What would be the right thing to do in this situation?

celestialvisionz

Padawan Learner
Situation #1:

Say that you have a mutual relationship with the animals in your home most would call them "pets" but I find that to be somewhat domineering, anyway what would you do if they were getting into everything and knocking things over all the while destroying your items in the apartment, now this question arises because I do not want to be controlling and put them in a room with the door closed but for the time span it stops them from being obstructive, I cannot let them go outside either because I live in a rather small apartment I could try and teach them and have tried but that is another form of control as well because I am not sure if they want to be taught, this is my conundrum for the time being and not only with this type of situation but with others as well because there is always going to be something that conflicts with your way of being. So what would you say is the rightly objective way of handling such matters? Maybe I should just let it go and let them do whatever they want, but it is correct for me to place boundaries because in order to develop my growth that would seem somewhat plausible but still service to self, but I do need to survive or do I?
 
Hello celestialvisionz, :)

It's in French, but I think it can help ...

_http://bienvenussurlanouvelleterre.jimdo.com/dialogues-2015/dialogue-n-38/
 
celestialvisionz said:
So what would you say is the rightly objective way of handling such matters? Maybe I should just let it go and let them do whatever they want, but it is correct for me to place boundaries because in order to develop my growth that would seem somewhat plausible but still service to self, but I do need to survive or do I?

Well, first of all there was a related discussion on the forum, that may answer your questions.

As for my personal view on animal companions...we all have our own lessons, including 2D creatures. And careful observation of dogs, for example, shows that their make-up and well-being requires having boundaries and training. For example, it is advised to start training puppies when they are only 4 months old, and do it through play, since this is how they learn best. Not because it may be harder training them when they are older, but because they are happy when they have a job or a role, or commands they would need to follow.

They are like children, always testing boundaries, and just like with children they may not like it at first, but not disciplining them (in a caring and loving way) would gradually make them little narcissists, and then adult narcissists. As for cats, they have a different psychology, They do understand the concept of "not allowed", but obviously would constantly try to test the boundary. And the sign of a good "pet owner" isn't allowing his pets to do everything they want and be out of control, but to take responsibility and make an effort to make their life happier and more orderly. Hope it helps.
 
May I ask which kind of companions you are talking about, and how many? And whether you've had them since they were babies or not?

Setting boundaries is not STS if you do it lovingly. It teaches others to respect themselves too, as you respect yourself. When you have an animal companion (but it applies to humans too), you are establishing a sort of contract. And both parties can learn to live together in harmony if they want to. The responsibility falls on the more conscious person to set boundaries, time for "play", etc. Otherwise, the other members of that small community may feel they have no clear goal, that they don't really matter to their caretaker. Why bother be "good" if the human doesn't seem to care? We might as well act up. That way we get attention. Now, that could be seen as STS from the part of the owner, since it requires the least amount of effort, and the companions are to blame in his or her mind, sort of.

Maybe I should just let it go and let them do whatever they want, but it is correct for me to place boundaries because in order to develop my growth that would seem somewhat plausible but still service to self, but I do need to survive or do I?

Turn that around: It's not placing boundaries in order to develop your growth (although that is part of the equation if in other areas of life you just let things happen and people abuse you or whatever, and you can never say NO), but it is also and mainly for THEIR growth.

If you don't survive, who's going to care for those beings? Therefore, discipline and knowing that there are boundaries can give them a life with safety, instead of a life of chaos. Whenever we refuse to do all the above, it's usually because we want to be seen as a "nice" person. But "nice" people are often very narcissistic themselves. It's about their self-image, and not wanting to make efforts to stand up for themselves, not have anybody criticize them. That's just mechanical and STS.

I hope this helps, though your description wasn't very clear, at least to me.
 
If you specified what animals you where talking about, then maybe folks here can give you better advice, :)
I agree that animals do test boundaries, I only have full experience with my pet Parakeet, and he definitely pushes the boundaries.

