What is it about 'faith' that hold some people hostage?

[dant]

Hi all,

I was away from SOTT for a little while, busy with personal hobbies
and the holidays. With my complete changes to self WRT Cassiopaea,
Ra, TBOTD, Gurjeiff(sp?), ..., I have left my hermit existance and have
decided to mingle with people, being invited to attend the holiday parties.

Since it is the holidays, many of the peoples I have encountered are of
different backgrounds but invariably most I have encountered are of the
christian faiths. I have tried hard not to cause distruptions at these parties
and to keep conversations generic or neutral, and simply tried to place
myself as an observer among friends, but mostly strangers. I have
simply allowed others to start the 'religious' conversation and being
a Christmas holiday, I knew that these subjects would crop up and
only then, I would very briefly throw in my new understanding of
subjects related to CASS/RA/TBOTD and so on.

But what I have found is, generally speaking, that many of the peoples
I have encountered have many deeply ingrained belief systems and I was
quite surprised at just how strong they were at holding onto their "scared
cows". I was acutely aware that any discussions outside of their belief
systems would be sure to cause dissension. So, I decided to simply state
very brief statements as to my views as an alternative view and simply let
it fly at that. I was not going to allow myself to get into confrontation and
simply see how the respondents, if any, would try to 'set me on the right
path'. It was a truly amazing experience. I was truly amazed just how
asleep some of these individuals might be.

But the one thing that really caught my attention is the subject of 'faith'.

Some have attempted to explain faith as this: "It is the belief that some
things are beyond human understanding and perception, and for that
reason, we are called to accept the divine order as it is." If I understood
what some are saying in the conversation as it was presented, it is the
belief that humans are not capable of thinking for themselves, and it is
blaphemous to even think that we can become G-d or like G-d.

One person asked me specifically - just how do I pursue this knowledge
and to what source this knowledge originates. This person even went so
far as to admonish me (me, being just an observer and simply listening
"intently") to say that I must contact the 'right knowledgable person or
persons', and in this case, a priest, padre, theologian, etc., so that I might
be set on the 'right path' and so basically from what I can gather from
this person's perspective, is that we are ALL ignorant lay-persons and
cannot correctly THINK for ourselves and any attempts to do so would
place ourselves into great personal risk. I surely wonder, how then,
can one be able to remove themselves from this 'FAITH' concept, as
I see 'faith' as a LIMITER of self and the pursuit of knowledge.
AMAZING!

Another subject I encountered was on the subject of suffering.

It seems that this subject touches a nerve on many people and
perhaps of many different faiths, I don't know for sure. But it seems,
that some believe, that suffering is a necessary requirement in order
to 'save souls' and this is implied to mean souls other than yourself.
Some believe this is the salvation that we are called to do because
the bible says so. From what I can gather here, it seems to me that
it is pure ignorance that causes suffering and I had stated to them
on this subject that 'from ignorance, WE cause suffering as it is a
reflection from what is within, and that sometimes these ignorances
are caused by others as well. Well, when I stated that of course, it
was interesting to see that there was discourse but fortunately it was
left as it is and I refused to allow myself to get into any controntation
and simply let it be at that.

Well - in conclusion - it was interesting and quite enlightning and my
family had enjoyed it when I explained what went on.

Happy holidays!
Dan

 

[doormouse]

Wow. Congrats on surviving Christmas among Christians! It can be rough. (I've been doing it all my life!) :)

I was raised fundamentalist Christian and have never understood them. I have even gone through a couple of fundamentalist phases of my own and ultimately, I just do not get it. But I will try to explain.

Faith, blind faith, in something that cannot be proved (and cannot be disproved) provides some people with an amazing sense of security and safety. (Everything is according to G-d's plan, so I don't need to worry about anything.) Based on observing my relatives, it seems that they desperately need someone in authority, outside of themselves, to tell them what is right, what is wrong, what they can do, and what they cannot do. They need someone to think for them, because the prospect of doing so for themselves is - I don't know - too daunting? Too frightening?

I got in quite a bit of trouble in Sunday School the year I was 11. The SS Teacher (no pun intended!), just rubbed me all wrong.

On one occasion he was explaining to us that anyone who has heard the gospel and denied it, would go to hell. Standard doctrine. I asked if that meant that an Orthodox Jew who had lived his entire life following the law and doing the best he knew how, according to his beliefs, would go to hell. Our instructor assured me that yes, the man would. But, I asked, what about someone who lives in the jungle in Africa and has never heard the gospel. The instructor said that, at this stage of the world (1969 this was), the gospel had been taken to every corner of the earth and everyone living had had a opportunity to hear. Therefore, anyone who had not accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior would go to hell.

This was too much for me. I thought G-d was loving and merciful. But this guy was telling me that if you so much as heard the name of Jesus and did not believe, you would be condemned for all time. The teacher's response was that even the most loving father must discipline his children. Excuse me? Forever? No second chances?

