What is Imagination?

Carlybee

Carlybee

Padawan Learner
Where does our imagination come from? Our thoughts? The higher self? Recycled information and images?

Amazing discoveries, artwork, creativity, answers and so on came from imagination, is it possible that knowledge originates from imagination, or what we call the source's imagination therefore we accept it as knowledge?
 
Carlybee said:
Thanks Tykes, for some reason the navigation bar on the web page you gave me is overlaid on top of the text so I can only partially read it (maybe because Im using a MAC?).
Would you mind please copying and pasting the text here for me to read that would be much appreciated, thanks :)
Click to expand...

It looks like there's a problem with this page on the Safari browser, though it works fine in Mac Firefox. Anyway here's the text from the page:

Cassiopedia said:
Imagination in modern culture is often seen as a wonderful virtue and bringer of limitless possibility. We see this in phrases like 'only your imagination limits what you can do with' [pick a gadget of your choice].

In 4th Way discourse, the word imagination is seen somewhat differently. Imagination is one of the principal features of man which keep him asleep. Specially negative imagination and identification with it is a detrimental mechanical habit. Negative imagination consists of reviewing by means of automatic habitual association all manner of possible or impossible calamities which might befall one. Knowing about the world's dangers is even necessary but habitually dwelling on them in lurid reveries of horrors is counter-productive. The key distinction here is between mental activity which leads to action and mental activity which alone seeks to generate more similar mental activity.

Positive reveries are not much better, they also represent subjectivity and tend to separate one from reality, i.e. from being awake.

We can of course ask 'what about creativity? Is this not predicated on imagination?'

This is a complex question. Most artistic expression, says Gurdjieff, is 'subjective art.' The artist expresses his inner subjective world and the art in question evokes essentially random responses in others, since the inner worlds of people are generally dissimilar and precise understanding between people is at best a game of chance. Such furthers sleep and further subjectivity.

There is a possibility of objective art but this is rare. Furthermore, the sleeping person may not have a way of distinguishing it from subjective art. Generally, objective art is based on knowledge of the workings of human emotions and cognition and is intended for carrying a conscious message, for producing certain definite impressions. Of course, receiving these impressions requires a certain preparation on behalf of the receiver. But if this readiness exists, objective art will be understood by the beholders in a compatible manner, according to the capacity of each.

We could say that subjective art is expression of self purely based on inner considering. Objective art has an element of external considering and deliberateness.

In the 4th Way sense we could say that imagination is simple mechanical recombination of existing contents. Creativity on the other hand is more akin to tapping into objective contents and giving them a conscious expression in whatever form. One may choose to express beauty of nature, study this, experience this, consider how to render it so that the experience can be reconstructed and then realize this as a work of art. This is much more conscious than mechanical associations which are referred to as imagination and overvalued in today's culture.

Impressions on the other hand are called the 'third being food' and are an absolute necessity for life. One can be without breathing for 2 minutes but one cannot be without impressions for any length of time. Of course the very fact of having a body provides a minimum feed of impressions.

The quality of impressions assimilated by one may vary greatly. What the organism produces with its psychophysical metabolism varies in function of the raw materials. The organism is so constructed that man cannot eat other things than what he does, nor can he breathe anything but air. The intake of impressions is not however as restricted.

For producing so-called 'higher hydrogens' the quality of the impressions, themselves also a hydrogen, is important. Self-remembering while assimilating impressions helps the air octave to develop past the first shock, thus potentially producing higher hydrogens. The impressions themselves evolve in the system according to their own octave. Depending on their quality and intensity, the effects for transmuting them to higher hydrogens may vary dramatically. The higher hydrogens, on the other hand are the energy necessary for the correct functioning of the centers, specially for access to the higher centers.

