What is objectivity based on?

tridean

Jedi Master
I think I have become too entangled in all the information gathering of late and have become quite confused again. I made a post in the music section of this forum here: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=2633.msg149047#msg149047 and the response I got triggered a question I have found myself asking more and more of late.

My question is simply, what facts do we base objectivity on? Are there any facts at all in our existence. Can we say with any 100% accuracy that any fact that has ever been declared a fact is in fact 100% 'a fact'. Is to declare something 'a fact' to declare it is indisputable 100% truth?

This question has haunted me recently, and I am not sure why. In some instances on this forum, I have read that it is up to us to do our own research, to gather information ourselves which I have been doing, but I have become overloaded I think . Is it that I have to go back to a certain point and then continue on, you know similar to doing a system restore on a computer?

Another reason that may be causing this question is that whenever I find a documentary, an article on a news event/person etc I usually come to this forum to seek out other assessments/thoughts/reactions etc to them. For example, if it wasn't for this forum, I would have never known the 'other' side to Alex Jones that has been talked about extensively on this forum. But, I always come away thinking, how does anyone really know if anything is 100% fact, whether it be here or anywhere else?

I hope someone can point me in the right direction

Thanks
 
Dingo said:
I hope someone can point me in the right direction

Thanks

Hey Dingo,

Sorry if I came off a little harsh in my reply to your post. My intention was just to point out the subjectivity of your statement and bring some new thoughts to the discussion. I'm glad you're thinking about the concept of Objectivity because it's one that's taken me awhile to grasp too (still grasping at actually!). I just want to point out a couple items that may help you understand this concept.

http://www.cassiopedia.org/glossary/Objectivity

There is a lot to this, but I will point out a few things here:

Gurdjieff stresses the attaining of objective reason and objective conscience throughout Beelzebub's Tales. We could say that objective emotion is possible, then in the sense of the emotional center conveying accurate information on the emotional state of the environment. Objective conscience is the simultaneous seeing of one's own emotional state and its response to the broader self's state and actions. In Gurdjieff's words, some impulses are proper to man having 'attained objective reason and conscience.' These are of a generally ethical character such as good will and consideration towards others, striving for self-perfection, striving for knowledge, striving to pay for one's arising and so forth.

QFS links the quest for objectivity to the duality between service to others and service to self. Pronounced subjectivity or wishful thinking are seen as hallmarks of STS. If thoughts or a general internal disposition of observers affects reality, then the QFS proposes that this happen as follows: Observation which corresponds to reality creates order in the observer/observed system. Observation which disagrees with reality reduces the amount of order and adds to the entropy of the observer/observed system. Order and entropy are opposites. Entropy corresponds to loss of information and of consciousness, order corresponds to creation. By attempting to force their own conception of reality on the universe, magicians and wishful thinkers in fact add to chaos and dissolution. Any creation compatible with the service to others polarity must start with recognition of what is and needs to take action based on this, not based on a partial reading. The type of action may be freely chosen, depending on which polarity the actor decides to be aligned with.

So my interpretation here is that Objectivity is aligned with conscience or as Gurdjeif puts it, a "considering towards others", or STO as it discussed here. Subjectivity often comes in the form of wishful thinking or as they put it a "hallmark" of STS.

I also think it might be useful to go over the cassiopedia section on Truth too. The concept of different levels of Truth may help you answer your question about "facts" and "truth".

http://www.cassiopedia.org/glossary/Truth

To know absolute truth in this reality would be impossible. We can discuss things with certain probabilities though. OSIT.
 
Dingo said:
I think I have become too entangled in all the information gathering of late and have become quite confused again. I made a post in the music section of this forum here: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=2633.msg149047#msg149047 and the response I got triggered a question I have found myself asking more and more of late.

It sounds like you might have had a 'reaction' to the response in question. It might be worthwhile, if you feel motivated to do so, to figure out why you had this reaction. What was triggered internally (since reactions are almost always programs running)?

dingo said:
My question is simply, what facts do we base objectivity on?

Objectivity isn't 'based on' anything - it simply is. It is objectively real, meaning it is truth in its purest form. The variable in the equation of perceiving objectivity is not objectivity itself, it is the observer. For this reason, we don't 'base objectivity on' anything - we can only attempt to approach an understanding of objective truth. With our many 'i's and various and seemingly endless lenses of subjectivity, through which we perceive everything, it is quite the task.


dingo said:
Are there any facts at all in our existence.

Absolutely - there IS objective truth, an objective reality.


dingo said:
Can we say with any 100% accuracy that any fact that has ever been declared a fact is in fact 100% 'a fact'.

Certainly.

dingo said:
Is to declare something 'a fact' to declare it is indisputable 100% truth?

It probably depends on who 'declares' it. If it is an objective fact, then it would be truth. Part of the point of 'waking up' is to be able to perceive objectively - without the thick veil of sleep and illusion that defines human existence.

dingo said:
This question has haunted me recently, and I am not sure why. In some instances on this forum, I have read that it is up to us to do our own research, to gather information ourselves which I have been doing, but I have become overloaded I think . Is it that I have to go back to a certain point and then continue on, you know similar to doing a system restore on a computer?

The reason we encourage doing one's own research is that it rewires the brain - if one is handed facts on a platter, one does not learn. So, diving in, figuring out what is true and what is not, is really, really valuable. It trains your brain to develop discernment and, with discernment, one can begin to perceive objective truth - begin to See. If you have become overwhelmed, there is no problem with backing up a bit - and networking! Networking about your perceptions and your understanding helps build discernment because no one can learn to See on his/her own.

dingo said:
Another reason that may be causing this question is that whenever I find a documentary, an article on a news event/person etc I usually come to this forum to seek out other assessments/thoughts/reactions etc to them. For example, if it wasn't for this forum, I would have never known the 'other' side to Alex Jones that has been talked about extensively on this forum. But, I always come away thinking, how does anyone really know if anything is 100% fact, whether it be here or anywhere else?

It's a good question, especially in such situations, since the truth is often deliberately muddied in order to make discernment more difficult. There comes a time, to my understanding, as one is developing their discernment and networking and beginning to see more clearly, that it becomes easier to tell, very quickly, what is and what is not true - especially as it applies to sources of information.

You really do begin to develop a 'nose' for it. As far as disinformation sources are concerned, remember that there is always truth 'mixed in' and that that truth is used to lead the reader astray, instead of being used to lead the reader further along the path of understanding the true larger picture.
 
RyanX said:
Hey Dingo,

Sorry if I came off a little harsh in my reply to your post.

