The Difference Between Paleo and Paleo

dugdeep

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I've noticed, since befriending a number of forum people on Facebook a bunch of people here liking and friending different Paleo diet organizations and groups. I thought that a distinction should be made between our diet, what we call Paleo, and the diet the general public refers to as Paleo.

Essentially, the two dietary approaches share a philosophy - that the ideal diet for humanity should closely resemble the diet we have been eating for the vast majority of our evolution. This is the hunter-gatherer diet which predates farming and all the foods that entails.

In the last 10,000 years, since we began farming, grains have made up the main staple of almost every single culture on the face of the planet. From the Paleo point of view, this is a mistake. I don't need to go over the dangers of grain consumption here, as this is well covered in different threads in a great deal of detail here on the forum (if you don't know what I'm talking about here, mosey on through the Diet and Health section, looking for threads on gluten in particular).

Unfortunately, this is where our Paleo approach and the popular conception of Paleo seems to end. Those at the forefront of the popular approach to the Paleo diet have somehow gotten it in their heads that a low-carb diet is the answer to all human misery. This is simply not the case for reasons I'll outline below.

First off, from the perspective of the philosophy behind the diet, it is rather foolish to believe our Paleolithic ancestors ate low-carb, at least not purposely or for long periods. It is highly probable that our ancestors ate high carbohydrates in the form of starchy roots and tubers, starchy veg like squashes and maybe even some nuts and legumes. It is particularly foolish to believe our ancestors wouldn't have eaten fruit, for example ("oh look, something sweet and delicious growing on a tree. I'd better not eat that since it would bring me out of ketosis and wouldn't adhere to my Paleo diet.").

But none the less, the Paleo movement has morphed itself into the second coming of the Atkins diet with a new philosophical sheen. It's Atkins 2.0, now with theoretical backup! Apparently, no one learned their lessons from the first round of Atkins diets ten years ago and now we're all going to take another crack at it and make all the same mistakes again.

The Paleo people this time around are all holding up "Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes as their bible. And don't get me wrong, it is a fantastic book. It's extremely well referenced, does a masterful job of dissecting the lipid hypothesis and tears apart the calorie theory of weight loss/maintenance. All good points.

However, the book makes one fatal mistake that all the nouveau low-carb peeps are all falling in line and disseminating around the net: the idea that repeated stimulation of the insulin pathway is what leads to metabolic syndrome including weight gain, insulin resistance, type 2 diabetes, obesity, heart disease etc. etc. This is not, in fact, true. It has never been shown conclusively and doesn't really make much sense when you stop to think about it.

Glucose consumption, in other words carbohydrate consumption, causes insulin to be released from the pancreas which then shuttles glucose into the cells. When someone eats refined carbohydrates, this process happens too quickly, leading to excessive insulin release which leads to too much glucose being shuttled into the cells, drastically low blood sugar, hypoglycemia and, ultimately, cortisol release as a last ditch, panic by the body to get blood sugar levels back to normal. This is not a healthy chain reaction, thus the need to avoid refined carbohydrates.

On the other hand, when unrefined starch in the form of whole carbohydrate foods are eaten, in conjunction with all their fibre, minerals, vitamins and all other plant constituents that contribute to our nutrition, this pattern doesn't happen. Glucose is released slowly into the blood, insulin is released in appropriate amounts and just enough glucose is shuttled into the cells without an accompanying severe drop in blood glucose levels. This is a normal, healthy mechanism which does not lead to metabolic syndrome.

The best evidence for this is looking at cultures that eat high starch diets and have no sign of metabolic syndrome. The Piima Indians who live in the mountains and still eat their traditional, very high-starch diet of corn, potatoes, beans and other grains and tubers, along with primarily game meats, for example. They are lean, active, have no sign of obesity, insulin resistance, diabetes or any other hallmarks of Westerner disease. There are many other examples of this, including the Kitavan in Papau New Guinea and many of the tribal populations across China. Traditional, high-starch diets, no sign of Western disease.

So, if not starch, what does cause metabolic syndrome? It's still a bit of a mystery, but the front contenders are refined fructose, cortisol (or an enzyme called 11 beta HSD), some sort of environmental toxicity perhaps (like heavy metals), excessive omega-6 fat consumption, or maybe some sort of combination of these. But it certainly isn't the consumption of unrefined starch. Metabolic syndrome is a modern disease and can therefore not be blamed on things that have been in our diets for millions of years.