The experience of objective art can be seen as food for the higher functions. The experience of mechanical imagination, when one imagines only dissipates energy. Nourishing oneself on subjective imaginings of others generally has the effect of reinforcing the corresponding functions of imagination within the self. Man can write libraries of books while entirely asleep and these same books will only cause others to sleep all the deeper. Objective art cannot be created while asleep, it needs to be a product of conscious work intended for a purpose.

The metabolism of hydrogens is explained in detail in In Search of the Miraculous.
Click to expand...
 
For four years, i stopped my drawings, because they were not what i wanted to show. It was more of the same. I was copying what already existed. And the closest thing to something objective, was something that did not exist, or see life between "lines". I looked at and search in the films that showed a impossible reality, a fantasy. However, only ended up feeding the imagination. More subjectivity. And when I make a drawing for someone, i am obliged to give life to the subjective imagination of another person.

Create a subjective design with which the masses feel identified., also is manipulation of their minds, right? if the design has a commercial purpose. Attract people. Catch the customer and buy the product.

People have become in human photocopies. The design graphic is a means by which the subjective art, increasingly leads people to bed, to sleep. Every day i hear more people say, "i want to do a design, with which, people, the masses are identified." But always try to have a symbiotic relationship with the client. I ask him, about his tastes, his colors, his vision. For create the design, based on their own thinking and not mine. But many say "You're the designe", ok i'm the designer, but i'm not their mind.
 
Where does it come from? If its active then you 'do' it. If passive then I expect it is subsconscious processes, individual centres dreaming, and if lucky or worked hard then perhaps inspiration rather than imagination.

Every stick has two ends.

Gurdjieffs rally against imagination was more against emotional imagination or daydreaming. EG Imagining one to be not what one really is. Imagining 'getting ones own back', imagining 'being famous, important', imagining people will fee sorry for hurting you as long as you stay in your 'hurt mood' long enough.

absolutely nothing wrong with Imagination used to plan a journey. the imagination you need to get plan building a house, preparing a meal, combining flavours.

Gurdjieff wrote over 200 pieces of music, introduced something like 46 complete movements to the West, many of which he created. He spent 10 years writing books, He planned an escape from a Russia in chaos via Turkey, Germany ending up in France. I think he used creative imagination somewhere along the line, maybe :).
 
G's view on imagination/daydreaming in ISOTM seems to be that it keeps man asleep and away from reality.
[quote author=ISOTM]
"'Imagination' is one of the principal sources of the wrong work of centers. Each center has its own form of imagination and daydreaming, but as a rule both the moving and the emotional centers make use of the thinking center which very readily places itself at their disposal for this purpose, because daydreaming corresponds to its own inclinations. Daydreaming is absolutely the opposite of 'useful' mental activity. 'Useful' in this case means activity directed towards a definite aim and undertaken for the sake of obtaining a definite result. Daydreaming does not pursue any aim, does not strive after any result. The motive for daydreaming always lies in the emotional or in the moving center. The actual process is carried on by the thinking center. The inclination to daydream is due partly to the laziness of the thinking center, that is, its attempts to avoid the efforts connected with work directed towards a definite aim and going in a definite direction, and partly to the tendency of the emotional and the moving centers to repeat to themselves, to keep alive or to recreate experiences, both pleasant and unpleasant, that have been previously lived through or 'imagined.' Daydreaming of disagreeable, morbid things is very characteristic of the unbalanced state of the human machine, After all, one can understand daydreaming of a pleasant kind and find logical justification for it. Daydreaming of an unpleasant character is an utter absurdity. And yet many people spend nine tenths of their lives in just such painful daydreams about misfortunes which may overtake them or their family, about illnesses they may contract or sufferings they will have to endure. Imagination and daydreaming are instances of the wrong work of the thinking center.
.....................................
He does not see the real world. The real world is hidden from him by the wall of imagination. He lives in sleep.
[/quote]

Dabrowski treats imagination as an important function which is required for development. He identifies emotional, intellectual and imaginational overexcitabilities as essential ingredients for universal development which is driven by conscious choice or what he calls the autonomous factor of development. One of the threads discussing Dabrowski's theory is here .

