The Secret Within Music:Gurdjieff, Steiner, the Sufis: Music by Laurence Galian

webglider

Dagobah Resident
Every since I read In Search of the Miraculous many years ago, I've been fascinated by the concept of the law of octaves. I have a general understanding of it, but somehow do not yet know how to consciously apply it to my life.

Today, I found a video the title of which is the subject of this thread. I did a search for Laurence Galian, and found nothing on Sott.

I felt that Galian was imparting a lot of important information concerning the relationships between

micro and macrocosms in this videos which seem to differ only by scale. I would really appreciate feedback about the validity and usefulness of this information or correction if I've misinterpreted any of the information.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWIrSwcZ4aw&feature=related

I found some information on Galian on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Galian

The music in the video was composed by Galian. However, I found this piece by Gurdjieff which I also stumbled on today much more evocative and inspiring. No disrespect to Galian. I can't tell if my preference is objective or subjective based on my own development and level of understanding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RupTHCkh0zM&feature=related

I'm wondering if it is possible to include sacred music within the Work that we do here on this forum.

Just a thought.
 
webglider said:
I'm wondering if it is possible to include sacred music within the Work that we do here on this forum.

Just a thought.

That would depend, as always, on one's understanding of 'sacred music'. The Law of Octaves, to my understanding, is much more about energy, development and the action of man (and the forces that act upon man) than it is about literal music, though it can be represented in musical compositions. I often listen to Gurdjieff's compositions and find them to be contemplative and restorative, but that's just my experience.
 
webglider said:
Every since I read In Search of the Miraculous many years ago, I've been fascinated by the concept of the law of octaves. I have a general understanding of it, but somehow do not yet know how to consciously apply it to my life.

Today, I found a video the title of which is the subject of this thread. I did a search for Laurence Galian, and found nothing on Sott.

I felt that Galian was imparting a lot of important information concerning the relationships between

micro and macrocosms in this videos which seem to differ only by scale. I would really appreciate feedback about the validity and usefulness of this information or correction if I've misinterpreted any of the information.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWIrSwcZ4aw&feature=related

I found some information on Galian on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Galian

The music in the video was composed by Galian. However, I found this piece by Gurdjieff which I also stumbled on today much more evocative and inspiring. No disrespect to Galian. I can't tell if my preference is objective or subjective based on my own development and level of understanding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RupTHCkh0zM&feature=related

I'm wondering if it is possible to include sacred music within the Work that we do here on this forum.

Just a thought.

My personal sense is that it is simply important to understand that there ARE "relationships between micro and macrocosms ... which seem to differ only by scale".

As an experiment, have you ever listened to any of these compositions while reading or studying material related to the Work? I've done it with classical music (Mozart seems to work best) and have experienced easier and more fluid integrations of ideas that remind me of how some autistic people learn: facts and factlets seeming to fit themselves into wider and wider contexts until you get a sense of a hologrammic understanding; that is, whenever you (want to) recall something, you can easily find a pointer to it from anywhere in your current thinking process as all is non-linearly connected anyway.

Everyone is different though, but it seems that there are definite musical equations that help the learning process more so than others and more so than not.
 
Quote from Buddy:

My personal sense is that it is simply important to understand that there ARE "relationships between micro and macrocosms ... which seem to differ only by scale".

As an experiment, have you ever listened to any of these compositions while reading or studying material related to the Work? I've done it with classical music (Mozart seems to work best) and have experienced easier and more fluid integrations of ideas that remind me of how some autistic people learn: facts and factlets seeming to fit themselves into wider and wider contexts until you get a sense of a hologrammic understanding; that is, whenever you (want to) recall something, you can easily find a pointer to it from anywhere in your current thinking process as all is non-linearly connected anyway.

Everyone is different though, but it seems that there are definite musical equations that help the learning process more so than others and more so than not.

Thanks Buddy for this suggestion. As I read your post, I realized that maybe if I try to learn in a non-linear way, I may make some progress. I have felt stuck for several years wanting to advance and break through this prison which I have somehow constructed for myself. Music and art would most likely help me perceive the world in a non-linear way. I feel trapped by words. I feel as though I'm in a cage and can't get out.

As for the impetus that caused me to write the post in the first place, it evolved from my understanding of Gurdjieff's octave and that there are specific intervals which, if the appropriate work is not done at the right time in the right way, entropy will set in.

I've noticed that every once in a while something happens here that changes everything, by adding a new branch to the work already done. The first change I noticed was several years ago with the introduction of FOTCM. Then after that came the changes on the Sott News Page to include channeled material. And most recently is the idea of the Sott live interactive radio show.

