water myths?

[Gertrudes]

Maybe this has been discussed before. I couldn't find it in any of the threads on Water, so I thought I'd post it:

From _http://www.drmirkin.com/nutrition/9942.html

Do you believe that a person needs to drink eight glasses of water every day? If you do, you will spend a lot of time running to the bathroom.

Why do so many people believe this rule? The number originally came from the National Academy of Sciences of the United States Food and Nutrition Board, which publishes recommended daily allowances of nutrients. The 1945 edition of the Food and Nutrition Board recommended: "A suitable allowance of water for adults is 2.5 liters (about 8 cups) daily in most instances." This amount is based on the calculation of one milliliter of water for each calorie of food. HOWEVER, the Board also noted that most of the water you need is in the food you eat.

All foods contain water. Even the driest nut or seed has a lot of water in it. Furthermore, when food is digested, it is converted to energy, carbon dioxide and WATER. Most people can get the fluid the body needs from food, and they only need to drink enough water to prevent constipation.

When you eat, the pyloric valve at the end of your stomach closes to keep food in the stomach. Then the stomach takes fluid that you drink and food that you eat and turns the solid food into liquid. If you don't drink enough fluid, your stomach takes fluid from your blood and adds it to the food in the stomach to create the soup. The pyloric valve will not let food pass to the intestines until this liquid soup is formed. Then the liquid soup passes to the intestines and remains a soup until it reaches your colon. Only then is the fluid absorbed to turn the soup into solid waste in the colon. If you do not have enough fluid in your body, your body extracts extra fluid from your stool and turns your stool into hard rocks, causing constipation.

A study in the Journal of the American College of Nutrition shows that plain water is not needed as long as enough fluid is obtained from other drinks and food. Twenty-seven healthy men consumed one of two diets for three-day periods and were studied in a lab setting. The first diet included plain water while the second omitted it, relying on only foods, orange juice, diet soda, and coffee for fluid. None of the nine measures of hydration were affected.

A reasonable amount for a healthy human is one cup of water or any other fluid with each meal. If you have a problem with constipation you may not be drinking enough water, but if you are not constipated, you are getting plenty. You'll also want to replace fluids whenever you sweat a lot, particularly when you exercise or in hot weather. Drink water whenever you feel thirsty, but there's no health benefit from forcing yourself to drink eight glasses of water a day. Drinking too much water can be dangerous; see Hyponatremia. This is of particular concern if you are exercising in hot weather and fail to replace the salt you lose in sweat.

The web world is quite a jungle, how accurate is the above article? I can't really tell. It made some sense to me, main reason being that stipulating 2l of water for EVERYONE is quite a generalization, for the lack of a better word.
My body often seems to reject water when ingested in more then small quantities. But then again, a toxic body doesn't really behave properly anyway.

I was one of those raised on the drink 2l of water a day premise. I could never do it because it always felt too much. I guess it depends on your body constitution as well, I am quite small so probably won't need a lot.
"Drinking water first thing in the morning", also a common saying. After hearing about its benefits on cleansing the system, I have tried it a few times throughout the years, but it always made me feel nauseous.


Today in Metro's newspaper, a quote from Dr. Aaron Carroll,

You should drink eight glasses of water a day: This myth comes from an American Nutrition Council report from 60 years ago in which scientists said people should have 64 ounces (two litres) of liquid a day.

They made the number up, there's no science behind it. They also said you'll get that from a normal diet, from fluid in fruit and vegetables and in tea or coffee.

It somehow morphed into the idea of the eight glasses. That has been built up by the bottled water industry, which suggests water can help with weight loss or it benefits your skin.

No study ever has shown those things to be true. Drink water if you feel thirsty but don't feel you need to have to consume all this excess water each day.

 

[RyanX]

Do you believe that a person needs to drink eight glasses of water every day? If you do, you will spend a lot of time running to the bathroom.

Why do so many people believe this rule? The number originally came from the National Academy of Sciences of the United States Food and Nutrition Board, which publishes recommended daily allowances of nutrients. The 1945 edition of the Food and Nutrition Board recommended: "A suitable allowance of water for adults is 2.5 liters (about 8 cups) daily in most instances." This amount is based on the calculation of one milliliter of water for each calorie of food. HOWEVER, the Board also noted that most of the water you need is in the food you eat.