Regarding imaginational overexcitability Dabrowski writes
[quote author=Multilevelness of Emotional And Instinctive Functions]
Imaginational overexcitability in its pure form manifests itself through association of images and impressions, inventiveness, use of image and metaphor in verbal expression, strong and sharp visualization. In its "impure" form emotional tension is transferred to dreams, nightmares, mixing truth and fiction, fears of the unknown, etc. Imaginational overexcitability leads to an intense living in the world of fantasy, predilection for fairy and magic tales, poetic creations, or invention of fantastic stories.
[/quote]
The faculty of imagination is used in creating mental images and expressing the same in verbal or other means. In this way it seems that it helps express an aspect of the emotional center and enriches the overall inner landscape of a person. This could be one right use of the faculty of imagination.
Dabrowski also talks about the multilevelness of this function of imagination - it expresses itself differently based on the level of development of the person.
[quote author=Multilevelness of Emotional And Instinctive Functions]
Level 1 (Primary Integration): Imagination is in the service of sensualism and impulsiveness. It is manifested in confabulation, facile mendacity, identification with such externally defined roles as for instance, the office of the president or "I am the boss". It is also manifested in theatrical gestures to enhance the effect. Mesmerism of rally and revival speakers belongs here as well.
Level 2 (Unilevel Disintegration): Productive and seemingly fertile creativity, primitive suggestibility (magic, witchcraft, spiritism), success in acting on stage but not as the highest and universal art. Unselective taste for fantasy and adventure stories. Occasionally intense visions of the future, egocentric fantasy (self-delusion) and anxiety states. Frequent dreams and daydreaming, interest in dream symbolism, especially sexual.
Level 3 (Spontaneous Multilevel Disintegration): Imaginational overexcitability becomes more closely associated with emotional and intellectual forms. There is differentiation of "lower" from the "higher" in imagination and creativity. Dreams and symbolic contents are distinctly multilevel. Dreams and visions of the ideal. Creative instinct makes contact with the instinct of self-perfection.
Level 4 (Organized Multilevel Disintegration): Level 3 characteristics become intensified at this level. They serve as tools of conscious development of personality; they become more fully engaged in the realization of the transcendental needs.
[/quote]

It seems that in ISOTM G was referring mainly to imagination and daydreaming as they manifest in levels 1 and 2 in Dabrowski's terms. Imagination does seem to play an important role in development when its function is harmonized with those of the emotion and intellect.
 
Imagination is thought – pure and simple. As I am writing this, I am imagining what I am going to say and how I should write it.
Imagination is important to our survival and to our everyday life. We imagine the homes that we live in, the pipe lines that carry our water, the planes that allow us to visit distant places. All of this comes from imagination.

Think of it this way – you wouldn’t be on this forum right now if someone hadn’t imagined it and then executed what they imagined. Which comes down to the fact that thought and imagination are the seed of existence. “ I think, therefore I am”

As for art and the like – These are just my thoughts but take the Birth of Venus by Botticelli for instance. At her side are gliding angels. Are there angels like that that exist on Earth? I’ve never seen one but that doesn’t mean there aren’t any like that somewhere else. Who’s to say? It’s his head and he painted them. But what I’m getting at is that the imagination in this respect is like another universe that belongs solely to us. It is us expressing our desire be more than what we are and to make it visible on the outside. In each brain is another reality.

Just what I think ~
 
I am not entirely sure what to take from this. On one hand we have Galaxia saying imagination is something useful on the other hand we have G in the ISOTM saying imagination is the principle source of the wrong working of the centres and the cassiopedia saying imagination is counter-productive to the work.

