Structure. Being systematic.

[andi]

I want to share some thoughts that I am having lately.

Structure, system, organisation, organism, systematic, pattern, organised thought, thought pattern.

I found out, while reading some Gnosis, that I cannot just read it as if it were a newspaper. Instead, I had to go slow and systematic, and by mistake I found something very useful to me. Symbols. I would read a paragraph that is loaded with information and on the side, where many people just write someting to summarise it or put an idea down, I just drew a little symbol. After just a couple of pages, I realised how much cleaner my thinking and understanding was. Basecally, keeping it simple; doing some shortcuts with words and things like that. Then next to me, I had a piece of paper and after the book had passed to a diffrent subject, I just stopped and tried to put all this symbols/annotations together.

What happened was that while trying to put them together, by modifying them, I realised that in some places I have missunderstood and I was forced to go back and reread and rethink the little symbols and try to make sens. My goal was than to put all of them together (just as a play if anything) and come with diagram of my own and what I have understood. Well, this became very difficult and I just had to leave it like that and continue. But after some more pages, something would come and I would go back to the diagram and add or erase ... and so on.

Although this was very captivating, the more I would do the more complicated it would become and found that soon I had to take a brake because I was stuck in my thinking.

By leaving the book down, I started thinking how easy was to answer my own question that I had about my difficulty in expressing thought, cloudiness of thought and even doubt.
It was obvious!, My information and thinking was not structured. Everything is in the wrong place and is chaos. All centers are doing the wrong work and my observations and information are not well organised.

Well, wait a minute! The universe and everything I can look at is structured, organised up to the smallest detail.
Now, imagine for a second how would a flower would look like if it were to grow out of my head as a consequence of my thoughts. It would probably look something like a mutant, with petales all over the place and the roots sticking out.
So, there's got a be some order that I have to make as I go.

I understand that the body and the brain is structuring the information coming from the senses and the experiences it has, but it structures them according to the "Generl Low", so as to serve the purpose of the planetary body.
If I wanted to be able to do more than what is automatic, I have to be more systematic.


Then I thought about the majority of books out there. You know the feeling you get when you have finished a book and you don't even remember how it started. You are all mixed up, but somehow you like the book. Well, paying attention to details that you like to identify with and absorbing the information with your wishfull mind wants to, you decide that you like the book - contrary to the feeling that you get at the end (confused, lost, with a million questions that only distract you from the main subject and what the book was intended to describe).
How may of us put this feeling under the rug...? What is really happening is that the book is just badly structured, ideas don't fallow and the general poprouse of the book is lost because the author has probably no clue to what he is talking about. The author may be in a hurry to get his ideas published and makes up for his lack of understanding by hypnotising the public with precious extravagant ideas that people would like to assume for themselves.

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Just a bit of rant:
How easy it is to be blinded by majestic ideas and not see the reality as it is - and sometime painfully simple. We are thought all this wrong things by our schools, parents, loved ones, etc. and the simples of things are ridiculed and put aside as being infantile.
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from wiki:

Structure is a fundamental and sometimes intangible notion covering the recognition, observation, nature, and stability of patterns and relationships of entities. From a child's verbal description of a snowflake, to the detailed scientific analysis of the properties of magnetic fields, the concept of structure is an essential foundation of nearly every mode of inquiry and discovery in science, philosophy, and art.[1]
A structure defines what a system is made of. It is a configuration of items. It is a collection of inter-related components or services. The structure may be a hierarchy (a cascade of one-to-many relationships) or a network featuring many-to-many relationships.
Biological structure
Chemical structure
Built structure
Musical composition
Social structure
Data structure

Of course, there are many diffrent levels of structure. A box is a structure, a house is one, but a lot more complex.
A psychophat can be very organised, clear and articulate.


Comments welcomed.

 

[Buddy]

I don't know what kind of feedback you're wanting andi, but fwiw, I like the idea about your structure experiments and your thoughts on the subject.

What you said about turning your understanding into symbols is intriguing. This may weird you out, but I once had the idea..."Why don't I do something novel and interesting and reply in pictures and symbols as a way of communicating - demonstrating how I 'compose' structured thought forms that can contain useful information pre-screened for "noise". I could get feedback to fine tune the ability and work on developing some speed. Alas, so far the habit of 'talking too much' is strong. First, I need to perfect "summarizing". :D

On the superficial level, my idea looks like a good one to me, but the details and external consideration issues would probably be a nightmare.

I just wanted to share that because your post brought it all to mind. :)

 

[andi]

Hi Bud,
I'm going for my walk and I want to think of what you said; it sounds like lots of fun. It's interesting how things evolve..., when I first joined the forum, it was my desire to draw my thoughts because it was much more simple and rapid to transmit huge chunks of information that can be understood objectively without the input of the lower emotional center and other unwanted ego signatures; it helps bypass the stereotypical mind .[although different than that of symbols].
But since I have changed my idea of its applicability. It's like a new language that in the beginning helps bypass the conscious mind(the lower conscious mind if I can call it that) and then, when it becomes 2nd nature, it becomes open to the same problems as the word-y language. I believe that it is not important witch "tool" it is used (be it language, pictographs or else), but more how it is used and what I can do with what I have.
I'll give some more thought to it ;)

I don't know what kind of feedback you're wanting andi

I wanted more to share than anything else. :)

 

[Stevie Argyl]

I don't know what kind of feedback you're wanting andi, but fwiw, I like the idea about your structure experiments and your thoughts on the subject.