The low-carbers love to point out that starch becomes glucose when it's digested. Great, thanks for pointing that out. But glucose doesn't cause insulin resistance. Stimulating the pancreas to produce insulin is not the problem. Your body is supposed to produce insulin when blood glucose levels rise, so that’s normal and healthy. It is insulin resistance that is closely linked to metabolic syndrome and weight gain. Unrefined carbohydrates can be eaten unrestricted and no sign of insulin resistance will ever show up (which brings into question the value of the glycemic index, but that's a tangent not pertinent to the current discussion).

OK, so the low-carb Paleo crowd has it wrong. Big deal. They've got a lot of stuff right: they only eat organic, clean meat and veg, they avoid grains, (most of them) avoid dairy and eggs and their diets are close to lectin-free. Sounds like something we should be on board with.

This would be true, except for the whole low-carb thing. Basically what these guys encourage is a "ketogenic diet." Some might remember this from when the Atkins diet was popular. Basically, when the body is getting severely restricted levels of carbohydrates, it goes into a mode of operation called "ketosis." Ketosis is what happens when the body is converting fat to ketone bodies to be used rather than glucose as its primary fuel for the brain (while the rest of the body can use fatty acids for energy, they can't cross the blood brain barrier. Ketone bodies can, and thus are used as fuel for the brain instead of glucose). You know someone is in ketosis when they have the chemical smell of acetone on their breath. This is the product of ketone bodies being excreted.

Ketosis is a survival mechanism. During long winters or droughts, when vegetation was sparse but animals were still plentiful, we needed a way to survive on just meat. The ketosis mechanism does just that. We can survive just fine in ketosis short term.

Dieters like this sort of diet because you can lose a lot of weight with it (although, the initial ten pounds or so that are lost rapidly and impress people so much are actually all in the form of water and glycogen, not fat). But staying on the diet long term has it's consequences. You can even go a couple of years without noticing any ill effects, but then things start to go south. Basically, metabolism goes way down as thyroid function begins to slow. Fatigue, sluggishness, dry skin, coarse hair or hair that's falling out, raised cholesterol and a low body temperature start to creep in (all symptoms of falling metabolism/low thyroid). Constipation, bad moods, heartburn, cold hands and feet and a whole whackload of other minor but significant health problems start to show up.

And this all makes sense - your body is going into famine mode. From your body's perspective, if you're going long term without eating much in the way of carbs it must mean there is a famine (your body probably couldn't conceive of why anyone would actually do this to themselves on purpose). It slows down metabolism in order to conserve. It ramps up an enzyme in the fat cells of the abdomen to store as much as possible so that there's a fuel source at the ready for all the major organs should food dry up altogether, which is why long term low-carb dieters start to get a potbelly (incidentally, some may recognize this as being a symptom of chronic cortisol release; high cortisol levels being a consequence of low-carb diets). The body is storing for the future.

And, ironically, your body develops insulin resistance. Insulin resistance, when your cells no longer accept insulin's attempts to shuttle glucose into the cells, is likely a mechanism for conservation. Glucose is prevented from going into the cells to be burned for energy so that it can be stored in body fat. This is a starvation mechanism. If your body assumes food is in short supply, it's going to conserve. I say this is ironic because insulin resistance is what low-carb dieters are generally trying to avoid by ditching carbohydrates, yet that's exactly what they get if they go low-carb for long enough.

Incidentally, this is the same process that happens with low calorie diets. The body, assuming it's starving, goes into conservation mode. This is what dieters commonly refer to as the "weight loss plateau" as they stop losing weight and even start to gain some back, the body having gone into starvation mode, slowing metabolism way down and trying to conserve every last speck of food it gets its hands on. This is also accompanied by intense cravings for quick energy foods like fat and sugar, or, in the case of low-carb diets, cravings for carbs.

And when the low-carb or low calorie dieter eventually cracks on their cravings (which they will), they gain weight with a vengeance as the body stores every little thing it can get its hands on - particularly around the abdomen. It takes a long time of eating to appetite on nutritious foods to get your body out of conservation mode by convincing it you're no longer in the middle of a famine. Few people have this kind of patience (or even know this is what is required) and so quickly jump to another diet. But I digress...

