Thought provoking kids fiction

vinny

The Living Force
Just for the hell of it, here is a list of some fun children's fiction I've read over the years that has stuck in my mind. These are still a good read for adults, and seem to cover subjects that are relevant today, though I didn't necessarily realise it at the time :-)

Hexwood - Dianna Wynne Jones
Subject: a secret metaphysical device which repeatedly plays out varying models of reality, in order to cycle round different parallel scenarios to find out what happens. It involves all kinds of confusing simultaneous events and the concept of time loops.

This Time of Darkness - H.M.Hoover
Subject: two children's attempt to escape from a futuristic oppressive totalitarian society, from which the whole nature (and existence) of the outside world is hidden.

Under Plum Lake - Lionel Davidson
Subject: a boy is taken as a visiting guest into a secret 'parallel' society who live for hundreds of years, and with access to technological wonders, who live completely undetected in a separate environment 'under' the earth.

A Wrinkle In Time - Madeleine L'Engle
Subject: The main theme is two children rescuing (by resisting mental manipulation) their father, who has been captured by an oppressive entity that has complete control of a planet that he travelled to via 'tesseract': a form of instantaneous hyperdimensional travel. (I think this book is banned in the USA!)
 
A series of unfortunate events was also good IMHO.


Plus the Bug Books
 
I recently (meaning a couple of months back) read the Dark Materials series by Phillip Pullman. What I found interesting was the following:

The church, in the story, served to keep the populace in line (i.e. keep them in line and subservient to a higher power).
A subatomic particle called Dust plays a major part in the story. Turns out, Dust has awareness, kind of like a universal awareness.
The story crosses multiple dimensions, and the inhabitants of one of the dimensions has an oral record of their entire existence from the time they first became aware, 33,000 years ago (I believe that was the number...33 sticks out in my head...I'll have to double check that).

I enjoyed the 3 books in the series immensely, and I couldn't help thinking that perhaps when they were written, if there was some "inspiration" going on behind the scenes.
 
Hi….
This thread reminded me of one of my favourite books growing up, The Little Prince by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry. This book is in deed ‘thought provoking’. Especially the writers reference to asteroids and deeper human understanding. I loved the way relationships were portrayed in this book, i.e. the prince and the rose, pilot and all the other characters introduced to him as he journeys to earth from his home which is an asteroid. I think I might actually read it again, since it has been a while and I think I might understand it better. :P
Check out the link below for more on the Little Prince.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Prince

Nina
 
I really liked Dark Materials as well. I don't really see why it is classified as children's lit except that the main characters are adolescents. Highly recommended. I have heard they are making a movie out of it. Always interesting to see what subtle changes are made when that happens. The book is really well suited to film, though.

UberSquid said:
I recently (meaning a couple of months back) read the Dark Materials series by Phillip Pullman. What I found interesting was the following:

The church, in the story, served to keep the populace in line (i.e. keep them in line and subservient to a higher power).
A subatomic particle called Dust plays a major part in the story. Turns out, Dust has awareness, kind of like a universal awareness.
The story crosses multiple dimensions, and the inhabitants of one of the dimensions has an oral record of their entire existence from the time they first became aware, 33,000 years ago (I believe that was the number...33 sticks out in my head...I'll have to double check that).

I enjoyed the 3 books in the series immensely, and I couldn't help thinking that perhaps when they were written, if there was some "inspiration" going on behind the scenes.
 
I just read Little Red Riding Hood again. The main purpose, IMO, of the old fairy tales was to warn about psychopaths and 4D STS. What struck me about this story was the fatal mistake that Little Red Riding Hood made was to "stop and smell the roses," to pause to enjoy the world. See in this passage from Grimm's version (called Little Red Cap):

"Little Red Cap, just where does your grandmother live?"

"Her house is a good quarter hour from here in the woods, under the three large oak trees. There's a hedge of hazel bushes there. You must know the place," said Little Red Cap.

The wolf thought to himself, "Now there is a tasty bite for me. Just how are you going to catch her?" Then he said, "Listen, Little Red Cap, haven't you seen the beautiful flowers that are blossoming in the woods? Why don't you go and take a look? And I don't believe you can hear how beautifully the birds are singing. You are walking along as though you were on your way to school in the village. It is very beautiful in the woods."

Little Red Cap opened her eyes and saw the sunlight breaking through the trees and how the ground was covered with beautiful flowers. She thought, "If a take a bouquet to grandmother, she will be very pleased. Anyway, it is still early, and I'll be home on time." And she ran off into the woods looking for flowers. Each time she picked one she thought that she could see an even more beautiful one a little way off, and she ran after it, going further and further into the woods. But the wolf ran straight to the grandmother's house and knocked on the door.
 