Not at all, I didn't see the reply as harsh, but as anart pointed out, there was a reaction and I have had time to try and determine why.

A friend and I were emailing and this was his thoughts on Gurdjieff
His teachings are very interesting, but strike me as somewhat demanding and even a little harsh in their assessment of the average person, and what they must do in order to ‘attain’ spiritual development.

I remember when I read that my reaction in my mind was to assume he was wrong, because Gurdjieff is right, but then I immediately thought, why is Gurdjieff right, based on what facts? Am I basing this on the fact that members of this forum see him as being right, and if so, why? I then started to think that everyone is basing their beliefs on facts etc that in all honesty, can not be proven to be 100% correct by anyone, as in the end, it is all words. Everything beyond an actual 'experience' is based on words describing that experience, and everyone will have different ways of experiencing something. I certainly am not able to determine if anything I experience is truth or not, but then again, that is probably just my fault.

anart said:
Objectivity isn't 'based on' anything - it simply is.
Here is another example...as soon as I read this, my first thought was, why is this statement true?

When I found the 'music' board of this forum I quickly realized that I find it impossible to make any posts anywhere on this forum, that is 'not a question' because I have no information that I think is based on truth, but....

Once I read the link to truth you gave me, it did make a lot of sense and clear things up a little for me but not completely. Within this 3D realm, is truth only truth to a point. Is it fair to say that the speed of light to mankind is what a fence is to a chicken?

anart said:
It's a good question, especially in such situations, since the truth is often deliberately muddied in order to make discernment more difficult. There comes a time, to my understanding, as one is developing their discernment and networking and beginning to see more clearly, that it becomes easier to tell, very quickly, what is and what is not true - especially as it applies to sources of information.

You really do begin to develop a 'nose' for it. As far as disinformation sources are concerned, remember that there is always truth 'mixed in' and that that truth is used to lead the reader astray, instead of being used to lead the reader further along the path of understanding the true larger picture.

Then this.....reading this did make me 'feel' better fwiw

Thanks for the input guys
 
Dingo said:
My question is simply, what facts do we base objectivity on?

I agree with anart's answer.

Dingo said:
Are there any facts at all in our existence. Can we say with any 100% accuracy that any fact that has ever been declared a fact is in fact 100% 'a fact'. Is to declare something 'a fact' to declare it is indisputable 100% truth?
...
But, I always come away thinking, how does anyone really know if anything is 100% fact, whether it be here or anywhere else?
I hope someone can point me in the right direction

I understand the struggle that your questions represent, Dingo. When I think about 'facts', I recall as just one example, that it used to be a 'fact' that the sun revolved around the earth and that was based on observed phenomenon which no one could argue with...yet it was wrong!

When people were saying that it was a fact that the sun revolved around the earth, the point of view was a position on earth and a consideration that this standpoint was motionless (earth was the 'point' around which the other data was organized and made sense of). The elements of the relationship are obvious enough and the purposes being served were for the evolution of scientific understanding and a parallel development of religious philosophy.

So, I tend to think that a search for deeper understanding of 'fact' would be served well by also looking at the point of view involved, the relationship of the 'thing being considered' to other data in the relevant context and the purpose that is being served by the expression.

"Contextually accurate" is probably the most useful way to go, osit.

Does any of that make sense?


Dingo said:
anart said:
Objectivity isn't 'based on' anything - it simply is.
Here is another example...as soon as I read this, my first thought was, why is this statement true?

My answer to that is that anart's statement is contextually accurate because it straightens out a question that was the wrong way around, that's all. :)
 
I think when we typically think of facts, we approach it from a predominantly intellectual perspective. When something is declared as a "fact", we use our intellectual faculties to prove or disprove it using available data surrounding the declared fact and also looking more widely at the context and relations to other things as Bud pointed out. To approach Truth or objectivity - which Anart so aptly defined as "something that simply is", we need to develop our emotional center as well along with the intellectual center - osit.
[quote author=Mouravieff in Gnosis Book 1 Pg33]
The emotional center in the newborn is characterized by its purity. As long as the child has not learned how to lie, he retains the marvellous faculty - proper to this center - of spontaneously discerning the true from the false over a very wide range of experience. With time,education and all that is instilled in the child, this center is deranged and this faculty lost , to be found again only much later as a result of esoteric work, special exercises and sustained efforts.
[/quote]
In Work terms this perhaps means that once the connection with the higher emotional center is firmly established by equilibrating the 3 lower centers, then a person could spontaneously discern the truth. The higher emotional and intellectual centers are supposed to be fully operational in souled human beings though their messages cannot be discerned until the lower 3 centers are working properly. Often times, the flashes of insight attributed to inspiration or intuition that happens to people may be this higher emotional center seeping through. Many scientific discoveries are attributed to such flashes of insights where the scientist just knew the "answer" and had to work through the intellectual center for a period of time in order to logically "prove" what was intuitively perceived. This again leads credence to the statement that the speed at which the emotional center works is much higher than the intellectual center.
So while we get confused at all the lies that are being propagated sometimes through ignorance and sometimes through deliberate design, and our intellectual center struggles to make sense of what is true and what is not, the definitive way out of this situation is with the proper development of the emotional center - osit.
 
Regarding Gurdjieff, my own reaction to him in the beginning was decidedly negative. As I have recounted elsewhere, following an extraordinary series of events, I began to read ISOTM:

As a result of the injuries I had received during the delivery, I was bedridden for many months. There I was, living in the woods, isolated from family and friends; I had four little children to care for and I couldn't even walk. My oldest child was only six, and the responsibility for the care of her brother and sister, as well as her mother and the new baby, fell on her. She was smart, talented, and a real trooper, but it was clearly not a healthy situation.

On top of this soul deep grief {my grandmother had recently died} I was still unable to resolve, I was frustrated and irritable at not being able to do anything about my physical condition. Not only had I lost nearly everything I loved, I had now lost my health.

Since I could no longer maintain my very active participation in life in a physical way, I was forced, by the universe, as it were, to find other outlets for my energy. I decided this would be the perfect time to master the art of meditation. Prompted by the little "signs" that appeared during this birth, I felt compelled to investigate this question of Eternal Life. I decided the only way I could accomplish this objective was to be able to truly open my heart to God, so he could infuse me with this "something" that obviously I so desperately lacked. Thus, the idea grew in me that I must still my own voice, both internal and external, so that I could hear daily the voice that betokens God's presence within.