Anyway, I guess what I'm saying here is that low-carb diets are not the answer and a distinction really needs to be made between what we call the Paleo diet and what the rest of the world is calling a Paleo diet. Similar philosophy, different in practice. Don't let the name fool you.

So don't be afraid of unrefined carbs! Eat your buckwheat, eat your quinoa, eat your sweet potatoes, squash and turnips. Even eat your fruit (don't listen to Mercola on this one. He fails to distinguish between refined and unrefined fructose to his detriment. Eat as much fruit as you want, but eat it separately from other foods). And eat lots, don't restrict! The diet the network here has come to the conclusion is best for us really is the best - high in good fat, high in protein, high in unrefined carbs. No macronutrient left behind!

Incidentally, a lot of what I've written here I learned from independent health researcher Matt Stone at 180degreehealth.com. His blog, his ebooks and his audios are well worth checking out for anyone who's interested in the nitty-gritty of health like I am (Nutrition Nerd? Guilty as charged :P ). Although I don't agree with everything he says, he's really helped me to see the big picture on a lot of this stuff.
 
dugdeep said:
So don't be afraid of unrefined carbs! Eat your buckwheat, eat your quinoa, eat your sweet potatoes, squash and turnips. Even eat your fruit (don't listen to Mercola on this one. He fails to distinguish between refined and unrefined fructose to his detriment. Eat as much fruit as you want, but eat it separately from other foods). And eat lots, don't restrict! The diet the network here has come to the conclusion is best for us really is the best - high in good fat, high in protein, high in unrefined carbs. No macronutrient left behind!

That's interesting about the fruit -- I remember reading something like this before in this book, and also that there was a seasonal advantage to eating fruit more in the summer (when it would have been most abundant in the past naturally).

Thanks for the extensive overview, dugdeep -- it was very interesting. I remember feeling really wary of Atkin's when it was all the rage -- now I know why.
 
Great summary for everyone, dugdeep. Thanks for your efforts to gather more data and put it all in context.

And thanks for the Lights Out: Sleep, Sugar, and Survival thread link, Shijing. I just glanced through it and will be reading it carefully. Very interesting -- sound like another great book.
 
SeekinTruth said:
Great summary for everyone, dugdeep. Thanks for your efforts to gather more data and put it all in context.

And thanks for the Lights Out: Sleep, Sugar, and Survival thread link, Shijing. I just glanced through it and will be reading it carefully. Very interesting -- sound like another great book.

Thanks Dugdeep.

I definitely recommend reading 'Lights Out: Sleep, Sugar, and Survival'. It is full of a lot of useful knowledge, a book that I often refer back to.
 
dugdeep said:
....

So don't be afraid of unrefined carbs! Eat your buckwheat, eat your quinoa, eat your sweet potatoes, squash and turnips. Even eat your fruit (don't listen to Mercola on this one. He fails to distinguish between refined and unrefined fructose to his detriment. Eat as much fruit as you want, but eat it separately from other foods). And eat lots, don't restrict! The diet the network here has come to the conclusion is best for us really is the best - high in good fat, high in protein, high in unrefined carbs. No macronutrient left behind!

....

Thanks Dugdeep for those distinctions and reasons,

Might be worth pointing out as well that eating these carbs cooked in or with plenty of good fats like ghee, beef tallow, duck fat, etc, may have the benefit of making available to the body fat-soluble minerals that might not be absorb-able otherwise.
 
Thanks a lot for all these explanations, dugdeep! This should be published as an article!

I have a question, though:

dugdeep said:
So don't be afraid of unrefined carbs! Eat your buckwheat, eat your quinoa, eat your sweet potatoes, squash and turnips. Even eat your fruit (don't listen to Mercola on this one. He fails to distinguish between refined and unrefined fructose to his detriment. Eat as much fruit as you want, but eat it separately from other foods).

Why is that? French "hygienists" say it's because fruit (specially apples, melon and watermelon) ferments in the stomach if you eat it together with other foods, causing bloating and slowing the digestion down. Is that so? And if the answer is yes, why? Thanks.


Your post reminded me of this article I read a short while ago:

Atkins Diet 'Dangerous'

August 13, 2003
Daily Mail (London)
by Jenny Hope

THE hugely-popular Atkins Diet is medically unsound and a major health risk, nutrition experts warned yesterday.