All this is a powerful example of conscious work. I'd like to do this in my own life. I think my recent trip to England to participate in a crop circle tour was my way of trying to prevent myself from falling into entropy. Since I've been back, I've been stuck again, kind of depressed, but also hopeful that I'll be able to break out of whatever it is that is stifling my growth.

quote from

Quote from: webglider on July 04, 2012, 02:05:36 PM


I'm wondering if it is possible to include sacred music within the Work that we do here on this forum.

Quote from harneloot:

Work is done in life, not on a message board.

harneloot, I don't know how long you've been here, but at some point you will come to the understanding that this forum is much much more than a "message board".
 
harneloot said:
webglider said:
I'm wondering if it is possible to include sacred music within the Work that we do here on this forum.

Work is done in life, not on a message board.

This is a great example of what sort of fruit Alex Kahan's "fourth way group" in NYC produces - so thank you for the demonstration, harneloot. A machine pretending to be a "man" so clearly demonstrated in only 4 posts.
 
webglider said:
As I read your post, I realized that maybe if I try to learn in a non-linear way, I may make some progress. I have felt stuck for several years wanting to advance and break through this prison which I have somehow constructed for myself. Music and art would most likely help me perceive the world in a non-linear way. I feel trapped by words. I feel as though I'm in a cage and can't get out.

...

I've noticed that every once in a while something happens here that changes everything, by adding a new branch to the work already done. The first change I noticed was several years ago with the introduction of FOTCM. Then after that came the changes on the Sott News Page to include channeled material. And most recently is the idea of the Sott live interactive radio show.

All this is a powerful example of conscious work. I'd like to do this in my own life. I think my recent trip to England to participate in a crop circle tour was my way of trying to prevent myself from falling into entropy. Since I've been back, I've been stuck again, kind of depressed, but also hopeful that I'll be able to break out of whatever it is that is stifling my growth.

Looks to me like your description of the problem may also contain the answer you're looking for.

Why not reread the above and compare that 'example of conscious work' with your description of your personal experience during and after the trip to England. Ask yourself if a part of you might have felt more awake during this 'novel' experience and then simply went back to sleep when you returned to 'old routines'. Not saying this actually happened...just think about it if you want to.

Mark Hedsel's book also contains an example of a 'Thatrug' dance done to certain 'music'. One idea underlying this practice being to force oneself into the highest levels of conscious awareness possible by making it utterly impossible to coordinate your movements without this capacity.
 
webglider said:
Thanks Buddy for this suggestion. As I read your post, I realized that maybe if I try to learn in a non-linear way, I may make some progress. I have felt stuck for several years wanting to advance and break through this prison which I have somehow constructed for myself. Music and art would most likely help me perceive the world in a non-linear way. I feel trapped by words. I feel as though I'm in a cage and can't get out.

As for the impetus that caused me to write the post in the first place, it evolved from my understanding of Gurdjieff's octave and that there are specific intervals which, if the appropriate work is not done at the right time in the right way, entropy will set in.

I've noticed that every once in a while something happens here that changes everything, by adding a new branch to the work already done. The first change I noticed was several years ago with the introduction of FOTCM. Then after that came the changes on the Sott News Page to include channeled material. And most recently is the idea of the Sott live interactive radio show.

All this is a powerful example of conscious work. I'd like to do this in my own life. I think my recent trip to England to participate in a crop circle tour was my way of trying to prevent myself from falling into entropy. Since I've been back, I've been stuck again, kind of depressed, but also hopeful that I'll be able to break out of whatever it is that is stifling my growth.
Yeah we all really do seem to live out our own Odyssey-like initiation. Fundamentally I think the laws of octaves/three are actual math that can be applied in different areas (music, physics, psychology, initiation,etc.). It is non-linear math; for intitiation this perhaps means you don't get all your purification shocks done, then all your death of self shocks done, then all your gnosis shocks done; they all get jumbled together lots it seems. For me it seems like there were some purification obstacles (technical, working with others) that got me here in a way that allowed me to be somewhat colinear.

Doing things at the right time could be related to the guest/host/theoxeny/hospitality aspect of how you work with others. So that's kind of gnosis going on plus there's the I'm not in Kansas any more surreal feel that's kind of the death of the old self. Once here there can be the horror of the situation, the horror of yourself, empathy with the horror, death of self aspect and how you deal with that as a purification obstacle allowing gnosis at key times maybe. So it does seem to be quite an up and down non-linear process.
 