Unfortunately, when he was young I let him do whatever he pleased, I was amazed with him as I got him when I was 16/17 so I kept him to myself (now he doesn't really take to other people) and let him run havoc. I've found that when he "kicks off" or starts destroying items in my room, I just give him something to keep him preoccupied. How well do you know what they like? can you provide them other entertainment to distract them? For instance, if he's chewing something of mine, then I give him a bobble, cotton or tissue, a banana chip or seeds... that distracts him. Most of them time he wants kisses and attention, so that seems to work.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes I get frustrated but that's usually when I'm annoyed or there's something I'm dealing with, but then I remember that he doesn't know that - and giving him the love and attention he needs helps my moods.

I recently discovered I have a family of Mice living in my room, I dealt with it for a month with sleepless nights because I felt too guilty to do anything. But then I decided the best thing to do was to capture them, and set them free somewhere else (it was either sleepless nights, or letting the mice fend on their own).
 
Really good observations everyone I thank you all for posting. These companions are Cats.
Chu you are assuming that humans are smarter than cats. Now I know that there is valid evidence to prove such things but that is only logical thinking forevermore one way of perceiving when there are countless other ways to conceive and within this type of frame of mind I do find myself responsible for them at a certain level, but on another level I find that I am not as I think that they would be responsible for their own physicality as well. Now they are in the apartment 24/7 which is another form of control, they are only 6 months old. I do not think that I should control them not because I am trying to be nice even though I have had that programming before but because I am trying to do what is right and by placing boundaries on them is saying that I KNOW with certainty what it is that is best for them which truly I do not know with certainty what is best for them but I do know what is best for me and placing boundaries on them would be best for me. All I can do is observe them, study information and provide each day with an in depth analysis of each situation as it occurs and try and come up with the most accurate methods for helping each other from the results of what I have observed.
 
celestialvisionz said:
I do not know with certainty what is best for them but I do know what is best for me and placing boundaries on them would be best for me. All I can do is observe them, study information and provide each day with an in depth analysis of each situation as it occurs and try and come up with the most accurate methods for helping each other from the results of what I have observed.

If you take a living creature into your home, you should assume responsibility for it. It is simple as that. On the other hand, cats sometimes "adopt" or choose their "owners" themselves. Temple Grandin, one of the most talented animal behaviorists said the following: “Dogs serve people, but people serve cats.”

Guess it kind of depends to what extend you wish to be their "servant", and if you are willing to put an effort and make it a "win win" situation.
 
Hi celestialvision​z,

Our cat goes crazy sometimes too - especially on the new, beautiful couch we bought last year :O What we do is whenever she starts doing this, we scream at her (she doesn't like this at all), or grab her gently and tell her "no!!" Afterwards, we are nice to her, cuddle her etc., to show her she doesn't need to be afraid of us.

From what I understand, animals live very much "in the moment", so it doesn't make sense at all to "punish" them afterwards, like withdrawing food, being angry with them for hours etc. They just cannot make the connection between their "misbehavior" and these "punishments". With animals, you need to give them immediate feedback to set boundaries, and show them that you know what you are doing, that you are reliable, and that they can trust you, OSIT.

As for the spiritual reflections on our interactions with 2D, I think Chu explained it very well. You might also be interested in the book "Darkness over Tibet" (thread), where I think some of your questions and confusions are addressed, if I understood you correctly.

FWIW, here is an excerpt - it doesn't talk about pets specifically, and is more a metaphor about our concepts of good and evil, but it speaks about the confusion concerning spirituality and our tendency to pretend that "we are all one", when in fact, this is not true from our human perspective:

Darkness over Tibet said:
The play glorified renunciation and non-resistance to evil. Again and again it stressed the prospect of getting happiness as a reward for renunciation. The hero of the play (I use the word in a technical sense, for a pitiful hero he was for that matter) was out to discard his personality in order to get happiness. Why do people seek an unselfish conception of life? Is it because we have so much love and sympathy with the troubles of others that we begin to be ashamed of our selfishness which causes so much suffering ? Or is it because we want happiness in exchange for a non-egocentrical conception of life ?
In the play performed in the monastery the motive of the hero was the latter and not the former. He wanted bliss as a reward for discarding his personality. The play started with an exceedingly long monologue on the evils of existence. I quote from memory. The taking down of notes while I travelled in disguise in Tibet was most difficult and only possible on rare occasions. The hero in the play dwelt at great length on the various evils of existence. He seemed to lose sight of the many things which make life worth living and which are partly even within the reach of people not specially favoured by fortune, such as love, friendship, enthusiasm, beauty of nature, etc.