I have a big problem with imagination. Especially when it comes to music. When I listen to music, my mind flows. It just goes. I cant keep it steady - locked in the now. It flows into far and distant places. Places that I am sure are not real, maybe they could be real, maybe they couldnt. I have no idea. What I know is that it flows. The moving centre, the emotional centre and the thinking centre are all active. I am not sure if they are busy stealing energy from each other or what.... I do play an active role in this flow, sometimes I choose where I want to go..

This is therapeutic to me.. Sometimes if I am feeling abit stressed, or abit happy, or even abit bored. I can listen to music and just let my mind flow.

My question is, is this something I should not do? Should I stop listening to music in an attempt to stop imagination???

I rarely imagine in daily life, sometimes I do like described here, negative imaginations and daydreamings like what G describes usually as a mechanical reaction to escape some situation or as an addiction to ones own situation.

However this and what happens when I listen to music, is pretty much the same. I dont listen to music inorder to invoke real life change nor do I day dream in order to invoke real life change, they both just generate more similar mental activity.

Now if somebody told me to stop listening to music.... I think i'd get sick, like literally. Without music what else do we have? I rarely look at a piece of art and go Wow, like when I listen to music. I mean you see all kinds of shapes and forms on the canvas but that is it. It makes you go like, well I have no idea what the artist is trying to say but he sure does know how to draw/paint... Or if I watch a movie, I get so sucked into it I have no time to explore my mind. With music there seems to be a symbiotic kind of relationship and this relationship promotes mental activity of a different kind.... Almost of a euphoric kind. Sometimes I could listen to music for hours on end.... I dont listen to the words, I dont listen to go wow, what a good drummer or anything like that. I listen to the whole body. Everysingle aspect that makes that a piece, I rarely distinguish one from the other... I do not have a specific genre I listen to, I listen to everything! The only thing I look for is how I react to it.. If I react nicely to it, then I continue listening to it. If I dont, then I stop. Some music challenge you in a different way, to see what about it makes it special eventhough at first sight it might appear otherwise...

Another point, sometimes music provides my mind with some kind of fuel. Fuel to go to places where it otherwise cant go to. Maybe fuel to dive deeper and deeper into imaginings that have no place in reality??? Without such imaginings however, I do not think I would have questioned the world, I do not think I would be here, in this forum, I do not think I would have questioned the assumptions placed on us in this reality that enforce the illusions.... It is very hard to describe this in words...


So what should I do???? Am i just trying to defend that which is keeping me asleep?

I will try and stop the more classical day dreaming or revelling in negative imagination as I do agree this is bad for the centres... What about this other kind that is invoked by a 3rd source eg music in my case or other forms of art to a milder extent such as movies?

Hmm, I have re-read the extract from ISOTM.

And yet many people spend nine tenths of their lives in just such painful daydreams about misfortunes which may overtake them or their family, about illnesses they may contract or sufferings they will have to endure. Imagination and daydreaming are instances of the wrong work of the thinking center.
.....................................
He does not see the real world. The real world is hidden from him by the wall of imagination. He lives in sleep.
Click to expand...

I worry about the future. Oh, how I worry. This worry might be fueled by imagination - the worry might be an act of imagination. Or it might act as an inclination to ACT. To change so that such a future doesnt materialise. For example you might worry about failing some exams, therefore you would revise harder... It is hard to make the distinction. This worry might act as something to prepare oneself.

What I have noticed from reading this thread. Is how Imagination is a minefield of complexity.... Maybe I am attributing other things to imagination, that arent imagination. They all look so similar it's hard to tell them apart.
 
Hi Luke,
Imagination is a form of dissociation from reality. Instead of "what is", imagination takes us to "what could be". Imagination is powerful - and like all powerful things it can be beneficial or harmful. There is a thread on Positive Dissociation which discusses this topic.
In the first post of the thread on Positive Dissociation, Laura wrote
[quote author=Laura]

It seems to me that the significance of dissociating depends entirely on
what happens during that time - on the content - and, most importantly,
WHY it is being done.

