’. Let’s say that in the course of your reading while at work, you come across a piece of information which you later recall in discussion with another person. You give them this information and it helps them in some way, or perhaps you yourself are able to act on this information and benefit several people. Just an example. I don’t think the situation is quite as easily defined as ‘stealing from work’. There’s the whole human network and exchange to consider, although I’m sure that many companies would say that you (and I for that matter) ought to be doing only company work in company time.[/quote]

I agree! I think this might be the difference between STS work (which is pretty much all corporate jobs from what I've experienced) versus STO work, which involves networking truth and navigating lies.

[quote author=b]I would ask your friend how she feels about people chatting in the corridors or just sharing a joke or whatever, or how she would feel if this was not permitted by company policy. How soul destroying many peoples jobs would be if this were the case![/quote]

If the topic comes up again in our conversation I might ask her this. I have heard her describe her disgust with certain co-workers who "waste time" by gabbing away in certain situations. At the same time though, I know she likes to use internet chat programs at work. I realize nobody is perfect and I hold a lot of contradictions myself. She seems like she would be a reasonable manager for the most part based on other stories she's related to me, but she does seem a little "intense". Maybe it's just the difference in our two lines of work?

[quote author=h]
It so happens that your job is on-call type, where you have periods of high activity and periods of lull. As long as you are not shirking your primary responsibilities and company policy, and doing your share of work when it comes, it is IMO quite OK to read a book when you have nothing to do.

Your friend, being a manager, comes from a different prospective. Distribution center means endless logistics and supervision, and therefore I do see how she wouldn't have a minute free. But she is all too quick to apply it to all areas of work and also to people who are not on the same place in the career ladder as she is, perhaps because she is so personally invested in it.

This brings up two points. One is that some managers have an idea that a person is most productive if every minute of his\her life is dedicated to work, and every free minute brings down productivity. This is why they look down on workplace reading and internet use. This view is micro-managing, controlling and also antiquated: it has roots in a conveyor-belt manufacturing, where indeed a step away from your work station means delay for the whole factory. Most people naturally need breaks in their concentration to then tackle their task with renewed attention. Managers who are more perceptive judge people in their team by the results or their work, not the consistency of motions they go through, which is also IMO more respectful and inspiring.

The other is that your friend may be in for some discoveries of her own. She seems to be dedicated to her work, but does she realize that, at some point in your career, that is no longer enough to progress, while shmoozing and building political alliances becomes important? I wonder whether her "moral principles" would still be immutable were she to give it some thought.

You can learn a lot by talking to a person with a different prospective on things, and may be it will give you some idea on how to optimize your time and learning at work. I think though that you have no reason to make major changes. You are lucky to have a job that allows you to breath. Not defining yourself by the work you do is also, I think, healthy. People who stake their identity on their work have trouble letting go of it. They can't bring themselves to relegate responsibilities or retire when their competence goes down with age, and once they are out of their work environment their cognitive functions goes down rapidly -- I have seen it time and time again, and it's always so sad. [/quote]

Well said Hildegarda! I think the difference in mindset between our two industries plays an important role. One thing about working in IT that has become more widely accepted is that productivity often has to be measured indirectly. In fact they've found that some of the highest performing IT organizations aren't ones where everybody is out to show up everybody else by seeing who can make the best or most efficient changes. Productivity in IT is often a measure of the organization's change control process. In other words, doing less is often doing more because even small undocumented changes can have large unintended consequences. Change control has kind of been the mantra around here the last year or so. I imagine the mindset is much different in distribution. It does sound like factor work the way she describes what her employees do and I can see how one has to work and operate under entirely different principles.

That is a good point about her progressing in her career what what future situations she might encounter. She's already mentioned how she has tried to underhandedly go around her own boss to his boss in order to push through some of her ideas. I was only listening at the time, but now I wonder if I shouldn't say something about this because this is obviously manipulative behavior on her part. I consider her a good person when it comes to things outside of work and I've known her for quite awhile, but it is like she becomes an entirely different person when she is at her job.

