what is your identity

[whitecoast]

Thanks again for the replies. I am just wondering how to word my thoughts on our little i's versus essence and and how we are programmed throughout our lives to someone in the medical industry that jasnt been exposed to the work. I mentioned something and althoigh he seems to agree we are mechanical he also dismissed the idea that we are born with oir essence.

Well Gurdjieff defined Essence as that which we're born with, as opposed to what we acquire through education (which is personality). The closest thing scientifically to essence is temperament, which can be attributed to genetics and pre and postnatal environmental perceptions. You'd probably have a harder time convincing him of soul family and karmic profile contributing to genetics/temperament as the C's seem to believe.

If he is skeptical but open minded, he may appreciate Stephen Braude's rigorous examination of parapsychology concepts (he's the author of immortal remains, the gold leaf lady, and PSI). Once the possibility of non-physical information is accepted, I would assume it's much easier to accept things like spiritual essence and the like.

 

[davey72]

i just realized that he needed it by today, so this is what i came up with on short notice. i feel that i wasn't really sure of what i wanted to say, and it isn't very eloquent, as i am not very articulate. or that is the identity i have of myself anyways, but at the least i think it was good for me as a writing exercise, and to start my brain up again. Maybe i will finally make the leap and start networking about my problems more. Thanks again everyone for your comments.
P.S. i used a little from one of your comments near the end. I hope you dont mind.

IDENTITY
This is my own subjective view of identity.I believe that we are all born with an essence, or temperment if you will that is our true selves


that is a blend between our genetic potential and our soul.
this essence is easily damaged and hidden due to lifes influence. our personalities are shaped and begin to smother our essence. our personality comes from our parents, education and society in general as well as dissociation from what we at the time perceive to be traumatic experiences. It is shaped by our impressions both internall and external.These dissociations help shape our personalities, and while helpful at the time are carried with us into adulthood to become an obstacle on our path to self discovery.
That being said, once we reach adulthood we are essentially functioning MPD's. We are never the same person from one day, hour, minute to the next;Therefore our identity is also never the same in that respect, but also because we are learning all the time. In a general sense these idiosynchrisities are taken as a whole which gives us a view of our own identity and likewise will give others a view of our identity. In regards to our own perceived identity cognitive dissonance plays a role in shaping our view of ourselves. We cannot trust our minds to give us an accurate view of ourselves, if we do not accept beliefs or new information that does not fit our current paradigms.
I also think that our own words, and the words of others can shape our identity. for example, if i go to an A.A. meeting every week stating my name and saying i am an addict i think this becomes negative reinforcement. This is the never changing view of myself, therefore this is what i'll always be.Conversely my identity will be different for this group of people than it will for the people i work with if they never know of my addiction.
Parents,education,interactions with society, and the traumas we dissociate from, or our perceptions of such will combine to shape our personalities, or identity.Due to all of this, and the way the brain tricks us, i do not think it possible to get a true sense of our own identity without many honest mirrors. If we are willing to accept peoples views of us when they are brutally honest then we may get a better picture of ourselves.
People also tend to identfy with others, and even inanimate objects.
People also tend to have black and white thinking which can also shape our views. Like an electrical current will always take the path of least resistance, so then will our thought processes. (as above, so below) It is only through conscious effort that we are able to make an informed decision.Unfortunately many young personalities are not taught or shaped to value this type of work.
In short i believe temperment has it's roots in temperement which is then molded by society to give a cookie cutter impression of a personality. This is my black and white answer. The grey answer would take much pondering and much more writing.
In retrospect i think the discovery of one's own identity is an ongoing, everchanging lifelong process.
"the man whos is the same at 50 as he was at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life"-muhamed Ali-
We appear to be made up of many different personalities shaped by experience, influence, and perhaps even past lives,etc. The majority of people are basically stumbling through a series of reactions to stimuli. We are influenced by how others see us, and can subconsciously absorb our positions and identity from others. Which can also change our identity from day to day. I am often what others see me as, and tell me that i am. sometimes what we see is what we are looking for.
Sorry Dr Rose. i wish i had a little more time with this. I would have liked to have something better for you, but here it is. At the very least i think it was good for me, which may have been all you were looking for in the first place.