Daydreaming, watching movies, playing games, reading, used as a form of
learn, experimentation and rehearsal of real-life issues that are played
out free from the constraints of reality, where we can give free rein to
our emotions and ideas so as to test them, wonder about them, and then
select good ones and make plans to implement them, seems to me to be
healthy and life-affirming.

Pathological dissociation serve no other purpose than to engulf us in a
fantasy world as an escape from real life and dealing with our issues.
Sure, it may restore our hope or "good feeling" momentarily, but when it
is over, we have no new thoughts about what to do next, how to do it,
how to bring our dissociative fantasy back with us into real-world
practical issues. We have stolen energy from somebody else's fantasy
instead of finding the wellspring of our own creativity.

Our time spent in dissociation should enrich our lives, give us ideas
about how to reshape our lives, change our programs, create new patterns
of behavior, and so on. They should not be an escape that is only
temporary, and when we emerge from it we are still trapped in our old
feelings that we are helpless and unlovable.
[/quote]

You wrote about imagination in the context of listening to music. It is well-established that certain kinds of music has therapeutic properties. Music can be used to rejuvenate and recharge oneself. Now you wrote
[quote author=Luke Wilson]
When I listen to music, my mind flows. It just goes. I cant keep it steady - locked in the now. It flows into far and distant places. Places that I am sure are not real, maybe they could be real, maybe they couldnt. I have no idea. What I know is that it flows. The moving centre, the emotional centre and the thinking centre are all active. I am not sure if they are busy stealing energy from each other or what.... I do play an active role in this flow, sometimes I choose where I want to go..
..........................................
I rarely imagine in daily life, sometimes I do like described here, negative imaginations and daydreamings like what G describes usually as a mechanical reaction to escape some situation or as an addiction to ones own situation.

However this and what happens when I listen to music, is pretty much the same. I dont listen to music inorder to invoke real life change nor do I day dream in order to invoke real life change, they both just generate more similar mental activity.
.............................................
With music there seems to be a symbiotic kind of relationship and this relationship promotes mental activity of a different kind.... Almost of a euphoric kind. Sometimes I could listen to music for hours on end
[/quote]
If I understand you correctly, then you seem to be saying that you get a temporary "high" on listening to music but you do not think it helps you out in real life. May I ask you how you feel mentally and physically some time after listening to music? Do you feel refreshed physically and mentally or do you feel drained?
I have had a strong imagination from childhood and I used to take refuge in it routinely to escape the reality of my situation. I could dissociate at will - did not need any props. Some part of it was addictive - it gave a temporary high without changing anything. Some part of it helped me take actions in real life - and some of these actions helped grow and some set me back. I can see how many of the helpful and painful aspects of my life at present are a direct reflection of my earlier escapades into the fantasy world. So from my experience, imagination has the potential to be a very powerful agent in our lives - so it is best used wisely. As Laura wrote above, the content of the imagination is very important and you may want to pay special attention to it.
fwiw
 
obyvatel said:
If I understand you correctly, then you seem to be saying that you get a temporary "high" on listening to music but you do not think it helps you out in real life. May I ask you how you feel mentally and physically some time after listening to music? Do you feel refreshed physically and mentally or do you feel drained?
Click to expand...

Hi obyvatel

Oh, I wouldnt describe it as a high. More of an escape. I dissociate from reality eventhough usually sometimes I am still focussed on like an object or something. Sometimes I am completely blind, especially when it happens without any props. Once I had someone sneak up on me right infront of my face, my eyes were opened and everything but I was so far gone I didnt actually see him. I am sure I saw him but my brain didnt register that I am seeing someone walk upto me.

With music, I feel more like a rejuvenation takes place. Like renewal, a kind of curing? However, it is harder and harder to find music that has this effect nowadays. I listen to whatever music I have but it has the opposite effect where I actually feel like my body is rejecting it, my body even reacts negatively to it, I get all kinds of hot spots, get itchy and stuff. It takes alot of work to try and get whatever useful thing there is in this kind of music. I also feel like the music nowadays doesnt allow you to go as deep. By the music nowadays I mean the music that is well marketed and easily available. Why am I not surprised?