What you said about turning your understanding into symbols is intriguing. This may weird you out, but I once had the idea..."Why don't I do something novel and interesting and reply in pictures and symbols as a way of communicating - demonstrating how I 'compose' structured thought forms that can contain useful information pre-screened for "noise". I could get feedback to fine tune the ability and work on developing some speed. Alas, so far the habit of 'talking too much' is strong. First, I need to perfect "summarizing". :D

On the superficial level, my idea looks like a good one to me, but the details and external consideration issues would probably be a nightmare.

I just wanted to share that because your post brought it all to mind. :)

Hi Bud

Isn't this how Gurdjieff writes 'Mentation by Form' ?
Curiously after completing his writings and starting teaching again he uses this 'mentation by form' almost excusively in toasts as a teaching device.

But back to writings: Beelzebubs Tales - random examples - Russia chapter - Egyptian sacrifice - eyes thrown into collecting pots - you can ask 'what does ancient egypt represent?' , what eyes' (I's) are sacrificed? etc . Beelzebubs travels to Earth are 'descents' to Saturn 'ascents', Gornahoor Harhrkh needs 'special atmosphere' - next dimension up? etc. Who is the Karapet at Tiflis station: John the Baptist? Gurdjieff?. Whose whistle wakes the people from their reverie ? And does this same whistle/whistler give the 'dogs' their best chance of escape from the dog catcher - those same dogs who might end up in an oven which produces soap?
Meeting with Remarkable men - Is it an autobiography or is it a work book in the language of mentation by form. Is a 'bridge between high mountains' a physical bridge? Is a Mountain or High peak a physical direction or a consciousness direction? Do you tie weights to your feet to 'descend' into 'the sea' to recover 'a pearl' what is this descent and 'where' ? etc
Interesting when words are abandoned and pictures pondered.

 

[Buddy]

Hi Bud

Isn't this how Gurdjieff writes 'Mentation by Form' ?
Curiously after completing his writings and starting teaching again he uses this 'mentation by form' almost excusively in toasts as a teaching device.

Sorry, I don't understand. Could you provide a small example?

But back to writings: Beelzebubs Tales - random examples - Russia chapter - Egyptian sacrifice - eyes thrown into collecting pots - you can ask 'what does ancient egypt represent?' , what eyes' (I's) are sacrificed? etc . Beelzebubs travels to Earth are 'descents' to Saturn 'ascents', Gornahoor Harhrkh needs 'special atmosphere' - next dimension up? etc. Who is the Karapet at Tiflis station: John the Baptist? Gurdjieff?. Whose whistle wakes the people from their reverie ? And does this same whistle/whistler give the 'dogs' their best chance of escape from the dog catcher - those same dogs who might end up in an oven which produces soap?
Meeting with Remarkable men - Is it an autobiography or is it a work book in the language of mentation by form. Is a 'bridge between high mountains' a physical bridge? Is a Mountain or High peak a physical direction or a consciousness direction? Do you tie weights to your feet to 'descend' into 'the sea' to recover 'a pearl' what is this descent and 'where' ? etc
Interesting when words are abandoned and pictures pondered.

Looked at that way, it seems such pictures can mean anything to anyone and are therefore probably useful mainly for practicing and exercising the relective mode of mentation.


I was mainly thinking of two main purposes for creating symbols, pictures or other visual structures for representing an understanding.

First, what andi seems to be describing is creating a structure that represents something he understands. Every bit in that structure will be related to every other bit and to the whole, in a way that andi is satisfied that it stands for something.

When successfully created, any time in the future when andi sees that structure, he will re-cognize something he already understands. At that point, the structure has served it's purpose in a compact, efficient way - that is meaningful to andi.

On the other hand, a symbol or picture structure that is created for communication with others requires a different approach. One must have an understanding of other people's symbol systems so the correct bits (or parts of the picture composition) are chosen and arranged in a meaningful way in some context, osit.

If you were reading a thread and ran into a reply that contained only a picture, a minimum set of expectations you could have would be that the picture was relevant and meaningful within the existing context; that it is somehow related to what came before and to where the thread is generally headed at that point. So context is important, as is a certain attunement between reader and writer as to what is going on so as to prevent unnecessary confusion.

Further, the reader would need to be flexible enough to switch between a linear, linguistic-logic mode to a more non-linear reflective mode and back again for subsequent posts (thus, the external consideration nightmare :)).