 

[davey72]

I would lke to add that any honest critiques are very welcome

 

[Deleted member 9511]

It seems those of us in the Work are practicing not to identify with the numerous small i's formed in us throughout life. Until we have a fully seated Real I, the practice of not identifying with the changing small i's helps to remember that these are transitory, programmed, and mechanical "identities". So pretty much all usual identities are aspects of false personality in Work terms. Knowing this and practicing self observation and self remembering makes it easier to fall into identification of all sorts less frequent.

I just read this the other day:

You are the mind or think that you are the mind. The mind is nothing but thoughts. Now behind every particular thought there is a general thought which is the 'I', that is yourself. Let us call this 'I' the first thought. Stick to this 'I'-thought and question it to find out what it is. When this question takes strong hold on you, you cannot think of other thoughts - Ramana Maharshi

This is nothing new. Ramana Maharshi's teachings and insistence on questioning "Who Am I?" have been well known for decades. Gurdjieff seems to be saying the same thing, that all the various identities we experience are merely thoughts about identity, not true identity.

I know that a large part of The Work is supposed to be objective thinking, and I understand it's value, particularly as an antidote for wishful thinking, but there is something that I can't reconcile with what I see as a logical conclusion: there is only one I, one self, one consciousness, one mind, one universe, etc. One without other would be neither subject nor object. According to some things I have read, and maybe I misunderstand, but subjectivity is seen as a bad thing. Well, if there is a radical subjectivity (a term I attribute to the late Dr. David Hawkins), context devoid of content, then where is the object to relate to the subject? And if objectivity is the method of release from this madness, what is the object that exercises objectivity? Does the subject, the 'I' do that? What 'I'?

What might be a different perspective, and an answer to the question "where does it come from" that struck me immediately, is that identity is imagined. It is unreal. It is illusion. The radical subject looks at itself and sees it's reflection, imagines it as "other" and the 'I'-thought instigates and endless cascade of competing identities. All imaginary.

 

[davey72]

Here is a new question he has posed to me. I would like to hear others opinions please.

Our identity is not only how we perceive ourselves, but also how others perceive us. And how we perceive ourselves can be significantly affected by how others perceive and relate to us, like the parent who tells her kid he'll never amount to anything, so his chances of amounting to something are decreased. Likewise, how the medical system (and society?) treats people with addiction is similar: we trap the person in the identity of "the addict", rather than saying "you have an addiction". It then becomes harder for the person to recover their normal identity, once their addictive disorder is controlled.Do you think this is true? Why or why not?Don't kill yourself over this, I just thought it'd be good to h ave the view of someone who has "been there done that".Thanks, David,

Interesting viewpoint ge0m0

 

[lilyalic]

Here is a new question he has posed to me. I would like to hear others opinions please.

Our identity is not only how we perceive ourselves, but also how others perceive us. And how we perceive ourselves can be significantly affected by how others perceive and relate to us, like the parent who tells her kid he'll never amount to anything, so his chances of amounting to something are decreased. Likewise, how the medical system (and society?) treats people with addiction is similar: we trap the person in the identity of "the addict", rather than saying "you have an addiction". It then becomes harder for the person to recover their normal identity, once their addictive disorder is controlled.Do you think this is true? Why or why not?Don't kill yourself over this, I just thought it'd be good to h ave the view of someone who has "been there done that".Thanks, David,

Interesting viewpoint ge0m0

Well yeah I think we live up to the expectations of others, it's like the self-fulfilling prophecy - take for instance a child who goes into school with a bad attitude, his teacher will assume he'll do bad in class, the teacher will give less useful feedback on his work etc, the child will eventually take on the role of "doing bad in class" - and therefore, only do was is expected of him. I don't think this applies in ALL cases, but your point in regards to a parent expecting the child to never amount to something will most of the time result in the child thinking this also.

I think "society" places far too many labels on everyone, we identify ourselves with traits, personality, even OUR NAME. You play hockey? you're a hockey player, you did drugs? you're a druggie, you have a child? you're a mother...

the mind is an invaluable servant whose brilliant logic is simply corrupted by its delusion that it is the master. [...] our minds more often operate in a vacuum, revving themselves like manic hamster in a cage; goals, plans, reactions, and facts, all whirling around until the little dynamo stopped by death.

I thought this was relevant in terms of our minds being corrupted.. and that of the rest of society... I don't even think they consider souls.