8 Cups is not 2.5 liters. Whoever wrote this doesn't know how to do basic unit conversions. 8 Cups comes out to be about 1.89 liters. Unless they're using some other standard of Cup than the one given in most textbooks.

I have a hard time believing that most of the water I need is in the food I eat. I usually feel thirsty after eating a big meal. In fact, I've read in wilderness survival guides that one should never ingest food unless a source of water can be secured for drinking before hand. The idea is that eating food will dehydrate one faster than not eating anything at all.

A study in the Journal of the American College of Nutrition shows that plain water is not needed as long as enough fluid is obtained from other drinks and food. Twenty-seven healthy men consumed one of two diets for three-day periods and were studied in a lab setting. The first diet included plain water while the second omitted it, relying on only foods, orange juice, diet soda, and coffee for fluid. None of the nine measures of hydration were affected.

Diet Soda!?

Perhaps hydration wasn't affected in this study, but can such a diet be considered "healthy"? Besides, one study is just one study, it could just be a fluke for all we know. 27 "healthy" men is not a very large sample population either. The world also consists of more than just men; there are women, children, pubescent children, pregnant women, lactating women, how would these populations behave under a similar water restricted diet?

At this point, I get the feeling that this article is mostly soda company propaganda.

I agree that people do need different amounts of water depending on their body type, lifestyle, health and other physiological conditions, but to eliminate it completely or even to a large extent seems like a recipe for disaster.

 

[Masamune]

Personally I drink a lot of water. I do not ever force myself to drink water I just drink when I am thirsty. Over the years I have stopped drinking pretty much everything besides water and have become able to drink large amounts of water. I think that it is good for clearing out the system and helpful for detoxing.

This just makes me think of a quote from Bringers of the Dawn about water consumption:

So, the methods to use are intention, breathing, using the pillar of light, and spinning. We will add a postscript to these. As you are electronic beings who are altering your frequency at a very fast rate, we would recommend that you drink a tremendous amount of water: fresh water, purified water, or spring water. Water acts as a conduit or conductor. It keeps your system open and flowing.

 

[Jacques]

Do you believe that a person needs to drink eight glasses of water every day? If you do, you will spend a lot of time running to the bathroom.

Why do so many people believe this rule? The number originally came from the National Academy of Sciences of the United States Food and Nutrition Board, which publishes recommended daily allowances of nutrients. The 1945 edition of the Food and Nutrition Board recommended: "A suitable allowance of water for adults is 2.5 liters (about 8 cups) daily in most instances." This amount is based on the calculation of one milliliter of water for each calorie of food. HOWEVER, the Board also noted that most of the water you need is in the food you eat.

8 Cups is not 2.5 liters. Whoever wrote this doesn't know how to do basic unit conversions. 8 Cups comes out to be about 1.89 liters. Unless they're using some other standard of Cup than the one given in most textbooks.

I have a hard time believing that most of the water I need is in the food I eat. I usually feel thirsty after eating a big meal. In fact, I've read in wilderness survival guides that one should never ingest food unless a source of water can be secured for drinking before hand. The idea is that eating food will dehydrate one faster than not eating anything at all.

I don't remember exactly in what book i read that (could be "Detoxify or Die, Ultramind solution, Pain free in 6 weeks or The magnesium miracle) but 8 glasses of water a day does not include the water in the food (coffee and juice included) that we eat.

 

[Gertrudes]

Diet Soda!?

Perhaps hydration wasn't affected in this study, but can such a diet be considered "healthy"?

Yeah, same red flags stood out for me. In considering hydration the study seemed to "forget" quality of hydration.

I don't doubt the least on the importance of drinking water in reasonable quantities. It got me wondering though, if the quantity could have been exaggerated by bottled water companies.

Slightly off topic, but still on the subject of water. Can sparkling water be consumed safely as an healthy alternative to still water? The information I found on the net seems a bit contradictory.
On the negative side, I've heard before that it can lead to increased acidity, and for some people bloating. As for myself, I tend to drink it quite regularly but not sure whether I am really doing myself any favour...