DonaldJHunt said:
I just read Little Red Riding Hood again. The main purpose, IMO, of the old fairy tales was to warn about psychopaths and 4D STS. What struck me about this story was the fatal mistake that Little Red Riding Hood made was to "stop and smell the roses," to pause to enjoy the world. See in this passage from Grimm's version (called Little Red Cap):

"Little Red Cap, just where does your grandmother live?"

"Her house is a good quarter hour from here in the woods, under the three large oak trees. There's a hedge of hazel bushes there. You must know the place," said Little Red Cap.

The wolf thought to himself, "Now there is a tasty bite for me. Just how are you going to catch her?" Then he said, "Listen, Little Red Cap, haven't you seen the beautiful flowers that are blossoming in the woods? Why don't you go and take a look? And I don't believe you can hear how beautifully the birds are singing. You are walking along as though you were on your way to school in the village. It is very beautiful in the woods."

Little Red Cap opened her eyes and saw the sunlight breaking through the trees and how the ground was covered with beautiful flowers. She thought, "If a take a bouquet to grandmother, she will be very pleased. Anyway, it is still early, and I'll be home on time." And she ran off into the woods looking for flowers. Each time she picked one she thought that she could see an even more beautiful one a little way off, and she ran after it, going further and further into the woods. But the wolf ran straight to the grandmother's house and knocked on the door.
No wonder fairy tales and fables have been altered, or 'cleaned up' and turned into children's stories...obscuring more clues left by "us in the past."

From this passage it appears that Little Red Cap's mistake wasn't just the act of stopping to smell the roses, but moreso that she allowed a trickster enemy to persuade her to alter her course and she become distracted...leading her down an altered path...and then she goes on to compound her original mistake by giving in to more and more distractions. All the while she is rationalizing her continued deviation from her original course. How benevolent it could 'seem' for the Wolf to draw her attention to the flowers...and thereby even giving her an opportunity to gather a bouquet for Grandmother...such a nice thing for her to do, to 'please' someone else. She didn't recognize the Wolf's true appearance and intentions, to her detriment. If Little Red Cap had been more aware, vigilant and perspicacious then she may not have made such a poor decision. She lacked the skills to 'engage' with the Wolf, and it came back to 'bite' her. "Knowledge protects."
 
Well put. The other parts of the story I didn't quote speak very explicitly about "staying on the path." There is even a sequel at the end where she meets another wolf and recognizes him for who he is the second time.

Also, I forgot to include the link: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0333.html#grimm

Lucy said:
No wonder fairy tales and fables have been altered, or 'cleaned up' and turned into children's stories...obscuring more clues left by "us in the past."

From this passage it appears that Little Red Cap's mistake wasn't just the act of stopping to smell the roses, but moreso that she allowed a trickster enemy to persuade her to alter her course and she become distracted...leading her down an altered path...and then she goes on to compound her original mistake by giving in to more and more distractions. All the while she is rationalizing her continued deviation from her original course. How benevolent it could 'seem' for the Wolf to draw her attention to the flowers...and thereby even giving her an opportunity to gather a bouquet for Grandmother...such a nice thing for her to do, to 'please' someone else. She didn't recognize the Wolf's true appearance and intentions, to her detriment. If Little Red Cap had been more aware, vigilant and perspicacious then she may not have made such a poor decision. She lacked the skills to 'engage' with the Wolf, and it came back to 'bite' her. "Knowledge protects."
 
Poking around a bit more on that folk tale site where I found the text to Little Red Riding Hood, they have a whole section on Alien Abductions! http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/abduct.html where they say, "The aliens in the legends that follow are not those from outer space, but rather underground people from our own earth: fairies, trolls, elves, and the like."
 
DonaldJHunt said:
Also, I forgot to include the link: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0333.html#grimm
Thanks for the link! Now that you've piqued my interest I'm going to enjoy perusing this site, and the related links, such as http://www.angelfire.com/nb/classillus/images/perrault/perra.html where there is another version of Little Red Riding Hood (beautifully illustrated BTW) which ends with this:

Moral
Little girls, this seems to say,
Never stop upon your way.
Never trust a stranger-friend;
No one knows how it will end.
As you’re pretty, so be wise;
Wolves may lurk in every guise.
Handsome they may be, and kind,
Gay, or charming never mind!
Now, as then, ‘tis simple truth—
Sweetest tongue has sharpest tooth!
Gosh! Those last five lines certainly seem to be describing a psychopath!

Lucy
 
About ten years ago I picked up Once Upon a More Enlighted Time by James Finn Garner at one of my kids' school book fairs. It's a "Politically Correct" re-telling of some classic fairy tales. and is a reminder that 'obsfucation' can take many forms.

At http://www.gwu.edu/~germ701/adaptations/Ben/policorrect.htm it describes and briefly discusses the book, pointing out:

"Garner claims in his introduction that he is appalled by the insensitivity of the Brothers Grimm. He goes on stating that he sees it as his duty to attempt to "purge children's stories from all biases and prejudices.

