The dynamic of depression and ecstacy

[foofighter]

Not sure where to post this, or whether it is of any use at all, but here goes.

I think I am (finally) beginning to "get" the dynamic between the so-called evil and suffering of this world and the possibility of good and the ecstacy related to this. In the state I am now, seeing the darkness around me, and the almost absolute mechanicalness of man, one cannot help but be depressed and sad about it all, while simultaneously accepting that it all just "is what it is". But this state of depression and suffering is just that, a state. And it is possible, it seems, to move from one state to another, both of them being states of suffering. One state of suffering to another.

But, and this seems to be the key point if I got this right, in this action (or "reaction", due to the mechanicalness of it all) there is a shimmer of good, of ecstasy. In doing something for another, to alleviate the state of suffering just one little bit, to another slightly less suffering state, that particular process involves a feeling (if not actual) sense of ecstacy. Of joy. Of doing something useful.

So, while we at all times find ourselves immersed in this reality of suffering, of depression at different levels, it is still possible to experience joy when moving through these levels, and in particular in helping others move from one level to another.

It is then not useful, it seems, to think about "good vs evil", but rather to think of ALL states as being inherently "evil" (in lack of a better term), and the transition between them as being either "good" or "non-good", depending on the objective difference of suffering between the two subsequent states. The active good needs the passive evil in order to function, as always.

Or so I think, keeping in mind that "I" don't "think" at all in the first place.

 

[PepperFritz]

In doing something for another, to alleviate the state of suffering just one little bit, to another slightly less suffering state, that particular process involves a feeling (if not actual) sense of ecstacy. Of joy. Of doing something useful.

The sentiment you express above inspires very mixed responses in me, and I'm going to use it as an opportunity to talk about a "Program" that I have been working hard on for the last couple of years. I do not in any way mean to imply that it is YOUR program (as I don't know anything about you).

Having always been a "helper" by nature, and an "over-helper" at times, the challenge for me has been to learn to discern when to "help" and when not to; when "helping" is truly serving others in an STO manner, and when it is rather muddied by one's own "enabler" programs, and by the desire for the "feel good" reward (all very STS). And, of course, there is the issue of free will and the importance of helping only when help is asked for, in order to avoid imposing my own will (about what is BEST) on another individual's life.

I have found this process difficult at times. I used to be a "helping" junkie, and it has taken a lot of discipline to learn to practice restraint and to analyze both the situation and my own motivations before acting (or not acting). And because it is my current "lesson", the universe keeps throwing situation after situation at me, and each one seems to involve more and more subtle discernments and decisions. In fact, one of the reasons that I decided to join this Forum as an active member (rather than just a lurker) was to maybe get some feedback from other members on some of these situations as they come up. Sometimes I'm not sure whether I am making the right decisions, but of course I realize it is all part of the learning process. Because we are all STS at this stage in our development, we are not capable of "pure" STO acts, but I believe it is part of the Work to become more aware of our STS motivations and at least try to be *less* STS in our behaviour.

I would be most interested in hearing about others' work and experiences in this area.

Question to moderators: For future reference, would this section ("The Work") be the appropriate place to post messages on this subject?

 

[foofighter]

Having always been a "helper" by nature, and an "over-helper" at times, the challenge for me has been to learn to discern when to "help" and when not to; when "helping" is truly serving others in an STO manner, and when it is rather muddied by one's own "enabler" programs, and by the desire for the "feel good" reward (all very STS). And, of course, there is the issue of free will and the importance of helping only when help is asked for, in order to avoid imposing my own will (about what is BEST) on another individual's life.

Well, I can only agree with your questions and doubts. In trying to move from one level of suffering to another lesser level of suffering, it is our responsibility, as someone supposedly attempting to strive towards STO, to consider these things. There are definitely methods in approaching this, and asking oneself the questions you outline is a very good start I think. In general, using the methods of questions is something I have found to be very useful, as it allows one to convey insights without unnecessarily violating someone elses free will in the matter. I guess this is why psychologists so often do their work in a question-answer sort of way, and is probably also why much of the C's material is only provided when Laura et al managed to ask the "right" questions.

Thinking of these things is part of the task I think, and which in itself is part of the joy of minimizing evil and working towards goodier states

 

[JonTheSlinger]

Interesting post there ! The thing that i have understood is that when i help (or helped) others with totally unconsious (or foolish pseudo-consciouness) i feel this awful sensation in the body (swarming) and heart (a fear like a foolish romantic love), maybe because i did too make "free will killing" in past times... This makes me come to the idea that maybe some pathologic attachments are strongly or dimly activated...