I searched the Bible for clues. Having taught meditation, self-hypnosis, and other relaxation techniques, I knew all of these were ways many people claim to make contact with their "higher self" or what-not. But, being on the "faith trip," whatever I did had to be within the "guidelines" I had accepted for my life. I found a reference in Psalms: "Let the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart be acceptable unto thee, Oh Lord."

Well, that clinched it for me! There it was, right in the Bible! I began to meditate using that very phrase as my mantra, since that seemed to be the acceptable way to do it by the rules. And it was at this point that things began to really "happen".

Several years earlier I had found a book on a "bargain table" in a book store entitled "In Search of the Miraculous" by P.D. Ouspensky. The blurb on the cover said: "The noted author of Tertium Organum combines the logic of a mathematician with the vision of a mystic in his quest for solutions to the problems of Man and the Universe." Since it was a bargain and promised to reveal secrets about our world, naturally, I bought it immediately. When I got home with it and tried to read it, it proved to be rather dry, and I gave it up. It had lain on the shelf ever after.

I had continued, to a great extent, my reading habits through the past few years, though there had been considerable restriction on the time I was allowed to give to it. Larry resented the fact that I liked to read before going to sleep, and there were many nights when I sat up alone, shivering in the cold, to read what I considered to be my necessary daily allowance of intellectual input.

But now that I was bedridden, the door was wide open to reading as much as I liked. In that sense, it was a blessing. So, I remembered this book that I had put aside; it seemed that a book that promised insight to the issues I was struggling with - even a very dry book - didn’t seem like such a bad idea when I could do nothing else. I asked for it, and soon it was located and brought to me.

I realized pretty quickly that this book would go to the top of the list of "forbidden works" according to the elders of our church, but I didn't care. After my experiences with the church over the past few years, the teachings were rapidly declining as the standard by which reality ought to be measured. I was still "on guard" against "evil ideas," but I was sure that I could filter out anything too "dangerous" in a work that promised insight on the issues for which I was seeking answers.

Everything was fine for about 17 pages, and I was getting "into" the style of writing and found it to be deeply interesting and then - well - then this mysterious "G" (about whom I knew nothing), made a remark that completely knocked the wind out of my still mostly Fundamentalist sails. In response to Ouspensky's speculation that, in the industrial age, humans were becoming more "mechanized" and had stopped thinking, Gurdjieff said:

"There is another kind of mechanization which is much more dangerous: being a machine oneself. Have you ever thought about the fact that all people themselves are machines? ...Look, all those people you see are simply machines - nothing more. ...You think there is something that chooses its own path, something that can stand against mechanization; you think that not everything is equally mechanical."

At this point, Ouspensky raised the very argument that was forming in my own mind:

"Why of course not! ...Art, poetry, thought, are phenomena of quite a different order."

Gurdjieff replied: "Of exactly the same order. These activities are just as mechanical as everything else. Men are machines and nothing but mechanical actions can be expected of machines."

I was so enraged that I snapped the book shut and threw it against the wall!

How dare he say such a terrible thing about human beings! How dare he deny the reality of the spirit, the sublimity of music and mysticism and the salvation of Christ! I'm surprised that steam didn't issue from my head. I was hot with outrage!

But, it had been said. The seed of the thought had been planted in my mind. After awhile, my curiosity about such a concept came to the fore. I began to mull over the issue in an attempt to find ways to disprove it.

I mused over my own life, all my interactions with other people, and gradually, I began to realize that there was, indeed, something mysteriously "mechanical" about the interactions between human beings. I thought about the many people I had worked with therapeutically using hypnosis, and how "mechanical" the therapy was, and how the roots of most of their problems were rather like "mechanical" and conditioned reactions to their perceptions and observations. Generally, it seemed, these perceptions were erroneous, and it was the error of this "mechanical" thinking that created the problems in the first place.

But, over and over again, their problems and the ways they formed and operated, as well as the therapeutic solutions themselves, were, essentially, mechanical. It was like a formula. With just a few "hints" from the person, I could almost immediately see the whole dynamic of their past and the formation of their problem, as well as the "mechanical" way to solve it. I applied the technique, and just like changing the wires and spark plugs in a car, it made them start "firing on all cylinders" again.

Okay, so the guy has a point. But clearly, those people who were "saved" were saved from being mechanical, right? I wanted to find out if he had anything to say about that! I called one of the children to retrieve the book for me and I continued to read. The question was asked: "Can it be said that man possesses immortality?"

Gurdjieff's reply was fascinating:

"Immortality is one of the qualities we ascribe to people without having a sufficient understanding of their meaning. Other qualities of this kind are 'individuality,' in the sense of an inner unity, a 'permanent and unchangeable I,' 'consciousness,' and 'will.' All these qualities can belong to man, but this certainly does not mean that they do belong to him or belong to each and every one.

"In order to understand what man is at the present time, that is, at the present level of development, it is necessary to imagine to a certain extent what he can be, that is, what he can attain. Only by understanding the correct sequence of development possible will people cease to ascribe to themselves what, at present, they do not possess, and what, perhaps, they can only acquire after great effort and great labor.

"According to an ancient teaching, traces of which may be found in many systems, old and new, a man who has attained the full development possible for man, a man in the full sense of the word, consists of four bodies. These four bodies are composed of substances which gradually become finer and finer, mutually interpenetrate one another, and form four independent organisms, standing in a definite relationship to one another but capable of independent action."

Gurdjieff's idea was that it was possible for these four bodies to exist because the physical human body has such a complex organization that, under certain favorable conditions, a new and independent organism actually can develop and grow within it. This new system of organs of perception can afford a more convenient and responsive instrument for the activity of an awakened consciousness.

"The consciousness manifested in this new body is capable of governing it, and it has full power and full control over the physical body. In this second body, under certain conditions, a third body can grow, again having characteristics of its own. The consciousness manifested in this third body has full power and control over the first two bodies; and the third body possesses the possibility of acquiring knowledge inaccessible either to the first or to the second body. In the third body, under certain conditions, a fourth can grow, which differs as much from the third as the third differs from the second, and the second from the first. The consciousness manifested in the fourth body has full control over the first three bodies and itself.

"These four bodies are defined in different teachings in various ways. The first is the physical body, in Christian terminology the 'carnal' body; the second, in Christian terminology, is the 'natural' body; the third is the 'spiritual' body; and the fourth, in the terminology of esoteric Christianity, is the 'divine body. In theosophical terminology the first is the 'physical' body, the second is the 'astral,' the third is the 'mental,' and the fourth the 'causal.'

