Transsexualism: Any thoughts?

[jamie]

I'm wondering if this has been discussed before and what the thoughts are on it?

As opposed to homosexuality which involves "same sex love", the aspect of this seems to center on a certain "discomfort" for ones body... I am also wondering what are the probable consequences of a person's surgical alteration of their genitals, e.g. their sex change operation.

Additionally, most people I talk to find transsexuals delusional to some degree. Its almost in the same sense if I were talk to people about most of the stuff talked about in this site...

The aversion towards transsexuality is interesting as well but more compelling is that in more ancient cultures it was something not frowned upon though in some sense transsexuals were still members on the fringe of society.

I'm wondering if transsexuality is a karmic effect, or perhaps rebellion of sorts against STS manipulation or really an aspect of STS manipulation itself? Any further thoughts will be appreciated.

 

[PepperFritz]

I am also wondering what are the probable consequences of a person's surgical alteration of their genitals, e.g. their sex change operation.

Could you be more specific about the kind of "consequences" you are talking about?

Additionally, most people I talk to find transsexuals delusional to some degree. Its almost in the same sense if I were talk to people about most of the stuff talked about in this site...

Well, what "most people" think is not really relevant to truth and reality, is it?

I'm wondering if transsexuality is a karmic effect....

Not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate?

...or perhaps rebellion of sorts against STS manipulation or really an aspect of STS manipulation itself?

Not sure what you mean there either. Can you elaborate on that as well?

 

[mcb]

I don't know if it has been discussed here before. I can only give you my thoughts, as a transsexual (TS).

TSs are a very diverse group of people. If you look among those that are easiest to find, the ones that don't blend well with society, you will often see signs of mental issues. "Delusional" might be too strong a term for most of those that I have seen, though. I believe I have encountered more delusional people while browsing through this forum than I have in the trans community. So who were you talking to?

It can convenient to look at TSs as a "them" that you can analyze. What I have noticed though, is that while TSs often have lots of issues, so does everybody else. But there something about us that we seem to like to find people that look different from us and go pick on them. I have lost count of how many times I have felt like I was drowning in a flood of woe from an MTF TS telling her story. But really, that only happens occasionally. It more often happens that I begin talking with an elderly person (not TS) only to have them try to tell me about every little ailment that they have or imagine that they have. People just have a lot of problems, period. If I didn't have TS issues, I would have just as many of some other kind of issues, and I really do believe that. So I take what I do have and I learn from it.

I don't think you can generalize about "more ancient cultures." Which ones did you have in mind? Gender variant people are not so much concerned about "aversion" or being frowned upon as they are about being murdered. Living on the fringe of society is not a lot of fun either. Nice folks, those "tolerant" ones.

I don't know if transsexualism is a karmic effect. It might be. So what? I can tell you that it presents a rich and potent set of lessons.

 

[Bernhard]

Fwiw, I can share something of my own experience with a "Transsexual". One of my long time massage clients is going through a sex change right now.
I know him for two years as a very "feminine" man and he comes regularly to me for bodywork. A couple of months ago, he told me that he will wants to be a woman and started to see a doctor. Every since then he has been taking hormones that seem to suppress his male hormones and/or increase his female hormones. Not sure how this works. He changed his name to a female name and keeps coming for bodywork. It's interesting because I'm witnessing the transformation, his/her voice gets higher, breasts are growing. Overall he/she said he/she is getting more emotional and so forth. He/she is now also fully wearing women clothes and make-up.
He/she feels very happy with the decision as he/she always felt that the woman in him was stronger than the man. Overall his/her life seems to have been improved.
Luckily his/her family is supportive and friends as well. He/she is also thinking about surgery but wants to wait until the hormone treatment is done with.
Personally I have no "issues" with his choice and seeing him/her as a client. I never heard of anyone saying that Transsexuality is delusional.

For the reason why certain people feel to change their sex from a biological or metaphysical view, I do not know.

 

[mcb]

Bernhard,

There is a kind of a "standard story" that goes pretty much as you describe it. It's not wrong; it's just stated from the rather limited point of view of a non-experiencer. And too many times those that are experiencing it can't articulate what is going on either, and they fall back to echoing other peoples' weak explanations, hoping that they will be understood.

Perhaps what would help more is to start with the realization that people do transition from one gender to another, and that, so far as we know, they have been doing that for a very long time. That's the way it is. Our societies carry with them some pretty peculiar baggage, and sometimes under the influence of that baggage it bothers us that things are they way they are. But is the problem with the way things are or with the societal baggage?

I could ask this question, then: why would people find it strange that someone, finding themselves in a gender role that doesn't suit them, would transition?

Well, because "it just isn't done," of course. But it is. It has been. It will be done again. There is a lot to learn from this. But not so much about transsexuals.

 

[Bernhard]

I could ask this question, then: why would people find it strange that someone, finding themselves in a gender role that doesn't suit them, would transition?

Well, maybe it didn't come clear through in my post, but I don't think there is anything strange about it, nor do I really concern myself with any "reasons" for Transsexuality. I don't relate to a TS any way different as to any other man or woman. It was just my personals story I shared relating to the topic.
.