This introduction seethes with irony in the apparently earnest intentions of the author, and this correctly foretells the tone of the rest of the collection. In Garner's retellings, the audience is immediately subjected to complete and unadulterated correctness. This overkill quickly shows how silly and hindered PC in its purest form really is, and leads the audience to reject the movement as a serious stance with preference to it as a humorous one instead. The author's supposed purpose is quickly defeated, and this fulfills the author's true purpose."
Hmmm...that may or may not be the case.

-- there's also this --

"[T]he political correctness movement encompasses ideals of being equally considerate to all groups, essentially, to be nice to everybody."
"Be nice to everybody."
Even, or perhaps especially, psychopaths?

Lucy
 
I'm having a lot of fun reading, and reading about, folktales.

Thanks Donald!

Regarding these stories having changed over time, I came across this essay:

Censorship in Folklore
http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/censor.html
An essay by
D. L. Ashliman
© 1997-2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tales not fit for print

One could argue, as folklorists sometimes do in their professional meetings and journals, that no true folktale is fit for print. What they mean by this is that the act of reducing any oral performance to written language, by the very nature of things, introduces its own set of changes. Interaction between teller and listener is largely lost, as are nuances of voice; meaning carried by gestures, and so on.

Collectors and editors of folktales have wrestled with these problems from the very beginning. How, for example, should one spell the "wolf whistle" used by insensitive construction workers to signal their approval of attractive women? "Wheet-wheeo" may get the point across, but it surely does not carry the emotional impact of the audible whistle. Similarly, how should one spell the sound of disapproval made by clicking the tongue against the roof of the mouth? The approximation "tsk, tsk" is about the best one can do with a written word, but it too is a weak imitation of the real thing, to say nothing of a statement such as "and he responded with an obscene gesture."

Further, speech in a regional or socio-economic dialect carries a level of meaning that can only be alluded to in print. For example, the pioneer folktale collectors Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm bemoaned the loss of texture and meaning imposed on their stories by translating them from local dialects into standard German. They did, by way of example, publish a handful of tales in Low German, Bavarian German, and Swiss German, but the great majority of their stories are in a simple, but literate and grammatically correct standard High German, the language of writing, not the language of ordinary speech.

The problem of reducing speech to print intensifies when one is confronted with words or acts that, according to longstanding convention, are "unprintable." Any collector of ordinary people's speech acts will soon meet up with indelicate, even tabooed language, gestures, and events.

By today's norms, nineteenth-century (the age of most pioneering folklore collections) publication standards were exceedingly careful, even prudish. Although printed anecdote collections from earlier centuries were normally unashamedly blunt, nineteenth and early twentieth-century editors and publishers were much more cautious. With few exceptions, they bowdlerized or omitted any potentially offensive words and episodes.

"Victorian" scholars apparently saw no contradiction in their attempts to preserve common culture while avoiding that which was vulgar. Virtually every major collection offers examples. The following quotations speak for themselves:

In this new edition we have carefully removed every expression inappropriate for children. -- Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm, preface to the 1819 edition of their Kinder- und Hausmärchen (Children's and Household Tales).

And now, before the translator takes leave of his readers for the second time, he will follow the lead of the good godmother in one of these tales, and forbid all good children to read the two which stand last in the book [Tom Totterhouse" and "Little Annie the Goose-Girl"]. -- George Webbe Dasent, preface to the second edition (1859) of his translation of Popular Tales from the Norse by Peter Christen Asbjørnsen and Jørgen Moe (Edinburgh: David Douglass, 1888), p. vi.

Many parts [of the old Cornish folk plays] are omitted, as they would in our refined days, be considered coarse; but as preserving a true picture of a peculiar people, as they were a century and a half or two centuries since, I almost regret the omissions. -- Robert Hunt, Popular Romances of the West of England (London: John Camden Hotten, 1871), p. 395.

"The Swineherd" has certain traits in common with an old Danish folktale, but the version I heard, as a child, would be quite unprintable. -- Hans Christian Andersen, "Notes for Fairy Tales and Stories" (1874), The Complete Fairy Tales and Stories (Garden City: Anchor Press/Doubleday, 1983), p. 1073).

I heard another version of the same story ["The Smith and the Fairies"] in Lewis from a medical gentleman, who got it from an old woman, who told it as a fact, with some curious variations unfit for printing. -- J. F. Campbell, Popular Tales of the West Highlands: Orally Collected, vol. 2 (London: Alexander Gardner, 1890), p. 64.

I have had to omit a certain number of stories as unsuited for publication. -- Cecil Henry Bompas, preface to Folklore of the Santal Parganas (London: David Nutt, 1909), p. 7.