It doesnt necessarily help me out interms of changing my behaviour, I just feel better afterwards. Like for example how you might feel better after a good night sleep. It does however also allow me to really work on current issues in my life and maybe as a result of this I do change how I act. Infact come to think of it, I usually listen mostly to music when I do have an outstanding issue in my life that is eating away at me so I feel like it needs my attention and off I go to planet La la land to try and hammer this out to see how I can respond and also to not let it eat at me anymore. Usually to do with emotional issues.

However, due to my addiction or my inclination to this, I persist with music that my body doesnt like as this is the only music available or that I know off or that I can find and this doesnt make me feel better. Good music is really hard to find. The effect is like when you sleep badly and you feel groggy afterwards. Atleast you got some sleep. Better than getting no sleep at all.

In a weird way, you could say, I eat music. Hmm, that is weird. Hmm who knows what the purpose of music is? Maybe this is one of them.

I do not know about creativity as Laura is talking about....

Thanks for making me aware of that thread. It looks quite interesting.
 
luke wilson said:
obyvatel said:
If I understand you correctly, then you seem to be saying that you get a temporary "high" on listening to music but you do not think it helps you out in real life. May I ask you how you feel mentally and physically some time after listening to music? Do you feel refreshed physically and mentally or do you feel drained?
Click to expand...

Hi obyvatel

Oh, I wouldnt describe it as a high. More of an escape.
Click to expand...
Hi Luke,
Since you had used the word "euphoric" in this connection, I had made that comment.

[quote author=luke wilson]
I dissociate from reality eventhough usually sometimes I am still focussed on like an object or something. Sometimes I am completely blind, especially when it happens without any props. Once I had someone sneak up on me right infront of my face, my eyes were opened and everything but I was so far gone I didnt actually see him. I am sure I saw him but my brain didnt register that I am seeing someone walk upto me.
[/quote]
That type of dissociation is something you may want to watch out for. Losing complete awareness of surroundings can be detrimental or even dangerous depending on the environment.

[quote author=luke wilson]
With music, I feel more like a rejuvenation takes place. Like renewal, a kind of curing? However, it is harder and harder to find music that has this effect nowadays. I listen to whatever music I have but it has the opposite effect where I actually feel like my body is rejecting it, my body even reacts negatively to it, I get all kinds of hot spots, get itchy and stuff. It takes alot of work to try and get whatever useful thing there is in this kind of music. I also feel like the music nowadays doesnt allow you to go as deep. By the music nowadays I mean the music that is well marketed and easily available. Why am I not surprised?
................................
However, due to my addiction or my inclination to this, I persist with music that my body doesnt like as this is the only music available or that I know off or that I can find and this doesnt make me feel better. Good music is really hard to find. The effect is like when you sleep badly and you feel groggy afterwards. Atleast you got some sleep. Better than getting no sleep at all.
In a weird way, you could say, I eat music. Hmm, that is weird. Hmm who knows what the purpose of music is? Maybe this is one of them.
[/quote]
Gurdjieff had said in ISOTM that impressions are food. If you listen to some types of music, you have unpleasant physical reactions. Perhaps the content of your imagination also changes in this case compared to what you imagine when you are listening to music which you feel rejuvenates you? You may want to start recording the content of your imagination when you listen to different types of music. As I see it, this could help you in a couple of ways. You would be consciously recapitulating your imaginary content at a later time and this could make you more aware as to what is going on when you dissociate with different types of music. This could also let you uncover any patterns that may be present in your imaginary content - like correlation of certain types of thoughts with certain types of music. That could help you be more picky about the type of music you listen to. Or it could even be possible that there is no discernible pattern - which would tell you something entirely different.
fwiw
 
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