They said the high-protein high-fat diet, followed by stars such as Catherine Zeta-Jones and Geri Halliwell, was a giant experiment which could have disastrous effects for millions.

Dr Susan Jebb of the Government-funded Medical Research Council said it would be 'negligent' to recommend it for long-term use and called for research into its safety.

She dismissed the theory behind the diet, that it changes the body's chemistry to burn off fat, as 'pseudo-science'. Adverse effects could include kidney damage and bone loss.

The alert comes from one of the country's leading experts on obesity. Dr Jebb is head of nutrition and health research at the MRC's Human Nutrition Research Centre in Cambridge.

She was speaking at a special summit held in London to warn of the dangers that crash dieting poses to the nation's health.

Dr Jebb said the Atkins Diet was the least healthy of a number of trendy 'faddy diets' followed by people desperate to lose pounds in a hurry. She said: 'Fad diets prey on the overweight, offering quick fixes and psychological tricks. I see no medical benefit at all in them, and in particular the Atkins Diet.

'It is nutritionally incomplete. It works in the short term but so does any diet that reduces the amount of calories eaten.

'The diet is a massive health risk, it's medically unsound. We have no idea what will happen in the long term because no one is evaluating the results of the experiment.

'Obesity is a massive problem in the UK but this is not the way to solve it.' The warning is the latest in a series from health professionals over 'gimmicky' diet regimes, endorsed by celebrities.

A multimillion-pound book industry has grown on the back of claims that extreme eating patterns work.

The Atkins Diet is even challenging Harry Potter for world sales figures books about it are currently in first and third place on the British Hot 100 of online retailer Amazon.

Invented 30 years ago by American Dr Robert Atkins, who died earlier this year, it tells followers to eat vast amounts of meat but severely restrict carbohydrates such as bread, pasta, rice and starchy vegetables.

The theory is that carbohydrates increase the body's production of the hormone insulin, which encourages cells to store fat. This leads to both hunger and weight gain.

Cutting carbohydrates right down, Dr Atkins asserted, turns the body from a carbohydrate-burning machine to one that burns fat.

But Dr Jebb dismissed the claim as 'pseudo-science'.

She said following the diet long-term would mean a dramatic change in eating habits for most people, protein accounts for only around 15 per cent of total calorie intake.

Dr Jebb said: 'It's a profound change and we simply do not know the long-term health implications.

'I certainly think we should be adopting a precautionary principle in terms of public health.' The diet is known to put extra stress on the kidneys, which can lead to kidney stones and more serious damage particularly for those with pre-existing problems they might be unaware of.

There is also a fear of bone problems because the diet encourages the excretion of calcium which would otherwise go to build them.

Although two U.S. studies found the Atkins Diet was safe and effective, Dr Jebb said the dieters involved had been on it for only six months and a year.

She also pointed out that, longer-term, it had proved to be no better at permanent weight loss than a conventional low-fat diet.

Dr Jebb said people had to lose weight sensibly and slowly because 'there is no way to lose a stone in a few weeks without putting your health at risk'.

Among other experts warning about the Atkins Diet is Amanda Wynne of the British Dietetic Association. She says the process of ketosis it triggers where the body burns up stored fat can result in nausea and tiredness, while drastic reduction in carbohydrates can lead to constipation and digestive problems.

Dr Jebb's colleague Toni Steer says: 'If you don't eat fruit and veg, you are excluding a lot of essential minerals and vitamins.

'And we know that consuming these foods reduces your risk of cancer and cardiovascular disease.' Professor David Barker, a specialist in foetal health at Southampton University, has warned that mothers-to-be who follow such diet regimes are putting their baby's health at risk.

The diet would deprive an unborn child of essential nutrients and raise the risk of heart disease, diabetes and strokes in adulthood.

Dr Jane Ogden, a reader in health psychology at King ' s College, London, told yesterday's meeting the Atkins Diet was popular because weight watchers could follow the instructions to the letter.

She said: 'What fad diets do is tell people in black and white what they can and can't do, and they identify with that.'
 
Thanks for the detailed article dugdeep. So we should eat our carbs, but I wonder when they start to become a problem for candida?
 