 

[Hildegarda]

here is an interesting article on the topic:

\\\http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200811/transgender-children

 

[mcb]

here is an interesting article on the topic:

\\\http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200811/transgender-children

What did you find interesting about it?

Some people were not too happy about it. See, for example, _http://transadvocate.com/autumnsandeen/archives/2448.

There is a story behind the story worthy of this forum, of psychopathic "authorities" and of the Control System. But what keeps striking me is not that, but rather the need that "normal" people have to examine and mess with "abnormal" people, and to help them to "conform."

It's hard for me to explain this in a few words (I don't have much time to write). It is easy though, as you can see in the above article, to analyze somebody else's problem at length, bringing in "authorities" to support the major points--psychopathic authorities are even better. But the real issue is with the society that doesn't value differences, even naturally occuring ones. This isn't seen as abonormal, or even as interesting to write about. But it is interesting, and it is, I think, where there is the most to be learned.

 

[anart]

What did you find interesting about it?

I think this is a really good question. It's not very helpful to just post an article without explaining why one thinks it's 'helpful'.

Some people were not too happy about it. See, for example, _http://transadvocate.com/autumnsandeen/archives/2448.

There is a story behind the story worthy of this forum, of psychopathic "authorities" and of the Control System. But what keeps striking me is not that, but rather the need that "normal" people have to examine and mess with "abnormal" people, and to help them to "conform."

It's hard for me to explain this in a few words (I don't have much time to write). It is easy though, as you can see in the above article, to analyze somebody else's problem at length, bringing in "authorities" to support the major points--psychopathic authorities are even better. But the real issue is with the society that doesn't value differences, even naturally occuring ones. This isn't seen as abonormal, or even as interesting to write about. But it is interesting, and it is, I think, where there is the most to be learned.

Thanks or the additional information, Megan.

 

[Gimpy]

here is an interesting article on the topic:

\\\http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200811/transgender-children

What did you find interesting about it?

Some people were not too happy about it. See, for example, _http://transadvocate.com/autumnsandeen/archives/2448.

There is a story behind the story worthy of this forum, of psychopathic "authorities" and of the Control System. But what keeps striking me is not that, but rather the need that "normal" people have to examine and mess with "abnormal" people, and to help them to "conform."

It's hard for me to explain this in a few words (I don't have much time to write). It is easy though, as you can see in the above article, to analyze somebody else's problem at length, bringing in "authorities" to support the major points--psychopathic authorities are even better. But the real issue is with the society that doesn't value differences, even naturally occuring ones. This isn't seen as abonormal, or even as interesting to write about. But it is interesting, and it is, I think, where there is the most to be learned.

Hi Megan. The link to the transadvocate didn't come up with any information...it said "Sorry, but you are looking for something that isn't here." ??

Is there a specific search on the site to look for whatever you wanted to share?


I'm appalled at how rotten people treat each other for any kind of perceived difference. Prejudice is a kind of ignorance that, once instilled, is unreasoning and inflexible. Instilled, because it isn't a skill.....its caught like a cold that never heals. Sometimes it reminds me of what most people consider to be faith in <fill in the blank>.

I've known many transgenders and transvestites, each with a boatload of challenges to deal with. What I do know about the transgender community is this: the only equality found for them is in the rejection and hate department from just about everybody...including the gay community. (And I don't understand that.)

I can't comment on the article until I can read what the transadvocate has to say about it first. :)


Gimpy

 

[knowledge_of_self]

Hello:

I have an online friend who wants to become female. He is a pretty anti-social person due to the fact that his “real life friends” are not really accepting of who he really is. Or… who he wants to be, a girl. I have found through our exchanges during the time I’ve known him to be very shy, introvert, and extremely moody. I’m not sure weather the moody aspect of his personality is due to his complicated situation.

He is determined to become a girl and is beginning to go through the steps. Though, unlike your friend Bernhard, his family is not at all supportive of his transition. His mother and sister are the only ones in his family that know of his decision. His sister is completely against it, and his mom is all over the place. One day she tells him that she will support him no matter what, the next she tells him she wants nothing to do with him if he is choosing to become female. And that she won’t help him in anyway. So for now, he’s going to therapy with his mom to try and work out a possible method of breaking the news of him wanting to become female to the rest of his family (including his father).

He is very keen and wants everyone to know his decision to become female.
He claims his frequent mood-swings are mostly due to the lack of understanding on people’s part about his situation, especially his immediate family members. I often wonder whether his mood swings are due to his personality or his situation of wanting a sex-change. And when he does go through with the operation, whether the mood swings will stop, increase or stay the same.

I have quite often thought to myself whether I would be as accepting of such a change within someone in my immediate family. I try to put myself in both Ashley (that’s his name now) and his mom’s and sister’s shoes. I can see how life can be so difficult from Ashley’s point of view. Never feeling like you belong anywhere, and that a huge part of you is missing, and that you are not really yourself. But I can also see it from the point of view of his family. I don’t know how well I’d handle my son or brother announcing to me that he is going to have a sex-exchange. I am not at all trying to be offensive, but I can see how some people may not be as understanding. Especially if you’re used to someone or have lived with someone for so long, and have a personal connection. And if you have cultural programming, which we all do.