On another occasion, the same teacher told us that before Jesus, there was no love in the world.

Just think about that statement for a minute.

And I said "you mean before Jesus was born, mothers didn't love their babies?"

And the teacher said....hang on ... it's coming ...

"Yes." And not only that; he said that non-Christian mothers do not love their babies.

Now I'm sorry gang, but at 11 I knew that was the stupidest thing anyone had ever said to me.

This was a Sunday School Teacher, talking to 11 year olds. What a horrible scary world that man must live in where mothers don't love their children and one wrong step sends you to hell forever.

Then of course, there is the issue of "backsliding". Backsliding, essentially, is falling from grace after you have been "saved". Some sects will tell you that backsliding is not scriptural and others will tell you that you must be on your guard constantly; that you could actually lose your salvation.

And if you believed that - I mean REALLY believed it - you couldn't afford to question. I mean, what if I'm struck dead in a moment of doubt? I believed all my life but now I'm going to hell becuase I died with a question on my lips?

I'm not suggesting that all Christian's believe this way. But I have met many who do. And you cannot have an objective conversation with them on the topic, because logic and reason are tools that the devil uses to lead us astray. Really.

On the subject of suffering, my most devout relatives will tell you that suffering is how G-d shapes us. It's like we are a precious metal that is to be shaped into a beautiful object. The metal has to be heated and beaten repeatedly until it finally takes on the shape the craftsman has in mind. I have an Aunt who has suffered terrible health all her life. And she embraces her ailments with gratitude, because G-d is shaping her into something precious.

Personally I agree with you Dan. Suffering comes from ignorance. And I would never try to tell my Aunt that.

I truly admire your brave attempt to understand our silly religion. I think that modern Christianity is not anything close to what the original "Jesus people" had in mind.

Oh - what is TBOTD? That's an acronym I haven't come across before.

 

[dant]

Hi 'doormouse',

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Yes, I chuckled along with you and find
your experiences interesting as mine was similar but I was one of those kids
with suppressed questions for fear of riducule and a severe hearing loss and
too embarassed to ask the teacher 'what did you say?' over and over so that
did not help. I had to learn everything on my own anyway because teachers
didn't care that I was 1 in 32 students/class did not deserve special attention,
not that I was seeking it.

Anyway, on the subject of those who hold scared cows, it is amazing truly and
as you already know, some might become violent and attack. I almost had
this happen to me but luckily I averted it. I guess I learned to preface my
statements as a 'what if...' or 'I heard of an alternative view and I'd like to
hear what you think of it...' or many variations of that. Seems to work so
far.

Of course, I was slowly trying to introduce certain concepts into the discussion
in hopes that some day, sleeping people might wake up and maybe they will
at the last miniute when the "harvest" comes a-calling... dunno. We'll see.

BTW: TBOTD="The Bringers Of The Dawn" is a eBook from Barbara Marciniak
and the website is: http://www.cosmic-people.com/english/books/bringers.htm

 

[Thomas Alan]

dant, doormouse: When I was a kid I found the adults sometimes to be frustrating and a little frightening. They behaved as if they already knew everything that was important. I would ask questions of them that were often met with laughter and ridicule or just stone silence. Becoming an adult was to have your soul turned to concrete, forever unchangable. Well their beliefs looked solid at first but turned out to be a plastic baloon. One pointed question could collapse their whole world.
As I grew I found that I could choose what I wanted to read and learn and pursue the truth where ever it lead me.
Still, as you do dant, I like to drop powerful concepts casually into the conversation. Perhaps there is someone present secretly longing to jolted awake.

 

[Kesdjan]

On the subject of suffering, my most devout relatives will tell you that suffering is how G-d shapes us. It's like we are a precious metal that is to be shaped into a beautiful object. The metal has to be heated and beaten repeatedly until it finally takes on the shape the craftsman has in mind. I have an Aunt who has suffered terrible health all her life. And she embraces her ailments with gratitude, because G-d is shaping her into something precious.

The question of suffering needs to distinguish between mecanical and conscious suffering. From the glossary:

The 4th Way has a complex notion involving conscious and automatic suffering, seen as being diametrically opposite in their effects.

Gurdjieff speaks of the holy 'being partkdolg duty' in Beelzebub's Tales. This is defined as consisting of conscious labors and intentional suffering and is an impulse necessary for man's development towards objective reason and being.

This is not to be confused with mechanical suffering, which is the emotional or physical reaction to anything ordinarily painful. This 'feeds the moon,' whereas intentional suffering and conscious labors produce internal friction which is necessary for crystallizing anything of lasting value. The difference between the two types of suffering can be quite subtle and often ambiguous.