"Life is bad," he mused,
"Life is suffering and pain only.
"Nothing is real.
"Everything is unreal.
"Annihilation is the goal."

I looked at beautiful Dolma. I looked at the sun generously filling with his radiant light the courtyard of the monastery, and wondered whether the poor hero realized what dreadful blasphemy he was uttering. What! The Creator should have made this wonderful universe—full of suffering, true, but also full of enjoyment, the suffering preventing enjoyment from becoming monotonous—for the purpose that His creatures should realize that existence was an evil and that their supreme goal was to escape from it. I compared the poor hero in the Tibetan play with the glorious figure of Hamlet, who intensely feels the dreadful tragedy of being only a man and nothing but man. Being a genius and capable of the most intense feelings, Hamlet suffers infinitely more than the Tibetan hero, but nevertheless he has the courage and nobility of character to face his troubles as a creature without any thought of escape or "salvation".

The hero was married and had children. He worked to feed his family. He was attacked by a swarm of mosquitoes. The lamas had a strange stage trick to represent an enormous swarm of mosquitoes. I wondered how it was done, but it looked very genuine. The hero gave his life-blood to the mosquitoes ! "The dear little ones," he said, "let them have a good meal. I have to feed my family, but the family and the mosquitoes are the same thing." Having fed so many mosquitoes, the hero was taken i l l and the play went on, describing his sufferings and the sufferings of his family brought about by his inability to work. Just when their food supply was running out, rats put in an appearance in their house. The part of rats was played by Tibetan children who wore masks and neatly carried their long tails under their arms. The hero said : *

"Eat, little rats, eat, eat, eat,
"Feed your little bodies, grey brothers.
"Eat, grey brothers, eat, eat, eat.
"Our food is yours, grey brothers.
"Eat, little rats, eat, eat, eat."

I quote these passages from memory, but should like to add that the text of the dialogues and monologues was much longer, and much more elaborate. The rats ate the food of the semi-starved family and became more and more numerous. A scene came in now in which the hero exalted the happiness of giving away everything. "If the rats eat the first half of my meal, I give them the second half," he exclaimed, in what a heretical spectator might have called a fit of religious hysteria. He did not seem to consider what his own children thought of it, but this seemed to be of less importance to him than the well-being of the rats. A l l the above had lasted more than two hours, but the play went on uninterruptedly—the Tibetan crowds following it with breathless suspense. Some people had their mouths wide open, while others shed tears, and not a whisper could be heard. In the following scene the rats had become fourfold in number. All the food was eaten. The hero and his children were seated in the centre and a few dozen rats walked round them in circles which were becoming smaller and smaller.

"Kyir, kyir.* We are hungry. Round, round,
round. There is nothing to eat, kyir, kyir, kyir"

came the chorus of the rats. The hero started a long monologue full of pity for the rats. The religious gentleman seemed to have forgotten all about the hunger of his own children. Suddenly the rats seized one of the children and carried the little one outside in order to devour it. The hero was unperturbed. He started a lofty monologue about the joy of sacrificing one's own children and the glory of union of all creatures. At that moment a Tibetan youngster stifled a laugh. The public was aghast and there were loud shouts of protest. The sinner was instantly escorted * "Round, round." out by a few lamas and the play went on. It was some time before a few old ladies had got over their indignation. Dolma told me in whispers that she could not remember having seen a play where the "religious" tendency had been so apparent as in the present one. The amusement of the Tibetan youngster had greatly upset the lamas. Dolma said that it was probable they would quickly cancel a few of the remaining scenes which were "most religious", as the play seemed to be too strong for the younger generation. "Have you ever seen so highly religious a play ?" she asked in a low voice. "No," I said. I am sure I told the truth when I said that. The monologue of the hero, which had been interrupted by the outbreak of the youngster, continued interminably. He envied his child, he declared, because it had for a short while at least made its escape from this world of suffering. He seemed to imply that death was a very cheerful and enviable process. After finishing his monologue, the hero was distinctly pleased. So were the rats. And the religious play went on.

