what happened to the Zeitgeist/Acharya thread?

Bernhard

Bernhard

Jedi Master
I don't know where to post this, but why was the Zeitgeist/Acharya thread deleted? For what reason? I actually enjoyed it. Laura made some good points, but I also liked the way the other person (forgot his/her name) was challenging some of Laura's arguments. I didn't notice any bad language or misbehavior. Yes, he/she was posting some questionable links (weren't they disabled?) and was being direct, but it seemed only as a response because he/she felt that Laura had posted some disinfo links about Acharya. I thought it was a good thread to talk about Acharya's work and let the research speak for itself why she's wrong or maybe she's right in some ways? I have no idea.
Personally I don't have enough background knowledge to participate or to judge, as I haven't read Acharya's work, nor have I read the authors Laura suggested to read, but it seemed that in both, Laura and Acharya's work, there are good points.
So why delete it? Why not move it to the Religion section or Backed Noodles if it was that bad? As Laura said, we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
In no way am I supporting Zeitgeist or Acharya's work here, I just felt this was a great opportunity to discuss in-depth this kind of topic.......for the sake of truth. I was looking forward to this and learn more about it.
 
Hold your horses, there Bernhard ;)

We're checking into it - I don't think it was purposefully deleted (thus the need to check into it) - I agree it was a good thread, so hopefully whatever happened will be rectified soon, or can be rectified - seems it was literally there one minute and gone the next - as soon as we figure it out, we'll let you know...
 
I decided to delete the thread and ban aziz simply because the topic is not worth pursuing for several reasons.

1) Lazlo Toth seems not to be involved any more other than to have posted the original article which started the nonsense. I don't have the time to "fight his battles for him." And nobody else seems to be all that interested or capable of doing the research or deal with the topic. And, since "Lazlo" isn't interested enough in THIS forum to finish what he started, I don't see any reason to support his agenda with MY time and energy. Yeah, I could spend the next few months going through Acharya's work line by line, reference by reference, but what's the point?

2) Someone using the name "Lazlo Toth" has posted this same item elsewhere, so it is not original to this forum as he/she suggested. Thus, it appears to be just a "flame job." The name "Lazlo Toth" is also a handle that has weird associations that do not lend themselves to the seriousness of the topic.

3) Acharya is a sloppy researcher in some instances, but I happen to agree with a lot of what she says even if I don't agree with ALL her reasons or the way she gets there. She makes some unsupported and unsupportable claims that do not agree with current Biblical research - or any research - but then that's her prerogative. I am unable to find any body of work by Lazlo Toth that supports HIS authority to criticize.

4) Aziz is just an Acharya bot. I don't see any reason for our forum to be hijacked for this flame war. Acharya is doing her thing according to her lights, she has the right. I don't see that she's hurting anybody.

5) If Lazlo wants to state his/her area of expertise and create a thread on the topic that he/she can handle, that's fine. Go for it. But tone down the references to Acharya personally and stick to the facts of the case.
 
On trying the restored link given above, the following message appears:

'Bad request. The link you followed is incorrect or outdated.'
 
Thanks for the clarification, Laura. Do you mind repeating the names of authors/researchers you suggested in that thread to look into for anyone interested in that subject?
 
Burton Mack, Thomas L. Thompson, John van Seters, Niels Peter Lemche, Phillip Davies, David Clines, Giovanni Garbini, Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman, Frederick J. Giles, Donald B. Redford, William L. Moran's translation of the Amarna letters, Keith Whitelam.

All books by all of them. That will get you started. But that's JUST getting started. I've got literally five bookcases full of books just on the topic of Judaism and Christianity - and not apologists, either. Yeah, I have a few apologists, but I generally put them in a different category. I have magazines - "biblical archaeology" and so on - stacked about five feet high.

If you are obsessed like I am, you will want to get a whole host of technical papers from journals, get the translations of every monument, papyrus, scroll, stele, whatever, and read them yourself. Some of these items are pretty pricey so hopefully, you have a good university library close by.
 