Ouspensky quotes Gurdjieff in In Search of the Miraculous:

'… If there is anything in the world that people do not understand it is the idea of sacrifice. They think they have to sacrifice something that they have. For example, I once said that they must sacrifice 'faith,' 'tranquillity,' 'health.' They understand this literally. But then the point is that they have not got either faith, or tranquillity, or health. All these words must be taken in quotation marks. In actual fact they have to sacrifice only what they imagine they have and which in reality they do not have. They must sacrifice their fantasies. But this is difficult for them, very difficult. It is much easier to sacrifice real things. "Another thing that people must sacrifice is their suffering. It is very difficult also to sacrifice one's suffering. A man will renounce any pleasures you like but he will not give up his suffering. Man is made in such a way that he is never so much attached to anything as he is to his suffering. And it is necessary to be free from suffering. No one who is not free from suffering, who has not sacrificed his suffering, can work. Later on a great deal must be said about suffering. Nothing can be attained without suffering but at the same time one must begin by sacrificing suffering. Now, decipher what this means."

From Beelzebub's Tales:

"He [Buddha] then, among other things, told them very definitely the following: "'One of the best means of rendering ineffective the predisposition present in your nature of the crystallization of the consequences of the properties of the organ Kundabuffer is "intentional-suffering"; and the greatest intentional suffering can be obtained in your presences if you compel yourselves to be able to endure the "displeasing-manifestations-of-others-towards-yourselves."'

And later:

'The factors for the being-impulse conscience arise in the presences of the three-brained beings from the localization of the particles of the "emanations-of-the-sorrow" of our OMNI-LOVING AND LONG-SUFFERING-ENDLESS CREATOR; that is why the source of the manifestation of genuine conscience in three-centered beings is sometimes called the REPRESENTATIVE OF THE CREATOR. "'And this sorrow is formed in our ALL-MAINTAINING COMMON FATHER from the struggle constantly proceeding in the Universe between joy and sorrow. In all three-brained beings of the whole of our Universe without exception, among whom are also we men, owing to the data crystallized in our common presences for engendering in us the Divine impulse of conscience, "the-whole-of-us" and the whole of our essence, are, and must be, already in our foundation, only suffering. And they must be suffering, because the completed actualizing of the manifestation of such a being-impulse in us can proceed only from the constant struggle of two quite opposite what are called "complexes-of-the- functioning" of those two sources which are of quite opposite origin, namely, between the processes of the functioning of our planetary body itself and the parallel functionings arising progressively from the coating and perfecting of our higher being-bodies within this planetary body of ours, which functionings in their totality actualize every kind of Reason in the three-centered beings. "'In consequence of this, every three-centered being of our Great Universe, and also we men existing on the Earth, must, owing to the presence in us also of the factors for engendering the Divine impulse of "Objective Conscience," always inevitably struggle with the arising and the proceeding within our common presences of two quite opposite functionings giving results always sensed by us either as "desires" or as "nondesires." And so, only he, who consciously assists the process of this inner struggle and consciously assists the "nondesires" to predominate over the desires, behaves just in accordance with the essence of our COMMON FATHER CREATOR HIMSELF; whereas he who with his consciousness assists the contrary, only increases HIS sorrow.'

We could say that mechanical suffering is rooted in subjectivity and consideration for self. Intentional or conscious suffering is on the other hand rooted in internal struggle for objectivity. It is choosing the higher in the place of the lower, choosing external considering in the place of internal considering, for example. Of course before this makes sense, there must exist some sort of taste for differentiating between these.

So it comes to be that the illusion of being virtuous because one happens to feel pain must be sacrificed, whereas the internal struggle towards objectivity must be embraced. Man's natural complacency and mechanicality, not to mention the General Law, will offer all the adversary one might wish for. In Gurdjieff's words, the Creator's joy is in creation struggling towards truth. This joy cannot be without the struggle, just as there cannot be free will without the presence of alternatives.

Also there is suffering which is an enivitable part of existence- unavoidable suffering. It seems this type of suffering is benificial so-long as it is experience rather than suppressed.

"And this time, beyond any doubt, I again established that during the
first three years of my authorship, my labour-ability, as well as my
productivity, in reality at all times strictly corresponded in its
duration with the length and quality of the, so to say, "degree of
contact" between my consciousness and the suffering proceeding in me
on behalf of my mother and my wife."

It seems some suffering is necessary for evolution- Gurdjieff writes:

"One needs fire. Without fire, there will never be anything. This fire
is suffering, intentional suffering, without which it is impossible to
create anything. One must prepare, must know what will make one suffer
and when it is there, make use of it. Only you can prepare, only you
know what makes you suffer, makes the fire which cooks, cements,
crystallizes, DOES. Suffer by your defects, in your pride, in your
egoism. Remind yourself of the aim. Without prepared suffering there
is nothing, for by as much as one is conscious, there is no more
suffering. No further process, nothing. That is why with your
conscience you must prepare what is necessary. You owe to nature. The
food you eat which nourishes your life. You must pay for these cosmic
substances. You have a duty, an obligation, to repay by conscious
work."

BTW, why do you guys write G-D, I'm sure that if there is a God he won't care what you call him.