 

[Ollie]

For equating water intake with your weight, I use the following guideline from: Water and Salt (Dr. med. Barbara Hendel and Peter Ferreira)

The rule of thumb is: drink at least 1 ounce of water for every two pounds of body weight.

and that is over and above any other form of drink, such as herbal teas, juices or in food, etc.

to maintain well functioning kidneys, ... by drinking sufficient living water, low on minerals and non-carbonated.

In addition, if I feel dehydrated, dry lips, I drink more water. Also, from the same source,

Quartz crystals have the power to restore the original, orderly structure of water.

Water Revitalization with Quartz Crystals

... Simply place a handful of quartz crystals, such as clear quartz, smokey quartz or amethyst in a glass decanter or jar. In the evening, fill the container with filtered or purified tap water or artesian spring water that you purchased in a bottle. Pour in only as much as you intend to drink the following day and let it sit for at least eight hours.

 

[OzRich]

I think, we should keep in mind that drinking lots of water flushes out water soluble nutrients as well.
Like vitamin C, which body doesn't store. We than need to replace it.

 

[moonwalker]

I think, we should keep in mind that drinking lots of water flushes out water soluble nutrients as well.
Like vitamin C, which body doesn't store. We than need to replace it.

Hi
What are you basing this on.
i.e The body flushes out water soluble nutrients and the body doesn't store vitamin C. Just saying it's quite a contentious issue.

 

[OzRich]

I think, we should keep in mind that drinking lots of water flushes out water soluble nutrients as well.
Like vitamin C, which body doesn't store. We than need to replace it.

Hi
What are you basing this on.
i.e The body flushes out water soluble nutrients and the body doesn't store vitamin C. Just saying it's quite a contentious issue.

Only on the memory of what I learned at school (physiotherapy over 30 years ago). The subject was water and fat soluble nutrients and the fact that some nutrients are not stored in the body, and have to be constantly supplied.
Vitamin C stucked in my mind probably because of the stories of scurvy, as an explenation of how it works, i.e disease due to lack of constant supply of nutrient.
Science may have different understanding now. If it does - I don't know about it

 

[OzRich]

I'm just reading Burt Berkson's The Alpha Lipoic Acid Breakthrough.

From page 54, Water-Soluable Vitamins:

Water-soluable vitamins are readily elimininated from the body. Because of this, they must be taken regularly. The primary water-soluable vitamins are B-complex and C.

I hope it clarifies it.

 

[Z...]

Sparkling water?

Slightly off topic, but still on the subject of water. Can sparkling water be consumed safely as an healthy alternative to still water? The information I found on the net seems a bit contradictory.
On the negative side, I've heard before that it can lead to increased acidity, and for some people bloating. As for myself, I tend to drink it quite regularly but not sure whether I am really doing myself any favour...

yea this is the question I 've been asking myself lately. Nothing quenches the thirst in the heatwave as a misty glass of sparkling water and lemon slice.
if anyone has something on sparkling water please post here

 

[svjetlonosa]

Re: Sparkling water?

Slightly off topic, but still on the subject of water. Can sparkling water be consumed safely as an healthy alternative to still water? The information I found on the net seems a bit contradictory.
On the negative side, I've heard before that it can lead to increased acidity, and for some people bloating. As for myself, I tend to drink it quite regularly but not sure whether I am really doing myself any favour...

yea this is the question I 've been asking myself lately. Nothing quenches the thirst in the heatwave as a misty glass of sparkling water and lemon slice.
if anyone has something on sparkling water please post here

The sparkling water contains dissolved carbonic acid (you can read it on a label) and CO2 - in balance with carbonic acid.
Healthy?
I don't know. It differs from person to person. One who has acidic body and/or blood probably shouldn't drink sparkling water, it might lead to body overacidification. The consequences among other might be calcium depletion from bones, oxalate crystallization on joints and small bones of toes and hands. But if you check your urine pH you can experiment by yourself.
Personally, I don't drink sparkling water, it makes me more thirsty and have increased blood acidity as well.

 

[Z...]

well svjetlnosa the CO2 issue is not that simple, you cannot simply acidify your body just by drinking carbonated water ;)

Clinical observation shows that low oxygen and low carbon dioxide occur together. Therapeutic increase of carbon dioxide, by inhalation of this gas diluted in air, is often an effective means of improving the oxygenation of the blood and tissues.
The same thing can be accomplished by taking bicarbonate orally and to everyone’s surprise you can dive into a bath full of bicarbonate for intense therapeutic effect.