"In the terminology of certain Eastern teachings the first body is the 'carriage,' (the body), the second is the 'horse' (feelings, desires), the third the 'driver' (mind), and the fourth the 'master (I, consciousness, will).

"Such comparisons and parallels may be found in most systems and teachings which recognize something more in man than the physical body. But almost all these teachings, while repeating in a more or less familiar form the definitions and divisions of the ancient teaching, have forgotten or omitted its most important feature, which is: that man is not born with the finer bodies. They can only be artificially cultivated in him, provided favorable conditions both internal and external are present.

"The 'astral body' is not an indispensable implement for man. It is a great luxury which only a few can afford. A man can live quite well without an 'astral body.' His physical body possesses all the functions necessary for life. A man without 'astral body' may even produce the impression of being a very intellectual or even spiritual man, and may deceive not only others but also himself.

"When the third body has been formed and has acquired all the properties, powers, and knowledge possible for it, there remains the problem of fixing this knowledge and these powers. Because, having been imparted to it by influences of a certain kind, they may be taken away by these same influences or by others. By means of a special kind of work for all three bodies the acquired properties may be made the permanent and inalienable possession of the third body.

"The process of fixing these acquired properties corresponds to the process of the formation of the fourth body.

"And only the man who possesses four fully developed bodies can be called a 'man' in the full sense of the word. This man possesses many properties which ordinary man does not possess. One of these properties is immortality. All religions and all ancient teachings contain the idea that, by acquiring the fourth body, man acquires immortality; and they all contain indications of the ways to acquire the fourth body, that is, immortality."

The book went flying again!

I was outraged. But this time, my indignation lasted only a very short time. Again, in thinking over the many clues about human beings I had been collecting all my life, including those derived from observing myself, I saw something very deeply true being said here. As much as I might not like it, I could not deny the fact it was certainly a hypothesis supported by observation.

Hints of these matters did occur in the Bible, though they were among the most obscure references. Preachers and theologians generally tended to leave them strictly alone. At least 17 times in the New Testament, it's noted that Jesus taught his disciples in "secret". The teachings of Jesus in the Bible itself consists only of his purported public discourses. There was a lot missing, and Gurdjieff spoke as one with authority. What's more, it rang of truth.

The book was retrieved again. I was curious to see what further remarks might be made about Christianity. Ouspensky asked the same question I would have asked myself:

"For a man of Western culture, it is of course difficult to believe and to accept the idea that an ignorant fakir, a naïve monk, or a yogi who has retired from life may be on the way to evolution while an educated European, armed with 'exact knowledge' and all the latest methods of investigation, has no chance whatever and is moving in a circle from which there is no escape." Gurdjieff answered:

"Yes, that is because people believe in progress and culture. There is no progress whatever. Everything is just the same as it was thousands, and tens of thousands, of years ago. The outward form changes. The essence does not change. Man remains just the same. 'Civilized' and 'cultured' people live with exactly the same interests as the most ignorant savages. Modern civilization is based on violence and slavery and fine words.

"...What do you expect? People are machines. Machines have to be blind and unconscious, they cannot be otherwise, and all their actions have to correspond to their nature. Everything happens. No one does anything. 'Progress' and 'civilization,' in the real meaning of these words, can appear only as the result of conscious efforts. They cannot appear as the result of unconscious mechanical actions. And what conscious effort can there be in machines? And if one machine is unconscious, then a hundred machines are unconscious, and so are a thousand machines, or a hundred thousand, or a million. And the unconscious activity of a million machines must necessarily result in destruction and extermination. It is precisely in unconscious involuntary manifestations that all evil lies. You do not yet understand and cannot imagine all the results of this evil. But the time will come when you will understand."

And Gurdjieff was right. He was speaking at the beginning of the First World War, in the opening rounds of a century of unprecedented warfare.

My copy of "In Search of the Miraculous" flew across the room at least a dozen more times. I fumed and raged inside each time I was confronted with an idea that, upon reflection and comparison to my observations and experiences, seemed a far better explanation of the dynamics of human existence than anything I had ever read in my life.

As for this "unconscious evil" that Gurdjieff mentioned, he explained in the Tale of the Evil Magician:

"A very rich magician had a great many sheep. But at the same time this magician was very mean. He did not want to hire shepherds, nor did he want to erect a fence about the pasture where his sheep were grazing. The sheep consequently often wandered into the forest, fell into ravines, and so on, and above all they ran away, for they knew that the magician wanted their flesh and skins and this they did not like.

"At last the magician found a remedy. He hypnotized his sheep and suggested to them first of all that they were immortal and that no harm was being done to them when they were skinned. On the contrary, it would be very good for them and even pleasant. Secondly he suggested that the magician was a good master who loved his flock so much that he was ready to do anything in the world for them. In the third place he suggested to them that if anything at all were going to happen to them it was not going to happen just then, at any rate not that day, and therefore they had no need to think about it. Further, the magician suggested to his sheep that they were not sheep at all; to some of them he suggested that they were lions, to others that they were eagles, to others that they were men, and to others that they were magicians.

"And after this all his cares and worries about the sheep came to an end. They never ran away again but quietly awaited the time when the magician would require their flesh and skins.

Ouspensky wrote that theoretically, a man could awaken. But in practice this is almost impossible. As soon as a man awakens for a moment and opens his eyes, all the forces that caused him to fall asleep in the first place begin to act on him with tenfold energy. He immediately falls asleep again, very often dreaming that he is awake.

When I read this I immediately thought of the pastor who conducted that farcical effort to get me to speak in tongues, and the so-called "exorcism," the same pastor who'd been taken in by my mother's manipulations. Could it be possible that he was one of those described in Gurdjieff's tale as being hypnotized into believing that he was a magician? How many other people had I met who claimed to "know" things, but the evidence of their lives, their actions, did not support their claims?

I also thought about my study of the history of man in my search for the justification of God, and how I had come to see it as the biography of Satan. I was beginning to realize that something was very wrong with the picture of the world that we are taught from the moment we are born, and that is further implemented in our culture, our society and most especially our religions.

I thought back over my life and realized that all the events that had gradually maneuvered me into my present position could most definitely be perceived as the "forces that act to keep a person asleep". It was a certainty that some tremendous pressure had been applied to stop me from observing, from analyzing, and most of all from thinking and learning.

The question was: who or what was the true nature of the "Evil Magician?"