I agree, I think that what I'm doing now works and is not hurting anybody. I think the "idol hands" program is one I've certainly acquired and it has been applicable to other jobs I have worked at in the past. In this case, the job situation is different and I have to get around the idea that time is always necessarily money when it comes to all things. Just the fact that her comment about "stealing" bothered me shows that I still have some programming to work through here.

[quote author=mm]I've also managed to "soothe my guilt" after reading one of Dmitri Orlov's articles about his experiences during Russia's depression, and adapting the "dofenism" approach:
(I couldn't find my original links but I manged to google a webpage with the relevant quote
from _http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2009/02/not-giving-a-damn-as-coping-te.html)[/quote]

Thanks for sharing this Michael! In some ways I can see a lot of parallels between the situation that Russia was in back in the 80's versus the US at this point in time. I think it may have to do with people's unconscious recognition of the power of the pathocracy over all aspects of society. When a pathocracy takes hold, it may be a socially evolved adaptation to not give one's talents to further such a pathocracy, but to find ways to use those talents to undermine it.

[quote author=dan]
Most managers are "owned" by the company,
or so it seems. I very rarely see it otherwise. I have watched
"agents" operating and I have smoked out and exposed "agents"
being a high level [agent] manager myself. It is a serious game
they play. And what a drama it can be.
[/quote]

I'm almost scared to ask you where you've worked! :/ I guess my job experiences have been pretty tame for the most part, although reading Snakes in Suits was a real eye opener for me.

[quote author=dan]Do not make the mistake of reporting that to which
needs no reporting. Keep your personal and business
issues totally separate. Do no fall into the trap of divulging
your personal interest - as you have no idea what/how your
boss thinks and what it is they want from you.[/quote]

I wholeheartedly agree! I would certainly not be discussing any of my outside interests at work, except perhaps some of the more accepted ones and only then with co-workers just to carry on a conversation.

[quote author=dan]The point is, it is most likely
that emails, sites visited, IM, etc., etc., are traced and
tracked automatically and for legal reasons - they can
be used against you if so desired. Policy or no policy - so
why expose yourself to potential abuse?[/quote]

I'm well aware of this working in IT. In fact, I know quite a bit about their web tracking and filtering system here. Basically anytime a person tries to access a blocked website it is logged. From what I can tell though, nobody actively monitors this unless there is a legal concern of some type - but this is rare. I work from home half of the time anyways where they do not attempt to block internet traffic, so I try to limit most of my internet activity to those days anyways.

[quote author=c]
As Dant said, it would be wise to practice a bit more strategic enclosure at work. Be more circumspect about what you do on your down time. You are reading "sensitive material" after all. And don't go around telling people that you use your free time on the computer and reading. You could make yourself a target and/or find yourself with more duties. Behave as if you are just as busy as everyone else around you. FWIW
[/quote]

I agree. I was not always as careful as I was in the past regarding strategic enclosure, but these days I run a pretty tight ship. Most of my conversations with co-workers are work or family related and I hardly ever discuss what I'm reading unless it is something fairly mainstream. I tend to do a pretty good job blending in, which is why reading a book here and there in my spare time actually helps in that regard! :D It's a pretty relaxed work culture here.

[quote author=buddy]It appears you experienced one of those mirrors that occur in everyday life. Perhaps you were already wondering if you were being a 'slacker' or time thief, or something? Or maybe you were simply surprised at an unexpected way of seeing yourself in your job?[/quote]

I think you hit the nail on the head here Buddy! This friend actually does a pretty good job of giving me a mirror at times even though I don't think she gets enough mirroring herself. My work career started out working at jobs where time wasted was money lost and I think it's hard to get beyond this mindset. Like I mentioned above, I still have some programming to sort out in this area. At times I do feel guilty that I have all this free time at work and I'm still getting paid for it. I don't like to mention this to many people because I know others have far more demanding employment situations. However, I feel like I'm putting this time to good use by reading up on the topics discussed on here. Being able to share this new knowledge with my friends who are more open to this sort of stuff has probably had a positive effect on the world, even if in a small sense. I know that reading the recommended narcissism and psychology books has made me a better father in a LOT of ways! I can't thank this group enough for this.