CO2 is a gas at room temperature, and consists of a central carbon atom and two oxygen atoms arranged in a linear fashion. When dissolved into water, the CO2 becomes hydrated to form carbonic acid (H2CO3). This hydration step takes a few seconds, though that may seem fast, many organisms from bacteria to humans use an enzyme called carbonic anhydrase to greatly speed up the process.
Once carbonic acid forms, it very quickly equilibrates with the other acids and bases in solution. It can, for example, lose one or two protons (H+).
The extent to which this happens depends upon the pH and a variety of other factors. In seawater at pH 8.1, most of it (87 percent) will lose one proton to form bicarbonate, a small amount will lose two protons to form carbonate (13 percent), and a very small amount will remain as H2CO3 (<>1 percent). All of these forms, however, interconvert faster than the blink of an eye, so one cannot identify one as carbonate and one as bicarbonate for more than a tiny fraction of a second. All one can really say is that on average X percent is in the form of bicarbonate, and Y percent in the form of carbonate.
Total CO2 is defined as the sum of carbonic acid and bicarbonate.
Carbonic acid plays a very important role as a buffer in our blood. The equilibrium between carbon dioxide and carbonic acid is very important for controlling the acidity of body fluids, and the carbonic anhydrase increases the reaction rate by a factor of nearly a billion to keep the fluids at a stable pH.

In other words you shouldn't worry about CO2 in the water , more importantly you need to check the level of Sodium in sparkling water as this can potentially be harmful.
Most of the sparkling waters if not all are bicarbonated which means they have buffering effect, and some of them may contain Magnesium Cloride - such water has extra beneficial effect.

 

[svjetlonosa]

Thank you Corto for reminding me on chemistry lessons. Instead of posting the reply I lost the text, therefore, this is the shorter version.
The quote you posted does not answers your question: is sparkling water harmful for consumption. Your reply contains CO2 buffering effect in blood and sea water. Biochemical paths are similar but not the same due to the complexity of human body.

well svjetlnosa the CO2 issue is not that simple, you cannot simply acidify your body just by drinking carbonated water ;)

Clinical observation shows that low oxygen and low carbon dioxide occur together. Therapeutic increase of carbon dioxide, by inhalation of this gas diluted in air, is often an effective means of improving the oxygenation of the blood and tissues.
The same thing can be accomplished by taking bicarbonate orally and to everyone’s surprise you can dive into a bath full of bicarbonate for intense therapeutic effect.

CO2 is a gas at room temperature, and consists of a central carbon atom and two oxygen atoms arranged in a linear fashion. When dissolved into water, the CO2 becomes hydrated to form carbonic acid (H2CO3). This hydration step takes a few seconds, though that may seem fast, many organisms from bacteria to humans use an enzyme called carbonic anhydrase to greatly speed up the process.
Once carbonic acid forms, it very quickly equilibrates with the other acids and bases in solution. It can, for example, lose one or two protons (H+).
The extent to which this happens depends upon the pH and a variety of other factors. In seawater at pH 8.1, most of it (87 percent) will lose one proton to form bicarbonate, a small amount will lose two protons to form carbonate (13 percent), and a very small amount will remain as H2CO3 (<>1 percent). All of these forms, however, interconvert faster than the blink of an eye, so one cannot identify one as carbonate and one as bicarbonate for more than a tiny fraction of a second. All one can really say is that on average X percent is in the form of bicarbonate, and Y percent in the form of carbonate.
Total CO2 is defined as the sum of carbonic acid and bicarbonate.
Carbonic acid plays a very important role as a buffer in our blood. The equilibrium between carbon dioxide and carbonic acid is very important for controlling the acidity of body fluids, and the carbonic anhydrase increases the reaction rate by a factor of nearly a billion to keep the fluids at a stable pH.

In other words you shouldn't worry about CO2 in the water , more importantly you need to check the level of Sodium in sparkling water as this can potentially be harmful.
Most of the sparkling waters if not all are bicarbonated which means they have buffering effect, and some of them may contain Magnesium Cloride - such water has extra beneficial effect.