Then, of course, along came the Cs and my own initiation. As I've written elsewhere, it is really quite interesting that, for me, I had to get in touch with "myself in the future" in order to learn how to really SEE. Whenever I thought I had the answer, they would say "close" or "try this" or that or give another hint to let me know there was more to the matter than met the eye. And time and again I had to give up what I thought were "facts" or what I believed was true for a deeper and more accurate picture of reality.
 
Speaking in general of what is "objective reality," psychologist, John Schumaker, writes about it in a way that appears to me to come close - though he doesn't go all the way - to what both Gurdjieff and the Cs mean about objective reality, though what Schumaker then proposes - controlled delusion - as the means to mental health - is quite out of line with what we advocate.:


What is Reality?


In their much-heralded book "The Social Construction of Reality", Peter Berger and Thomas Luckmann maintain that human reality is an artifact of the culture in which individuals find themselves. In stating their case, they describe the ways in which language, institutions, and socialization practices function to construct, or "legitimize," the structure and content of reality. While Berger and Luckmann draw a distinction between objective and subjective reality, they claim that both these realities are constructed at the level of culture. They are quite unequivocal in asserting that "society exists as both objective and subjective reality." Similarly, David Heise discusses reality within a social constructionist framework, while stating that truth cannot be used as a criterion by which to define reality. He argues this position on the basis that "truth" varies across different social groups, and that what is "true" in one society may be "false" in another.

Certainly, one cannot deny that there is some substance to such a view. The reality of a Tibetan monk is certainly different from that of an Oklahoma used car dealer, which is again different from the reality of a Kung bushperson living in Botswana's Kalahari desert. Culture is almost certain to be an influential agency in the shaping of subjective reality; indeed, it even seems reasonable to speak of objective reality in terms of culture. Throughout human history cultures have served as conveyors of "knowledge" or "facts" that became the building blocks of people's impressions of objective reality. Growing up in my own culture and subculture, I acquired among many other things the "knowledge" that poison ivy is noxious, that the earth is round, and that Lutherans can never go to heaven. Another person, in another culture or at a different point in history, might have assimilated the cultural "knowledge" that ringed snakes are deadly, that the earth is flat, and that the gods can only be appeased by sacrificing virgins.

Since some cultural "knowledge" is true and some false, it is highly misleading to speak of objective reality in terms of the information that derives from cultural sources. It is true that culture tends to homogenize people's conceptions of reality. But objective reality implies a reality that has a consistency beyond the purely relativistic one espoused by some cultural relativists. In their view, objective and subjective reality are basically the same thing, since no account is taken of reality as it exists in a truly objective way. Their entire formulation is thus limited to the human perception of reality.

David Heise acknowledges that social constructionist formulations of reality are sometimes unremittingly relativistic to the point of being nihilistic. He also admits that, even within the nihilistically inclined field of sociology, many people find such a stance to be extreme. And there is good reason for dissension, since one must do more than depict reality as an ever elusive figment of cultural imagination. The earth, for example, has a certain shape at any one point in time. That shape remains what it is, despite the culturally transmitted shape entertained by individuals. I suppose that some cultural relativists would disagree, saying that the earth is flat if that is a feature of an individual's socially constructed reality. Likewise, they would say that the earth is also round if that is an element of the reality of another person from a different cultural setting. But unless one abandons oneself completely to nihilism, simple logic should tell one that the earth cannot be both round and flat.

In his book "The New Skepticism", Paul Kurtz refers to a reality that remains constant despite the endless number of ways that we interact with the world via our activities, and the different ways that reality can be interpreted:

...There is a real world out there, but we interact, modify, or interpret it in different ways in terms of our contexts or fields of behavior. But the world does not evaporate into, nor is it totally assimilated by, a person's action. Reality is not equivalent to activity; activity presupposes a real world independent of oneself. It is that which exists and causally interacts with other things, separate and distinct from an intersubjective community of observers. And it is that which endures and functions in some sense independent of my activities... The real is that which exists or would exist if I were not around, but I could say little about it if I did not observe, study, probe, manipulate, or use it.

In my opinion, it is inappropriate to use the term “objective" reality as Berger and Luckmann used it earlier. According to truly objective reality, the earth is round in shape. The objective reality of which Berger and Luckmann spoke should be again understood as the culturally influenced perception or interpretation of objective reality. It is hardly more stable that the subjective reality to which they also made reference. As Kurtz also realizes, there is an important difference between knowledge and impressions, and between knowledge and belief. It is not sufficient to equate belief with knowledge. Instead, in Kurtz's view, there are objective "anchors" in the real world that exist independently of beliefs, imaginations, dreams, fantasizes, and so forth. It is even possible to judge the veracity of these mental constructions in terms of their alignment or misalignment with the objective "anchors" to which Kurtz refers.

In contrast with some prevailing schools of thought in sociology and anthropology, the fields of psychology and psychiatry have long histories of recognizing a stable reality that can be used as a touchstone by which to assess the personal reality of individuals. There would be no hesitation in saying that someone deviated from “real” reality if, for instance, that person claimed that he/she was Napoleon. Conversely, I know of no sane mental health professional who would take the position that such a person was Napoleon because this particular belief was an aspect of the personal reality of that person.

The phrases “real reality” and “unreal reality” are redundant and conceptually perplexing. The situation is little better for the words “objective” and “subjective” as they relate to reality, since they have attracted so many contradictory meanings. For my purposes, I would like to select, not the usual two, but rather three different terms in order to describe human reality. Although the addition of an extra category adds a certain amount of complexity, it does serve to clarify the confusion that has arisen regarding socially constructed reality, while permitting us to speak more confidently about individual constructions of reality. Brief mention will now be given to each of the three ways in which the concept of reality must be understood.

Primary Reality

Primary reality is reality as it would present itself if only that information or data available to the person were used as the building blocks of reality. This does not, however, mean that primary reality would necessarily be the result of rational modes of mental activity, such as critical and analytical thinking, reasoning, and so forth. Nor does it refer to "ultimate" reality in the sense that everything is known about an event or object. Instead, primary reality is uncorrupted and unbiased because the creature does not modify, translate, or otherwise distort incoming information. This category of reality is reserved for nonhuman animals, due to the human being's natural tendency to rely on nonrational, as well as rational, modes of cognition in the formation of its unique blended reality.