Ailén said:
Thanks a lot for all these explanations, dugdeep! This should be published as an article!

I have a question, though:

dugdeep said:
...SNIP... Eat as much fruit as you want, but eat it separately from other foods).

Why is that? French "hygienists" say it's because fruit (specially apples, melon and watermelon) ferments in the stomach if you eat it together with other foods, causing bloating and slowing the digestion down. Is that so? And if the answer is yes, why? Thanks.

May I take a shot in answering that ?

Re: Eating Fruits - Learn and Live
 
agni said:
Ailén said:
Thanks a lot for all these explanations, dugdeep! This should be published as an article!

I have a question, though:

dugdeep said:
...SNIP... Eat as much fruit as you want, but eat it separately from other foods).

Why is that? French "hygienists" say it's because fruit (specially apples, melon and watermelon) ferments in the stomach if you eat it together with other foods, causing bloating and slowing the digestion down. Is that so? And if the answer is yes, why? Thanks.

May I take a shot in answering that ?

Re: Eating Fruits - Learn and Live

From what I recall from Food Combining - fruit is eaten 4 hours after finishing eating Protein/Fats/Carbs, and Protein/Fats/Carbs are eaten 20 mins after finishing eating fruits. Sweet fruits should be eaten after other fruits, and liquids are to be avoided with or immediately following a meal.
 
Thanks for the kudos, guys. I'd love to do this up as an article at some point.

And thanks for the 'Lights Out: Sleep, Sugar, and Survival' suggestion Shijing. That's one I'm definitely going to have to check it out. I can definitely see the logic in eating fruit seasonally.

And just to show how pervasive this low carb stuff is becoming, this article was posted on SOTT a couple of days ago - http://www.sott.net/articles/show/217235-Everything-you-thought-you-knew-about-food-is-WRONG

Myth: Starchy carbohydrates should be the main building blocks of our diet

We've been told that carbohydrates such as rice, pasta, bread and potatoes should form the bulk of what we eat. The trouble with this, says Zoe Harcombe, is that as carbs are digested, they are broken down into glucose.

This process makes your body produce insulin, in order to deal with the extra glucose. One of insulin's main roles in the body is fat storage, so whenever you eat carbs, you are switching on your body's fat-storing mechanism. Whatever carbs you don't use up as energy will be quickly stored away in the body as fat.

Although the rest of the article is mostly in agreement with the dietary recommendations found here (other than one section denigrating fibre), this paragraph sticks out like a sore thumb! The low carb thing is really making a comeback.

Ailén, what agni and Trevizent said is right - I was suggesting one eat fruit separately based on food combining. I should have been more detailed about it in my explanation. I think that, for the most part, food combining is really something that only needs to be undertaken when one has a compromised digestive system, but the fruit rule seems to be something to keep in mind. Fruit being high in sugar, has a tendency to mix with other foods and cause fermentation in the stomach. Some people seem to not be bothered by this, but for some it causes digestive upset, gas, bloating, etc.
 
A bit late here, but I would like to thank you for your comprehensive explanation on Paleo versus Paleo dugdeep. Very useful information, and it clarified quite a few things for me.

herondancer said:
Sounds like a good article for SOTT and the DCM! Thanks for the summary.

I think so too.
 
Hi Dugdeep,

Very good summary. I am turning a litle confused with my diet, but it is great to know that you can
eat as much fruit as you like. I am very found of it.
 
dugdeep said:
Ailén, what agni and Trevizent said is right - I was suggesting one eat fruit separately based on food combining. I should have been more detailed about it in my explanation. I think that, for the most part, food combining is really something that only needs to be undertaken when one has a compromised digestive system, but the fruit rule seems to be something to keep in mind. Fruit being high in sugar, has a tendency to mix with other foods and cause fermentation in the stomach. Some people seem to not be bothered by this, but for some it causes digestive upset, gas, bloating, etc.

Thanks for clarifying that aspect and for the links. But still, what about candida issues, like 3D student mentioned?

Since we are talking Paleo, I have a hard time imagining our ancestors eating so much fruit. There would have had no means of preserving it. So, maybe we should rather eat only seasonal fruits, and in moderation? I know for myself that if I eat a lot of fruit my blood sugar goes crazy. I can feel dizzy if I eat very sweet fruit on an empty stomach. :huh:
 

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