Here's a little bibliography I made after reading Keith Whitelam's "Invention of Ancient Israel":

1966 van Seters - The Hyksos
1974 Thompson - The Historicity of the Patriarchal Narratives
1975 van Seters - Abraham in History and Tradition
1983 van Seters - In Search of History
1987 Thompson - The Origin Tradition of Ancient Israel
1988 Garbini - History and Ideology in Ancient Israel
1991 Lemche - Canaanites and Their Land
1992 van Seters - Prologue to History
1992 Redford - Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times
1996 Whitelam - The Invention of Ancient Israel
1998 Lemche - The Israelites in History and Tradition
1998 Davies - Scribes and Schools
1998 Lemche - Prelude to Israel's Past
1999 Thompson - The Mythic Past
2001 Finkelstein and Silberman - The Bible Unearthed
2004 Lemche - A Historical Dictionary of Ancient Israel
2005 Thompson - The Messiah Myth
2006 Garbini - Myth and History in the Bible
2007 Davies - Origins of Biblical Israel
2008 Davies - Memories of Ancient Israel
2008 Lemche - The Old Testament Between Theology and History
2008 Davies - On the Origins of Judaism

"New Search"
1985 Lemche - Early Israel
1986 Ahlstrom - Who Were the Israelites?
1987 Coote and Whitelam - The Emergence of Early Israel
1988 Finkelstein - The Archaeology of Israelite Settlement
1988 Lemche - Ancient Israel
1990 Coote - Early Israel
1992 Thompson - The Early History of the Israelite People
1993 Ahlstrom - The History of Ancient Palestine
*1992 Davies - In Search of Ancient Israel (This one is something of a summary of all the above works)

Burton Mack's works are:
A Myth of Innocence
The Lost Gospel
Who Wrote the New Testament
The Christian Myth
 
On the subject of Whitelam, I really want to stress how good his "Invention of Ancient Israel" is. He shows how biblical studies have been heavily influenced by the politics of the time. He shows how historians project their current understandings of the regions in question onto the past. They invent a past that does not exist. It's striking how they present an image of ancient Palestine that is eerily similar to contemporary political situations. The archaeology shows that there was never such thing as an ancient Israeli empire. What's really interesting is that the archaeologists attempt to account for the destruction and social upheaval at the end of the Bronze Age in terms of ancient Israeli takeovers. However, this was a period of cometary bombardment (1150BC, as the dendrochronology shows). The destruction, population movement, political changes, etc. were natural reactions to climate change in catastrophic times.
 
Great list, Harrison, thanks!

One of the things I noticed years ago was the similarity of certain Bible stories to Greek myths. For example, the story of David and Goliath has all the elements of Perseus and Medusa. But that's not the only one. In Van Seters' examinations of the text, he frequently mentions the same thing and gives examples. This suggests that the Bible was written during Hellenic times (influenced by the fact that the Hellenes had these "myths of origin") and even utilized much of the Hellenic materials, re-worked for Hebrew purposes. Yes, of course, there are the obvious borrowings from Mesopotamian myths for creation stories, etc, but the Bible is a unique and clever blending of East and West. And that's not to say that there are not some seeds of real events in there.

As for the New Testament and Jesus, the best way to get a grip on this phenomenon is to read Mack and Thompson's "The Messiah Myth" which is an in-depth study of the origins of that type of myth. You will notice that it is linked to King David who was also a type of "messiah." Then, consider what I just noted, that the story of David is very similar to the story of Perseus - a type of "savior."

Mack's treatment of how the author of the book of Mark created his myth is fascinating and revealing. Of course, the whole time I was reading it I was thinking of the schizoidal psychopath as Lobaczewski describes him. Then, he covers how the myth got taken up, how it was used by others, and finally, how christianity morphed and grew. Mainly, it is a prime example of Ponerology and the activity of pathological deviants all the way around. It's classic.

What is omitted from all of these studies, of course, is an understanding of what was happening "outside" that may have been driving the activity, i.e. comets and disasters, famines, plagues, etc. For an understanding in those areas, one needs to read Mike Baillie - From Exodus to Arthur and New Light on the Black Death and The Celtic Gods. And most of all, Victor Clube's "The Cosmic Serpent."
 
Thanks Laura and Harrison for the extensive lists. That sure will get one started.......sometimes I'd wish there would be more time in the day to be able to get into all the topics I'm interested in and not be too distracted by "the machine". Focus is key. The thirst to know........does it ever stop?. Thanks "god" for this lighthouse here and direction. Much appreciated.
 
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