Virtually all nonhuman animals operate within primary reality. Consider the squirrel. With no added bias from higher-order distortive mechanisms, the reality of a squirrel is a comparatively stable primary one wherein things are as they are. An acorn always remains something to eat or to stick into the hole of a tree. In the absence of the cerebral apparatus to misinterpret an acorn, squirrels never have acorn gods, nor do they ever develop acorn phobias. When another squirrel dies, decomposes, and disappears, the remaining squirrels have no ability to alter the empirical data about the squirrel's death. When the dead squirrel is gone, it is gone. The primary reality of a squirrel does not permit a squirrel heaven or a happy acorn ground in an afterlife. Quite simply, there are no data to indicate, either to a squirrel or to ourselves, that there exists an afterlife. Because of its brain design, the squirrel is prevented from reinterpreting empirical data, which gives it exclusive access to primary reality.

On the other hand, human beings have only one cerebral foot on the ground. They possess a talent that automatically banishes them from primary reality, at the same time offering endless other possibilities over the squirrel and all other nonhuman creatures. Berger and Luckmann gave the "dog-world" and the "horse-world" as examples of comparatively stable realities that differ from our own, proposing that the difference can be understood by degree of instinctual determination. That is, nonhuman animals "live in closed worlds whose structures are predetermined by the biological equipment of the several animal species."6 This, according to Berger and Luckmann, contrasts with the "man-world," which has "no species-specific environment, no environment firmly structured by [its] own instinctual organization."7

But a point of clarification is essential here. While I agree that nonhuman animals have a generally stable reality by comparison with human reality, Berger and Luckmann ignore an important fact in arriving at their conclusion. It is that a large proportion of non¬human animal behavior is acquired through social learning, in much the same way that it is done for human beings. Even the humble squirrel must learn that it is to eat acorns, and that a certain squeal from its mother means to scamper up the tree to safety. Furthermore, the Berger and Luckmann model discounts the ways in which some dimensions of human behavior are locked into biologically determined patterns. These may not be as obvious as those appearing in other species, but they do exist.

We might even go to the heart of the matter about reality and ask why it is that human beings, in all cultures, construct for themselves a reality that is not strictly empirical in nature. Why, all throughout our history, have we harbored irrational and often wildly false notions about the empirical world and our place in it? It is said that Socrates frequently began his speeches by imploring his listeners not to be angry with him if he tells them the truth. One gets the sense that Socrates definitely knew that falsehoods and errors held a central place in the human mind.

From the perspective of human beliefs, Paul Kurtz writes about our astonishing capacity to tolerate beliefs that mock our own awesome intellectual capabilities:

The surprising fact about human beings is that a belief does not have to be true in order to be believed by them. Indeed, most of the belief systems that generations of humans have heralded, lived by, and died for are in fact patently false. Yet they were held with deep conviction and fervor. . . . The fads and fallacies, delusions and fantasies that people have believed in are so numerous in human history that they constitute, as it were, the very fabric of our cultural existence. The list of erroneous belief systems is endless. . . . Human culture is comprised of the castles in the sand that we have constructed. . . . These are the products of our fertile imaginations and especially our yearnings for other worlds. The web of human civilization contains both the ingenious ways that humans have developed for understanding and dealing with the world with clarity and precision and the extraordinary palliatives and smoke screens that they have laid down for themselves.8

The universality of the distortion of primary reality requires us to consider that this phenomenon is not simply the result of society acting upon an otherwise structureless human being. Instead, as Kurtz argues, "there are powerful drives in the human species that often lead human beings to subvert their senses and reason and to accept popular delusions. These tendencies are rather general, and they may be invariant in all cultures."9

Yet human beings are also capable of arriving at what Kurtz terms reliable knowledge. It is well within our abilities to process incoming information in order that our mental constructions correspond to primary reality. The fact that we so often miss the mark in this regard is owing to our tandem ability to regulate reality to suit our ends. This contradiction will sort itself out as we explore the peculiar workings of dissociation and divided methods of consciousness and unconsciousness. We will come to see that, as a consequence of our unique brain design, there is a highly fluid quality to human reality. This requires that any social constructionist theory of human behavior must take into account the physiological processes that are responsible for the consistent patterns that exist alongside the differences in behavior.

Personal Reality

Personal reality refers to the reality of the individual organism. For the nonhuman realm of the animal world, the reality of the individual animal overlaps exactly with primary reality. They are one and the same. Again this is because nonhuman animals do not have the sophisticated brain faculties required to translate and then retranslate incoming empirical information in such a way that reality can become virtually anything at the level of the individual.

To the human being, acorns can be little bombs planted by aliens from outer space (an aspect of the reality of a paranoid person). Or they can be the source of powerful magic, capable of ensuring the immortality of a dead person if the corpse is dusted with burnt acorn powder prior to burial (an aspect of the reality of certain former religious beliefs). Or an acorn can be merely an acorn. Many options are open to members of our species, and we naturally try to avail ourselves of them for purposes of social, psychological, and physical survival.

Culture usually specifies the alternatives to a strictly empirically based reality. But, in our species, the reality of the person never overlaps completely with reality as it would be constructed with empirical or factual data only. This is true in "normal" as well as "abnormal" individuals. Also not exempt are the existential pathfinders who consider themselves to be at the front lines of the truth. Their personal reality is also skewed and biased, albeit with superficial differences in the appearance of that bias. Human reality is destined to contain large amounts of error. In saying this, I am using primary reality as the criterion by which to gauge the world as it really is.

It must be conceded, however, that primary reality could also be false as it reveals itself to us. Take the acorn once more. It may be that acorns are little bombs, or that their burnt dust is the bestower of everlasting life. But in using empirical data to define real reality, one is proceeding on the basis of available data and probabilities and/or improbabilities. Therefore, it is highly improbable, in light of empirical data, that an acorn is an alien's bomb or that burnt acorn dust defeats the problem of mortality.

Religion cannot be given special consideration if we are to understand the principles of reality regulation. So, similarly, it must be said that, in all likelihood, religious beliefs are examples of adaptive cognitive errors. They are probably false because they are constructed in defiance and ignorance (in the sense of "ignore") of available empirical data. Thus they are deviations from primary reality.

We know that this is largely the case, since the thousands of religions in the world contain beliefs that directly contradict one another, thereby canceling out their credibility. For example, it cannot both be true that a bird-god gave birth to this planet four million years ago in the form of an egg, and also that the planet was born six thousand years ago when, over the course of six days, a different god created the earth one step at a time. Even so, there is no way of knowing that all religious beliefs are inaccurate, since their premises are not circumscribed by empirical evidence. Yet, with the aid of simple logic, we can safely say that most religious beliefs are probably false. They are certainly useful, however, as will be seen.