Thanks again for the feedback everyone! :)

Ryan

 

[anothermagyar]

I agree with you guys, and really like this:

[quote author=Mada85]You do say that you have a guilty conscience about this. Perhaps it’s not your conscience that is pricking you, but instead could be a societal program – something like: ‘Idle hands are the devil’s workshop’?[/quote]
[quote author=Michael Martin ]In a way it maybe says a lot about how you feel in your job, it's not uncommon to be totally bored by what you're doing and it's sometimes easier to browse the internet for example.
It can lead to guilt, stress and so on which are imho linked to the "good employee/good son" program.[/quote]

It is a program! I'm home a house wife and certain time of the day even when I don't have to cook I feel guilty to read the forum, sometimes takes an hour to read an interesting thread. Time just flies then.

Thanks everyone to pointing at this program! :)

An other thought: I think lately I became very careful what I'm telling to people, generally. Once is external consideration and the other is when our awareness is rising the General Law occurs. We don't know when, how, but works against our development.
That is how I see it.

 

[herondancer]

This is a very interesting thread. I also have a grey situation at work re personal activities at work. A lot depends on the culture imho and especially your immediate supervisor. It's pretty loose here. Heck, even one of the office managers very loudly booked his vacation on the net.

My boss is pretty easygoing. There are insanely busy times and there are times of cross-eyed boredom. The work I do gets done in a timely fashion, and I am willing to go the extra mile for most people. So long as the work is getting done and we "surf nicely" :) she really doesn't care. Let me qualify that. When I have free time, I either have some of the recommended reading burned on discs, or I quietly catch up on the forum and SOTT, though I don't post from work pretty much ever. I've made a certain small show about the "heavy" reading I do, bringing Ponerology, Gnosis or even Secret History and talk about how I am interested in politics, history, psychology and philosophy. This has given an aura of legitimacy to my non-work reading. I'm improving myself! It's certainly not harlequin novels (apologies to those who like them ) or surfing the local hockey team's website. However, one of my co-workers who is also very good and fast at what he does, spends a lot of time playing computer games. About him I have heard her say. "We need to find more for him to do!"

I've also made a point of doing some "good employee" activities, social committee one year, food bank another, once a year quality audits. These all have contributed to the strategic enclosure. I am considered a high-functioning, valued employee (peer recommendations in the internal recognition program really help) and that aura has served well in the time I've been here. No one looks too closely as what I actually do, because the aura tells them what they think I am doing.

So I would say that if you are concerned, and there is some sort of employee participation thing you can do that won't take too much energy. it could be worthwhile to put in an appearance. It's amazing what that sort of thing will do for your image within the corporation. And we know how much image counts for ;D

As for your friend, it seems her pov is driven by her ambition. I hope she will not be find herself in a situation where all her extra effort is being taken advantage of by one higher up on the ladder.

Herondancer

 

[GRiM]

Hi RyanX!

An other thought: I think lately I became very careful what I'm telling to people, generally. Once is external consideration and the other is when our awareness is rising the General Law occurs. We don't know when, how, but works against our development.
That is how I see it.

I think this is a very good idea and add: Wise as a serpent gentle as a dove, I believe its almost impossible to explain to some people that have a certain view of work that there is another way to view it or handle it, It sounds like cheating to them.

We might be in the same boat to some extent, my lesson that I learned from this, is as long as you can see for yourself that it does not impede your work, then there isn't much to say about it imho. They pay me to be able to handle problems that may arise and I have always been able to do that.
I'm currently at collage but I work part-time, night shift, at a hospital now and then. Its a 10 hours "night" and on a good night I can spend 7-8 of those hours reading, thinking and studying. Some nights have been very much stress and problems with little or almost no free time, fortunately they are far between.