CO2 is dissolved in water according to temperature - lower temperature more CO2 is dissolved. Let's say you drink a glass of cold sparkling mineral water with a slice of lemon. Majority of dissolved CO2 heated by body temperature would change its state and become a swallowed gas separate from water. We all have experience about that. Minority of CO2 remain dissolved and enters the blood where it becomes a part of the buffer in line with your quote. There is also something I found to support my opinion which is that CO2 regardless its low concentration acidifies the blood a bit. The buffer system at healthy bodies will prevent pH changes while people who have disturbed acid/base equilibrium in blood and body fluids might feel effects.

From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonated_water
Carbonated water, also known as sparkling water, fizzy water, seltzer, water with gas, or soda water, is plain water into which carbon dioxide gas has been dissolved, and is the major and defining component of carbonated soft drinks (itself a class of aerated beverages). The process of dissolving carbon dioxide gas is called carbonation. While dissolved carbon dioxide in low concentrations (0.2 - 1.0%) cannot be tasted by humans, a small amount reacts with water to form carbonic acid (which has the chemical formula H2CO3). The higher concentration of carbonic acid in carbonated water gives the water a slightly sour flavour.
Sparkling mineral water is a negligible cause of dental erosion; also known as acid erosion. While the dissolution potential of sparkling water is greater than still water, levels remain low: by comparison, carbonated soft drinks cause tooth decay at a rate of several hundred times that of regular sparkling water. De-gassing of a sparkling mineral water reduces its dissolution potential, but the total levels are still relatively low, suggesting that the addition of sugar into water, not its carbonation, is the main cause of tooth decay.
Intake of carbonated beverages has not been associated with increased bone fracture risk in observational studies, and the net effect of carbonated beverage constituents on the amount of calcium in the body is negligible, leaving carbonated water as harmless as regular water.

And eventually, we do not need to agree all with the quotes and/or experts opinions in mainstream science.
S.

 

[Z...]

The quote you posted does not answers your question: is sparkling water harmful for consumption.

Well of course not, this question cannot be answered without thorough research, I merely attempted to reply to your statement that sparkling water acidifies the body which is not the case.

So far I haven't managed to find convincing arguments for the statement that sparkling water is harmful ( provided it has low Sodium content).
Dr Mercola seems to be totally ok with it, he advocates it on at least 5 of his pages and has several recipes and health tips containing sparkling water.

Today I checked the labels of most common sparkling waters in the supermarket. Seems San Pelegrino is the best, it is naturally carbonated, has very high level of bicarbonate and most importantly surpasses all other brands with Magnesium content - entire 52 mg/L, no Floruide. Perrier is definitely to be avoided - apart from very high Sodium content it contains significant amount of Flouride.

also this does make some sense:

The other problem with cola is that it is an acid-forming food — the phosphoric acid makes our blood more acidic. In a desperate bid to buffer this raised acidity, the body whips calcium — which is alkaline — from bones to restore the blood’s pH. This potentially makes cola a real bone-crumbler. Swap your cola for carbonated mineral water and it’s a different story. Unlike cola, carbonated mineral water is an alkali-forming food, rich in bicarbonate. This, according to a new study from Spain, makes it a bone-builder. The research showed that when women drank a litre of carbonated mineral water a day, they lost less calcium in their urine than when drinking still water. By helping to buffer blood acidity, the fizzy water seems to keep calcium locked in the bones.

Anyone following a high-protein diet would be well advised to accompany meals with a bottle of sparkling water. This is because, like cola, protein-rich foods such as fish, meat, chicken, turkey and game are acid-forming. Although these foods are essential for bone health, because the very framework of bones is protein-based (and because they are rich in vitamin B12, a lack of which is associated with higher levels of osteoporosis), too much protein — more than 25% of your daily calorie intake — may deplete the calcium in the bone.

Slurping down plenty of carbonated mineral water will help to buffer the acid-forming effect of such foods. San Pellegrino is a good choice: it is one of the richest in calcium, and has a reasonable slug of silica, a trace mineral that scientists are just recognizing as a vital ingredient in the nutritional cocktail required to create tough bones.