It is interesting to speculate about the birth of personal reality. That is, when did human beings develop the cerebral skills required in order to construct a reality that was deviant from primary reality? In my earlier book Wings of Illusion, I proposed that this occurred when the human brain reached a critical developmental threshold wherein we became conscious to a potentially debilitating degree.10 It was then that a tandem brain capacity was needed to absorb, so to speak, the collision between amplified consciousness and many emotionally terrifying and confusing facets of this-world existence. New irreconcilable conflicts needed resolution, and new unanswerable questions demanded pacifying answers. The future viability of nature's experiment with the big brain depended on an evolutionary move that would preserve the many advantages of elevated consciousness, while simultaneously reducing the emotional impact of that same adaptation.
This evolutionary strategy came in the form of the capacity of the brain to dissociate itself from its own data. More specifically, the human brain gained the ability to (a) selectively perceive its environment, (b) selectively process information, (c) selectively store memories, (d) selectively disengage from already stored memories, and (e) selectively replace dissociated data with more "user-friendly" data.

Ultimately, this empowered human beings, like no animal before us, to regulate their own reality. One might compare this capacity to an automatic thermostat that regulates the temperature of a room, except that our ability to regulate is infinitely more sophisticated. The following chapter will attempt to isolate the actual brain-level processes involved in this astonishing evolutionary feat, in order to show that it is the cognitive basis for religion, hypnosis, and most forms of mental disturbance.

In short, personal reality defines itself by its deviation from primary reality, even though personal reality partially overlaps with primary reality. For most people, then, personal reality amounts to empirical reality plus or minus whatever empirically unjustified modifications or biases are made to empirical reality.

One can only speculate about the degree of bias that features in personal reality. Ernest Rossi, an Ericksonian hypnotherapist, estimated that at least 80 percent of the information contained in the human mind is false.11 What makes this estimate more remarkable is that Rossi was referring to the vast quantity of error that is entertained, not as a result of formal hypnosis, but during the normal waking state. And here we are not talking about an animal with insufficient brain power to get things right. Instead, we are dealing with the creature with the most highly developed cerebral cortex. Yet, despite our cerebral talents, it seems that the mental world of the human being is often at odds with the true nature of things. Not only that, we will fight to preserve what is false. We do this while also, paradoxically, apprehending the world with astonishing precision. As a result, any useful theory about human behavior must explain the fundamental contradiction which is our capacity simultaneously to construe and misconstrue the world about us.

Whatever the actual extent of our cognitive error, it should be remembered that the generation of this error is the consequence of intricate cerebral processes that safeguard the integrity of the entire nervous system. Also, attempts to estimate the proportion of error in personal reality ignore the fact of individual differences. We should expect a substantial amount of variation regarding the distortive component of personal reality. These are reflective of situational, constitutional, and sociocultural factors that weigh differentially upon people. The actual content and emotional valence of the error contained in personal reality determines whether we describe that error as religion, psychopathology, or something else.

Cultural Reality

The inclusion of a category with the label "cultural reality" reinforces what was said previously about the "social construction" of reality. The reality of the individual is to some extent the result of constructions that are fabricated and propagated by culture. We are all tattooed from birth with indelible beliefs and understandings as they are served up to us by the culture into which we are born. However, this does not necessarily imply that all people rally around a single culture which manufactures a single set of messages, or suggestions. Granted, in many instances, the vast majority of those born within a specific culture will endorse the dominant core of that culture. For example, most adult people in contemporary Western culture would not feel threatened at the prospect of allowing their children to receive an education. Indeed, the majority would probably see it as a positive and worthwhile undertaking. But certain individuals are also subject to the influence of any number of subcultures which, together, make up the composite culture. Even with regard to the matter of the desirability of education, one could point to significant Western subcultures wherein education is viewed with fear and suspicion (e.g., the Amish and Mennonites). Therefore, our approach to the concept of culture must be flexible enough to include the shaping forces of subcultures, as well as those of the mainstream culture. As a result, we need to define cultural reality broadly as the constellation of externally delivered suggestions that are normalized on the basis of group endorsement. The term "normalized" as it is used here means normal both in the sense that a suggestion has achieved normative status, and that it is experienced as normal by the person.

The above definition allows for the possibility that a suggestion can be normalized by a subculture, sometimes even if it lacks majority endorsement in that society as a whole. One question that immediately arises is this: How large and/or cohesive must a group be for it to be capable of normalizing a suggestion? There is no simple answer that will apply to all individuals across all cultural contexts. While not trying to beg the question, it can only be said that a cultural suggestion becomes an element of the reality of a person when the group is, in fact, sufficiently large and/or cohesive for the person to perceive that suggestion as normal, or normative.

We see, therefore, that cultural reality refers to reality that is shared, or agreed upon, at the group level, even if that group is only one portion of the total population. Of course, conflicts can arise between the reality of the dominant culture and that of a subculture. For instance, some Amish children are quite literally presented with two opposing cultural realities on the issue of education, progress, technology, and so forth. As a result, conflict situations can arise later when educational and lifestyle decisions become necessary.

We saw that personal reality overlaps only partially with empirical reality, and that the capacity to err is an inevitable feature of personal reality. The same is true of cultural reality. In fact, one central function of any workable culture is to offer mental constructions of reality that are erroneous in relation to empirical reality. In a sense, culture is the central bank of cognitive distortions that provide individual members the means by which to translate empirical reality into a more acceptable form. The mass biasing of empirical reality often carries the label "religion," even though this process spills over into other terminological categories.

There may be some truth to the adage that the job of the old is to lie to the young. Likewise, Ernest Becker may have been justified in describing culture as a "macro-lie."12 In addition to normalizing errors, culture also transmits a great deal of vital data that is in dose accord with primary or empirical reality. This has the obvious advantage of delivering information that is essential for survival. But cognitive error is also a requisite for survival; therefore, cultural reality must be viewed as an intentional and necessary blend of information and misinformation.

Since both cultural reality and personal reality overlap partially with empirical reality, we must next consider the overlap between personal and cultural reality. In the same way that the individual can self-control empirical reality, the individual can take self-initiative in modifying cultural reality. Under hypothetically ideal social and situational conditions, individuals would have little need to deviate much from culturally constructed reality. In most instances, alterations to cultural reality are made only when situational and/or intrapsychic factors deem this to be necessary. However, the general breakdown of traditional systems of religion, such as we have seen over the past three centuries, can also lead to widespread individual modifications to cultural reality....