Quote from Buddy:

Why not reread the above and compare that 'example of conscious work' with your description of your personal experience during and after the trip to England. Ask yourself if a part of you might have felt more awake during this 'novel' experience and then simply went back to sleep when you returned to 'old routines'. Not saying this actually happened...just think about it if you want to.

Buddy, thank you again for your comments which serve as a catalyst to inspire me to go further than I had set out to go.

To be honest,I don't think I was more conscious during this trip - I just felt more alive and present than I usually do.

I have been stuck for a long, long, time and the reason, I realized when I read this in the quote from Bluelamp, may be due to this:

Doing things at the right time could be related to the guest/host/theoxeny/hospitality aspect of how you work with others.

The most important thing that happened on this trip was two conversations I had with two different people who both pointed out to me the co-dependent nature of the dynamics between my daughter and myself, (which could be extended to include the dynamics between myself and everyone else on the planet.

One of the markers of this syndrome is the need to be in control, to "fix things"to
"make things better". But what may like altruism isn't really altruism - it's the need to fix everything in a certain way for others not so much for them, but for the co-dependent who simply can't feel good unless everything is okay from the perspective of the co-dependent. It's often not okay from the perspective of the person who is the focus of the co-dependent's attentions.

Being able to see myself through this lens is real gift. It is also, at the same time, really depressing to look back on my life and see myself as others must have seen me. I let myself be exploited, I didn't allow myself any joy because I felt I had to fix everything for everybody else first, and I was hurt not understanding why people were mad at me when I only meant the best for them.

So what happened when I came home is that I began going to the anonymous co-dependent meetings - I've been home three weeks and I've gone to three meetings. Basically the heart of the meetings is when everyone shares. Thank God no one gives advice. I can't imagine anything worse than a whole roomful of co-dependents giving advice to each other or trying to "help" in other ways.

Listening to the stories really helps though it's sometimes quite draining. I've spent several hours each afternoon just sleeping, I'm so exhausted from trying to take this all in.

I'm really happy that I took the trip to England. It made me realize how narrow I've allowed my life to become, and how my co-dependent behavior is stifling me and others. And the best part is that I did make a lot of friends on the trip, some of whom understand what I'm going through because they've been there themselves and know what my issues are and like me anyway. And I'm still communicating with many of the others who have no idea of any of this, and continue to share their thoughts on crop circles and other things with me and each other.
 
Going by your comments, apparently I was the object of a co-dependent's attention years ago during a relationship that eventually broke up. If I had known the term 'co-dependent' then, I might have been able to point her to help. I just saw her as inside out; reversing the meaning of everything. She saw her self-centeredness as self-sacrifice; imposing thoughts and ideas and corrections on me and others was interpreted as 'freely giving' and my non-verbal feedback of discomfort with this non-stop behavior was interpreted as 'misunderstanding' her intentions meaning she needed to try harder.

Anytime I said something to her, I was immediately accused of doing that very thing to her, so I felt guilty and continued to practice what I thought was tolerance. I blame my ignorance of the condition for the length of the relationship (several years), and during this time, it was such a source of misery and guilt for me, I'd have rather had to deal with straightforward bully behavior.

Don't know if you're aware of this, but webmd has some interesting notes on the subject. Although the example used is about marriage, a writer does point out the irony involved in the overcoming process:

It’s ironic that the person who wants to stay there forever and give and give has to say ‘OK, I’m through. I’m done. I’m leaving,’ before the partner will turn around and say ‘Oh, wait a minute, I really do care about you,’ ” Tessina says.
_http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/features/signs-of-a-codependent-relationship?page=2

Regarding the Law of Octaves, why not try on some musical metaphors and look at co-dependent behavior as a 'program' or 'song'? That way you might use your self-observations to isolate the constituent 'notes' (thought, feeling and physical behavior patterns) of your particular version of this 'song', including the order they're played, which notes sound together and what note the tune resolves on (feeling about self) and how it compares to the note (a feeling about yourself) that it started on. Perhaps in some way the irony might be realized when, instead of returning to the beginning for another play through, you can end the tune on the same note one octave up where your frequency has become doubled and doesn't fall back.

Just some thoughts.
 
quote from Buddy:

Regarding the Law of Octaves, why not try on some musical metaphors and look at co-dependent behavior as a 'program' or 'song'? That way you might use your self-observations to isolate the constituent 'notes' (thought, feeling and physical behavior patterns) of your particular version of this 'song', including the order they're played, which notes sound together and what note the tune resolves on (feeling about self) and how it compares to the note (a feeling about yourself) that it started on. Perhaps in some way the irony might be realized when, instead of returning to the beginning for another play through, you can end the tune on the same note one octave up where your frequency has become doubled and doesn't fall back.