 

[andi]

Bud

1 On the other hand, a symbol or picture structure that is created for communication with others requires a different approach. One must have an understanding of other people's symbol systems so the correct bits (or parts of the picture composition) are chosen and arranged in a meaningful way in some context, osit.

2 If you were reading a thread and ran into a reply that contained only a picture, a minimum set of expectations you could have would be that the picture was relevant and meaningful within the existing context; that it is somehow related to what came before and to where the thread is generally headed at that point. So context is important, as is a certain attunement between reader and writer as to what is going on so as to prevent unnecessary confusion.

3 Further, the reader would need to be flexible enough to switch between a linear, linguistic-logic mode to a more non-linear reflective mode and back again for subsequent posts (thus, the external consideration nightmare ).

1,2,3 yes, yes and yes - I completely agree with you.

I remember bjorn(member) was saying that he understands better pictographs, or that it is much easier for him that way. If a conversation wold take place between 2 people well accustomed to one another, than that would probably end up with good results. Anything close to a group would be a disaster or nightmare as you say.



Stevie Argyll, me too I had a really hard time getting what you mean.

 

[andi]

I just want to clarify that I was not really putting emphasis on the -symbols- in my post(not that I don't think it to be a good subject). Symbols would be just one form of structure out of many. The important thing that I found as a consequence of using symbols for annotation was that everything needs to hold a structure, witch brought me (in my mentation) to ''thought structure''; the arrangement of thoughts, their classification, identification and categorization a-la Gurdjieff.

Thought structure - think about what would be like if your pictures on the computer would be all over and have no name, just folders with numbers, no dates no nothing. It would be very frustrating to look for a particular picture. Maybe so frustrating that you just want to give up.

Lets say you need to make a decision, you have different options and you are undecided. So many thoughts come to mind, so many ideas and all they do is confuse you and your decision making. (You may say for a moment that you are smart and you have so many ideas and that you are just such a complex being compared to others who seem to simply choose like that, where in reality it is just an issue having to deal with a lack of order, structure - as the C's would say - "Too many conflicting thought patterns." ) Here, a structured thought pattern would not only help but probably would make the situation clear and simple.

I think that an organised thought pattern would help a lot in observing the self more efficiently and objectively. Just my 2cents.

 

[Buddy]

Anything close to a group would be a disaster or nightmare as you say.

Yep, that's what I was thinking, thus the need for co-linearity and attunement within the group. Essentially, being on the same page and working for the same goals and sharing the same, or similar map of the territory. Makes it easier to communicate on so many levels, osit.

As an aside, today, I was driving my wife to a certain store. We followed a certain car through 2 turns and the third turn was into the parking lot of the store. Before that last turn, I pointed to the car in front and said to my wife: "That lady is following us". She looked at me and said "You mean we're following her?", and I responded: "Well, if you want to look at it linearly!". She got a big laugh and in the middle of the chuckles, she said "You're such a re-re". That made ME laugh.

She likes my silly humor and novel ways of looking at things. That's why I have to go shopping with her. :D

 

[andi]

As an aside, today, I was driving my wife to a certain store. We followed a certain car through 2 turns and the third turn was into the parking lot of the store. Before that last turn, I pointed to the car in front and said to my wife: "That lady is following us". She looked at me and said "You mean we're following her?", and I responded: "Well, if you want to look at it linearly!". She got a big laugh and in the middle of the chuckles, she said "You're such a re-re". That made ME laugh.

Bud, you'r so funny


edit: I just realized that your little story released some blockage that I was not aware of.

 

[Stevie Argyl]

Hi Bud
in allegorical teachings symbols are used. symbolic thinking - mentation by form etc

simple symbol: A bridge - crosses a chasm , crosses a river , links one place to another.
High - higher thought, upper dimension
lower: pearls before swine, lower understanding , mechanical part of intellectual centre

I met a wise man , he said I should put down my heavy 'load' (lower life concerns / identifications) and and seek the 'higher' ground (food diagram) where 'bees' (sages?) made the sweetest 'honey' (being food/ knowledge) , so I left the lower road (everyday life) and left my load behind (identifications) as the bridge was narrow ....... etc ect in same symbolic form.

So for example look at G's Meeting with Remarkable men - there is the story of transporting wolf/sheep/ cabbage across a river - So we have a crossing - is it a river - or a crossing to a higher level of integration/functioning.

What does sheep/ wolf/ cabbage represent? Does the sheep represent finer feeling that risks being devoured by our mechanical intellect?
Why the extra journey?
And is this sheep/emotional centre related to the 'sheep' used to help 'cross' the 'desert' these sheep that the seekers party decide can be fed by food made from a mix of sand and the remains of old ** 'sea' creatures of 'ancient dried up sea* beds ....
(*The Sea is used to represent the unconscious in many cultures)
.

Thats the kinda of idea of symbolism I thought you were on about. Biblical symbolism - awake/sleep high/low etc which spans many cultures not just Christian.



aspect of intellect/emotion centre /mechanical across a river -

 

[Buddy]

Thanks, Stevie. I appreciate the clarification. :)