Here are a few of the stories told of Johha [a Palestinian trickster analagous to the Turkish Nasreddin Hodja or the European Till Eulenspiegel]. The majority are unfit for reproduction. -- J. E. Hanauer, Folk-Lore of the Holy Land: Moslem, Christian, and Jewish (London: The Sheldon Press, 1935), p. 64. First published 1907.

When the tales are found they are adapted to the needs of British children by various hands, the editor doing little beyond guarding the interests of propriety, and toning down to mild reproofs the tortures inflicted on wicked stepmothers and other naughty characters. -- Andrew Lang, preface to The Crimson Fairy Book (London: Longmans, Green, and Company, 1903), p. v.

Whenever an original incident, so far as I could penetrate to it, seemed to me too crudely primitive for the children of the present day, I have had no scruples in modifying or mollifying it, drawing attention to such bowdlerization in the somewhat elaborate notes at the end of the volume. -- Joseph Jacobs, preface to European Folk and Fairy Tales (New York: G. Putnam's Sons, 1916), p. viii.

A few (four or five) of the stories are frankly indecent, and are always expurgated from popular editions of the work in Italy, a course which I have followed here. Two or three of the present collection are also a trifle free, but I have decided to leave them in their place, with a few unimportant excisions and alterations. -- Edward Storer's introduction to his translation of Il Novellino: The Hundred Old Tales (London and New York: George Routledge and Sons and E. P. Dutton and Co., ca. 1925), pp. 31-32.

Being productions of a more outspoken age, many of the following tales are, as was to be expected, of a character that is contrary to the taste of the present time. I have, however omitted nothing in this book; but in the case of a few isolated passages and of three entire stories, the nature of which is such as to preclude the possibility of their publication in these days, I have been content to print the original transliterated into the Roman alphabet, but untranslated. -- E. J. W. Gibb, preface to his translation from the Turkish of The History of the Forty Vezirs; or, The Story of the Forty Morns and Eves by Sheykh-Zada (London: George Redway, 1886), pp. xx-xxi.

His book is befouled with obscenity, and, like obscenity itself, is ceasing by degrees to be part of a gentleman's education.... The translator ... must leave whole pages in the decent obscurity of Latin. -- Michael Heseltine, preface to his translation of the Satyricon of Petronius, Loeb Classical Library (London and New York: William Heinemann and The Macmillan Company, 1913, p. xvi.

Similarly, naive readers of the 1891 English translation of The Facetious Nights by Giovanni Francesco Straparola (ca. 1480 - ca. 1557) are protected from the passages of that collection that are most wanting in decency by the fact that the editor translates the critical parts of the most offensive tales (for example, night 6, tales 2 and 4) from the original Italian into French rather than into English. Uneducated readers -- who presumably would not understand French -- are thus spared from the deleterious effects of the racier tales. Educated readers -- who could read French -- presumably would be protected from negative influences by their own sophistication.

Bibliographic reference:
Straparola, Giovanni Francesco. The Facetious Nights, London: Privately printed for members of the Society of Bibliophiles, 1901.

Not even the works of established and (for the most part) respected storytellers are safe from bowdlerization. Boccaccio's The Decameron, by its very name and obvious structure, must consist of 100 stories. However, some versions have only 99, the tenth story of the third day ("Alibech Puts the Devil Back into Hell," type 1425) being too racy for some "Victorian" publishers.

Even scholars of folklore, whose very science depends upon the unaltered recording of data, are sometimes reluctant to give the whole story, or -- in some instances -- any of the story. For example, Antti Aarne and Stith Thompson, two of the greatest folktale catalogers, were reluctant to provide details for the many erotic tales that they encountered, sometimes identifying them by little more than a number and the tag "obscene" (for example, types 1546*, 1549*, 1580*).

Bibliographic reference:
Aarne, Antti, and Thompson, Stith. The Types of the Folktale: A Classification and Bibliography, FF Communications 184, Helsinki: Suomalainen Tiedeakatemia, 1961.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
D. L. Ashliman's folktexts, a library of folktales, folklore, fairy tales, and mythology.
http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/folktexts.html
Revised May 12, 2005.
 
That's interesting, Lucy. The same is true of both the Mother Goose Nursery Rhymes where a scholarly version with notes that I found in a used bookstore has a lot that were left out of the standard ones. There were gay couples (I'll dig that one up, something about two pretty young men who liked to lie in bed together) and one I remember that doesn't make it into current collections, to be sung to a baby in a crib: "Piss a bed, piss a bed, Barley Butt. Your bum is so heavy that you can't get up!"

It is also true of art from ancient Greece and Rome. The prudishness of the Victorian era European imperial museum curators left a lot of what we would consider very obscene art in the basement storage areas of the museums. But, apparently in Greece and Rome they would have pretty obscene sculptures and such on display in their houses.
 
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