Just some thought

It was very prescient of you to have written this, Buddy, because what you suggest here is exactly what happened to my daughter and me yesterday.

Yesterday morning my daughter came to me and said that she doesn't feel right having the only bedroom anymore, and suggested that she move into the living room where I've been sleeping all her life, and I take the bedroom.

This actually became a really fun project, where we worked together figuring out how I could use the living room to entertain friends, something I used to do a lot, but because our living arrangements have been so awkward, I have felt uncomfortable having people over.

She figured out a way of dividing the living room into sections where we could create a space for her to sleep, and a space for me to entertain. On the occasions that I have people over, she could sleep in my newly reclaimed bedroom, and I could sleep on the couch in the newly divided living room if people left really late. I was really impressed with her ability to visualize and utilize space. We looked through catalogs and spoke for hours. And then later she said, "You know mom, I feel like it's soon going to be time for me to leave and move out."

This was the first time she ever broached this subject on her own, and although I feel kind of sad, I feel really happy for her that she feels confident enough to want to begin the process of going off on her own.

As all of this is going on, I have also been addressing ways of understanding and escaping from the co-dependency syndrome. So when she stated that she wanted to leave, I did not take over. I just left it to her to figure out how she is going to manage. She is pretty smart especially in ways that I'm not, and anyway, these times that she's living in are not the same as the ones that I matured into. Everything is different, and although there are certain principles which are universal - don't get into debt, for example, there are many changes out there that she will have to figure out on her own because I just don't know the lay of the land anymore. it's very different than it was when I was her age.

Buddy writes:

Going by your comments, apparently I was the object of a co-dependent's attention years ago during a relationship that eventually broke up. If I had known the term 'co-dependent' then, I might have been able to point her to help. I just saw her as inside out; reversing the meaning of everything. She saw her self-centeredness as self-sacrifice; imposing thoughts and ideas and corrections on me and others was interpreted as 'freely giving' and my non-verbal feedback of discomfort with this non-stop behavior was interpreted as 'misunderstanding' her intentions meaning she needed to try harder.


Anytime I said something to her, I was immediately accused of doing that very thing to her, so I felt guilty and continued to practice what I thought was tolerance. I blame my ignorance of the condition for the length of the relationship (several years), and during this time, it was such a source of misery and guilt for me, I'd have rather had to deal with straightforward bully behavior.

In the book Codependent No More, Melody Beattie says this about the psychological landscape of the co-dependent personality that gives rise to the behavior exhibited by your former girlfriend.

Reacting usually does not work. We react too quickly, with too much intensity and urgency. Rarely can we do our best at anything in this state of mind. I believe we are not called on or required to do anything in this state of mind. There is little in our lives that we need to do that we cannot do better if we are peaceful. Few situations - no matter how greatly they appear to deserve it - can be bettered by us going beserk.

Why do we do it then?

We react because we're anxious and afraid of what has happened, what might happen, and what is happening.

Many of us react as though everything is a crisis because we have lived with so many crisis for so long that crisis reaction has become a habit.

We react because we think things shouldn't be happening the way they are.

We react because we don't feel good about ourselves.

We react because most people react.

We react because we think we have to react.

We don't have to.

We don't have to be so afraid of people...

We don't have to forfeit our peace. We have the same resources available when we're peaceful that are available to us when we're frantic and chaotic.

Actually, we have more resources available because our minds and emotions are available to us as when we're frantic and chaotic. Actually we have more resources available because our minds and emotions are free to perform at peak level.

We don't have to forfeit our power to think and feel for anyone or anything. That is also not required of us.

I wish I had been able to learn this earlier, but I'm extremely fortunate that I am beginning to learn this now. I thought that I was expected to become so emotional because that is what I saw growing up. I really believed that if you cared about someone, you showed it by trying to get them to do the right thing.
It never occurred to me to question my understanding of what the right thing might be for someone else.

Having said all this, I do think that I am starting on another octave, and that things will get better - if not in the world, hopefully with my daughter, and with myself.

Thank you Buddy, for motivating me to think more deeply about this topic and for sharing your experience with your former girlfriend. I certainly can relate to her, and it was helpful to me that you shared your reactions to her behavior. It's really devastating for me to see myself as others saw me. I really had no clue.
 

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