I don’t tell Ashley this because I’m one of his only friends that accept his situation. I try to be as supportive as I can. But sometimes I just can’t help but think that what he’s expecting people to understand is a little heavy and maybe somewhat selfish. Again, I mean no offense… these are just some thoughts I had on the subject.

~Nina~

 

[anart]

I don’t know how well I’d handle my son or brother announcing to me that he is going to have a sex-exchange. I am not at all trying to be offensive, but I can see how some people may not be as understanding. Especially if you’re used to someone or have lived with someone for so long, and have a personal connection.

So your 'personal connection' is based what gender they are???? How does someone's gender change who they are inside? If you truly have a 'personal connection' with someone then you should honor, love and accept them for exactly who they are - inside - not for what gender they happen to be or become. These statements of yours really shine a light on how very alone Ashley is if you are one of the 'only friends' who "accepts her situation"...

 

[PepperFritz]

I don't know if it will add anything to the discussion, but I thought I'd share my one and only experience with someone who became transgendered:

I lived for many years in a very cool neighbourhood in Toronto (Cabbagetown), where at least half of the neighbourhood were gay and bi-sexual men and women. I also worked in the arts community, where there is a higher-than-average number of openly gay and bi-sexual people. At that time I had more gay friends and acquaintances than "straight" ones, so encountering and interacting with the "fluidity" of sex, gender, and gender relationships was pretty "normal" to me. I even sometimes felt a little "abnormal" and "limited" as a straight woman who had never been attracted to another female in her life. It took a while to get used to having women "hit" on me, and men flirting with my husband, but that soon became routine as well.

One of my lesbian friends had a whirwind romance with a new person in her life, and they were soon living together. Let's call her new girlfriend "Jo". From the moment I met Jo, there was something very different about her. The vibe I got from her wasn't one I'd encountered before -- it wasn't "straight woman experimenting with lesbianism", or "bisexual who likes men and women", or "fem" lesbian, or "butch dyke lesbian", it was something entirely different. After a while I realized that I just got a "guy" vibe off her. When she walked into a room full of women, she gave off the same energy that a straight man would in the same situation. Eventually I talked to Jo's girlfriend about this; she knew exactly what I meant and said that Jo had felt like a guy trapped in a woman's body all her life. Turns out she was born as one of a set of triplets; both of her siblings were male, and apparently a male/male/female set of triplets is rather rare. It seemed obvious to me that she was "meant" to be a male like her brothers, but something went "wrong" in her case.

Jo did not strike me as a troubled or conflicted person; in fact, she was one of the most cheerful, outgoing people I knew. Of course, that could have a lot to do with the fact that she openly lived her life as the man that she felt she was, and that her family completely accepted her as "gay". I lost touch with the couple after I moved away from Toronto, but ran into Jo a few months ago. She is now completely transgendered and living (and passing) as a man named "Mitch". She is also even happier and more outgoing than she was before. I felt no sense of "conflict" about her new identity, as I'd always related to her as a "man" anyways. She was the same person she'd always been, only with a physical appearance that she felt more comfortable with.

Seems to me that most of the "problems" that gay, bisexual, and transgendered people have are directly related to the lack of acceptance and understanding from their families and society as a whole. Having lived a lot of my life within a community of opnely gay and generally accepted gay people, I found them to be psychologically healthier than your average person, probably because of all the crap they'd had to deal with in their life, and the kind of courage, self-acceptance, and self-awareness they had to develop in order to be "themselves" in this world.

Jo was never what I would call a "close friend", yet I felt I'd gotten to know "who she is". So I find it so hard to understand how people can talk about being so "close" to someone and yet have such a hard time accepting their sexuality or their sexual/gender identity. How could you be so "close" with someone and yet be so out of touch with WHO THEY ARE? My younger brother went through such nonsence with my family when he came out as a gay man, and was shocked when I told him I already knew, he thought he'd kept it such a secret. I said, hey, I grew up with you, lived in the same house for years, how could I not know?

I dunno. It makes me wonder if most people "know" their loved ones at all; if they just relate to them as the person they want them to be, rather than the person that they ARE. It's sad.

 

[rrraven]

i personally believe the whole gender thing is more of a sliding scale than a black and white /one or the other thing
and i consider myself just 'borderline' female :P
although fully functional ( i've had 4 kids) i'm almost 6 foot tall, have a very deep voice,shave daily,like men to be clean shaven and hairless and seem to be the one asked to do the more 'male' jobs when i'm in the company of only women(like change a flat tyre) and when i was a kid i thought i was going to grow up to be a man but i am comfortable with my body as it is

just my 2 cents
RRR

 

[PepperFritz]

i personally believe the whole gender thing is more of a sliding scale than a black and white /one or the other thing

I completely agree.

when i was a kid i thought i was going to grow up to be a man but i am comfortable with my body as it is

Well, that's the most important thing.