The idea of a potential problem that come into my mind reading your explication about helping others and about the concepts of STO and STS, is, and it joins very well the last sentences above, the problem of the others asking so badly for help, a help that could possibly be pathologic in essence, causing them to make "supplications" and thus be in a "crusade" to "free-will" killing...there, i am referring to the parents (for exemple)... and the problem that i am encountering is whether or not help if i don't want to... i don't like it, something i am in a very sick state of feeling... and all the coaxing of the parents, and all the morals that they say about it could do nothing but support the hypocrite and STS helping of others (yep, they are moments when they are emphasing about "folk this, folk that," and this without realizing that they also make part of these so-called "folk", us, the humains - STS, through). Well i don't know really there what is ok or what is not... And the problem of helping others suggests also the idea (more precisely) of the psychopaths trying to disturb peoples... I think you guys were more precisely talking about helping others in the work... but i suppose this is not too off-topic trough :D... OK, i think i'll stop there...

 

[PepperFritz]

... the problem of the others asking so badly for help, a help that could possibly be pathologic in essence, causing them to make "supplications"...

Well, I raised the "asking" issue in reference to being mindful of not imposing one's "help" where it has not been requested and/or is not wanted. That was not meant to imply that one must then automatically give "help" whenever it is asked for. For, as you point out, the "help" that is being asked for may not be "helpful" at all. That's where discernment and self-awareness comes in, questions must be asked: Is what this person is asking for truly going to help them in the long-term? Will it end up being harmful to others, including the "giver"? Generally speaking, the "help" should be of benefit to all involved, and should be questioned if benefits one party to the detriment of another. And, of course, when I use words like "benefit" and "detriment", I mean that in relation to a person's overall soul development/awakening, and not just short-term material gain or avoidance of pain/discomfort.

There, i am referring to the parents (for exemple)... and the problem that i am encountering is whether or not help if i don't want to....

Such situations are complex, and require much soul-searching. It requires insight into the soul lessons of both you and your parents at this point in your lives, to come to an understanding of what would be "best" for all of you. Again, a general rule of thumb, I believe, is that the giving should be offered freely (and not just coerced), and genuinely be for the benefit of both parties, in the larger sense.

A brief example: Parents are elderly, and demand that it would be the "right thing to do" for the son to not leave home, and instead live at home to look after their physical needs. If this were to detrimentally affect the soul development of the son, who at that point in his life needs to branch out on his own, be independent, etc., then it is not best for all. Other options are probably available that will both ensure that the parents are looked after, while not adversely affecting the son's life. On the other hand, a middle-aged son may, for karmic and other reasons, come to believe that it is important to his soul development to move home and care for his parents, in order to learn lessons in patience, empathy, etc., in which case the help requested and the help given is in sync. This is an extremely simplistic scenario, of course, and most real-life ones are extremely complex. Every situation is unique.

I think you guys were more precisely talking about helping others in the work... but i suppose this is not too off-topic trough....

No, I don't think it is off-topic at all. I think you raise very pertinent points.

 

[JonTheSlinger]

Such situations are complex, and require much soul-searching. It requires insight into the soul lessons of both you and your parents at this point in your lives, to come to an understanding of what would be "best" for all of you. Again, a general rule of thumb, I believe, is that the giving should be offered freely (and not just coerced), and genuinely be for the benefit of both parties, in the larger sense.

Well, i am a little bit confused there... i'll take an exemple i experienced lately :

my parents asked me to help friends of them to discharge materials for their house from the car to it... i helped them alot of times before for the same reason (some work in their home) but they ask me every time for help... it is my father that wants to employ me and pay me too (he's a mason, not freemason :D), because it is a huge job to do... i don't want to do this... always hearing my father emphasing himself when we're working makes me neurotic ! The thing is that if i do it one time he'll want again and again... he wanted that i work for him... so, if i don't want there to work with him... and sure i don't need their coaxing either... i don't have to ? I don't think it will help them to have a good child ! They need crazy hard chocks !! See, is this really so bad like they say ? They are more sad about it than some irakies being killed... It's like what Stalin said : one person die, it's a tragedy. Alot of persons die, it's a statistic... they have to see the one that is a tragedy to open their eyes... Sure they were sad about it, being cool and all, but if i do it, they'll become again like everytime, always screaming, speaking, speaking, emphasing ! Damn, i feel really neurotic sometimes...

I was wondering whether or not they were sucking my lifeforce in a certain way... they act very coolish and when they don't have what they want, mostly my father who when we're against him becomes crazy, and then are mad ! I was thinking about psychopathy or something of this case, considering all the things my father did and how he acts, damn, i'm confused there !

Well, i think is it a bit off-topic there... if not, a bit too subjective... but i think i have to speak about things like that, because it oppresses me, sometimes my mind go blank, damn ! :D OK, OK... i feel lost... i'll stop there, i could not stop this subjective speech...

 

[PepperFritz]

Well, i am a little bit confused there... i'll take an exemple i experienced lately...

I'm sorry, but I'm having difficulty following the thought of your post, as it appears that English is not your first language. And perhaps it is a little too "subjective" for a forum of this nature (not sure, I'm rather new here myself). I'll just say that your relationship with your parents, and particularly your father, sounds very complex and difficult.