I have been using the term "regulation" as it relates to reality since the word connotes four qualities that are unique to the human experience of reality. The first of these is that reality is not a fixed thing for human beings. The contours of one person's particular reality may differ quite dramatically at various points in time. Second, the word "regulation" implies that personal reality is potentially inaccurate in the sense of being out of alignment with an "anchored" primary reality that is not subject to these shifts. Third, "regulation" implies an ongoing adjustment process that is purposeful. Fourth, the word suggests that some intelligence is at work, providing the information which, in turn, determines the degree and direction of the adjustments. Since we are accustomed to equating normality with degree of contact with a reality that we imagine to be stable, the prospect of a reality regulation process casts doubt over our usual methods for defining what is normal and abnormal.
 
Dingo said:
I remember when I read that my reaction in my mind was to assume he was wrong, because Gurdjieff is right, but then I immediately thought, why is Gurdjieff right, based on what facts? Am I basing this on the fact that members of this forum see him as being right, and if so, why? I then started to think that everyone is basing their beliefs on facts etc that in all honesty, can not be proven to be 100% correct by anyone, as in the end, it is all words. Everything beyond an actual 'experience' is based on words describing that experience, and everyone will have different ways of experiencing something. I certainly am not able to determine if anything I experience is truth or not, but then again, that is probably just my fault.
I think a good way to look at the issue you mention above is to not accept things as true, but experiment with the ideas and collect information that can be used to either validate or negate the idea. There has been a lot of information and experiences over the last couple of years posted on the forum where Laura and others quote G in relation to events and situations and also quote things like Political Ponerology to give a better understanding or to show that G and others are on the right track with what they are saying. Another aspect I think is observing a situation over time and seeing where the data points in terms of truth. The Iraq war is a good example where if you were on the fence about whether the gov't lies, hides, distorts the truth, etc then from watching what happened over the years you would be able to see it is the case.

Edit Added: Also you may find this thread worth reading:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=1922.0 What is Truth?
 
What about reality being a consesus between consciousness units, and objectivity the hability of this units to observe it with non identification?.

Does it make sense?
 
I expect that what we experience as "hard" reality IS due to a consensus between consciousness units but it is generally at a level that is not accessible to most of them: the "belief center." Saying you believe something and having it "written on the heart" are often two different things. And then, there are beliefs that are limiting or dangerous because what is known at deeper levels is not understood at intellectual levels. It really is a can of worms which is why we have to start with what is presented to us as though it really were "just out there" and begin to build our understanding of how it really works one cautious step at a time.
 
I want to thank everyone for their responses. They are too numerous to answer individually. I read them all a few days ago but decided to wait a while before responding.

I do find it difficult to say exactly what is on my mind in pretty much all areas of my life, my relationships, my music, my children, my ideas, thoughts, etc etc....Maybe this is true for most, I don't know. However, I would rather say something and have it sound ridiculous, be wrong, or cause me further issues, than say nothing at all, but I have also found that in order to consider others, once again, in my relationships, colleagues, people on forums etc etc, this is not always an appropriate action to take.

I wish to be able to express a theory I have based on experience, but I can not base it on any facts. For example, I am a student of the stock/currency/futures/housing markets and my studies of this area have suggested to me and others whom I have studied alongside, and learned under, that it is the herd that drives the markets. I say suggested because it is just a theory and not something that can be proven by fact, but only experience. Using the markets as an example, the herd can be right about the direction of the markets, but what matters most to them is when and how they participate. Whenever you reach a point where not only does the herd all agree with the direction of the market but are also participating or positioned in it, will the market stop and reverse, simply because there is no one left to participate and drive it further. However, before it ever gets to that point, the herd may all agree in the direction and can all be right, and as long as they do not participate the market will be allowed to head further in that direction.

With this theory about the markets, can we then use this same theory on the red pill blue pill idea? Let's humour ourselves for a minute and imagine that at some point in the near future we will all be given the chance to take either a blue pill or a red pill. Now my question to you is which one would you take?
 
Dingo said:
I want to thank everyone for their responses. They are too numerous to answer individually. I read them all a few days ago but decided to wait a while before responding.

I do find it difficult to say exactly what is on my mind in pretty much all areas of my life, my relationships, my music, my children, my ideas, thoughts, etc etc....Maybe this is true for most, I don't know. However, I would rather say something and have it sound ridiculous, be wrong, or cause me further issues, than say nothing at all, but I have also found that in order to consider others, once again, in my relationships, colleagues, people on forums etc etc, this is not always an appropriate action to take.

I think one must learn to say what is on one's mind, in a way that allows freedom of expression and honors others 'sensibilities', as it were. This is External Consideration. Saying what is on your mind is important, it's how you say it that matters. :)

dingo said:
I wish to be able to express a theory I have based on experience, but I can not base it on any facts. For example, I am a student of the stock/currency/futures/housing markets and my studies of this area have suggested to me and others whom I have studied alongside, and learned under, that it is the herd that drives the markets. I say suggested because it is just a theory and not something that can be proven by fact, but only experience. Using the markets as an example, the herd can be right about the direction of the markets, but what matters most to them is when and how they participate. Whenever you reach a point where not only does the herd all agree with the direction of the market but are also participating or positioned in it, will the market stop and reverse, simply because there is no one left to participate and drive it further. However, before it ever gets to that point, the herd may all agree in the direction and can all be right, and as long as they do not participate the market will be allowed to head further in that direction.

I think, perhaps, that using the market and people's behavior regarding such as a symbol of anything even remotely connected to objective reality is deeply flawed. The market is wholly manipulated - it is literally 'made up' - there is nothing objective about it, but I may be completely missing your point.


dingp said:
With this theory about the markets, can we then use this same theory on the red pill blue pill idea? Let's humour ourselves for a minute and imagine that at some point in the near future we will all be given the chance to take either a blue pill or a red pill. Now my question to you is which one would you take?

The red pill. ;)
 
Dingo said:
With this theory about the markets, can we then use this same theory on the red pill blue pill idea? Let's humour ourselves for a minute and imagine that at some point in the near future we will all be given the chance to take either a blue pill or a red pill. Now my question to you is which one would you take?
Hi Dingo

If this is being asked literally, than the whole idea is quite subjective. Aren't we taking either of the pills every day or every single moment of our lives based on our actions? This is not some Morpheus entity offering Neo a one time chance to wake up by eating a Red pill. We are confronted with various situations everyday and based on our experiences and constant learning, we take either a blue or red pill. A month later, we may take a different pill in a similar situation as a result of new information acquired allowing us to decide more objectively. OSIT
 

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