[...]

She asked me whether I considered the attitude of the hero in the play a proper one for a really religious person. "No , " I answered. "Shall man be selfish, then ?" she asked. "Is it wrong to try to be good ?" "No, but it is wrong to try to be like God." "But God is good. Trying to be like God leads to goodness." "The creature must not overstep its limits," I said, "by trying to be like God. If he does so, he acts like the angels who revolted against the Creator. There are two different types of impersonality— namely, Be-ing and Be-ness.* The former is an attribute of the creature, the latter an attribute of the Creator. Be-ness is absolute impersonality where all division between the " I " and the "non-I" ceases. It is beyond the reach of the creature. "What happens to a man who wants to attain this state ?" asked Dolma. "He commits the greatest and most deadly sin against the Creator."
 
luc said:
FWIW, here is an excerpt - it doesn't talk about pets specifically, and is more a metaphor about our concepts of good and evil, but it speaks about the confusion concerning spirituality and our tendency to pretend that "we are all one", when in fact, this is not true from our human perspective:

Luc, thank you very much for the quote :flowers:, because I wanted to share the same story, but couldn't remember the specifics and where did I read it from. Spending time searching the net also didn't yield any results. It was a bit frustrating, actually. But awesome that you remembered. :wizard:
 
Keit said:
luc said:
FWIW, here is an excerpt - it doesn't talk about pets specifically, and is more a metaphor about our concepts of good and evil, but it speaks about the confusion concerning spirituality and our tendency to pretend that "we are all one", when in fact, this is not true from our human perspective:

Luc, thank you very much for the quote :flowers:, because I wanted to share the same story, but couldn't remember the specifics and where did I read it from. Spending time searching the net also didn't yield any results. It was a bit frustrating, actually. But awesome that you remembered. :wizard:

What a nice synchronicity :flowers: I actually copied the excerpt from a post I made quite a while ago so it was easy for me now, but at the time, it took me quite a while to find that quote even though I remembered it was from "Darkness over Tibet". I re-read it then in the process, and I think it's really a gem. Maybe time for another re-read :)
 
These companions are doing a great job at bringing me back down into the world which is somewhere I do not want to be. I thank you all for bringing back my awareness upon such matters as you are very gifted.
 
celestialvisionz said:
I do find myself responsible for them at a certain level, but on another level I find that I am not as I think that they would be responsible for their own physicality as well.

If you want them to be responsible for themselves in the rather unnatural environment of your home, then you should probably move out and leave the house to them. Alternatively, you could set them loose in the wild. If you want to stay in your home but also want to have cats in that "unnatural" environment, then you are responsible for them and what they do and for making sure that they adapt to that environment to the best extent they can because it is, after all, a human environment, made by and for a human, and not specifically adapted for cats. :D
 
I don't think you have any business with pets. Your dilemma and cluelessness is reflected by their behavior. Do them a favor and find new homes for them.
 
celestialvisionz said:
Situation #1:

Say that you have a mutual relationship with the animals in your home most would call them "pets" but I find that to be somewhat domineering, anyway what would you do if they were getting into everything and knocking things over all the while destroying your items in the apartment, now this question arises because I do not want to be controlling and put them in a room with the door closed but for the time span it stops them from being obstructive, I cannot let them go outside either because I live in a rather small apartment I could try and teach them and have tried but that is another form of control as well because I am not sure if they want to be taught, this is my conundrum for the time being and not only with this type of situation but with others as well because there is always going to be something that conflicts with your way of being. So what would you say is the rightly objective way of handling such matters? Maybe I should just let it go and let them do whatever they want, but it is correct for me to place boundaries because in order to develop my growth that would seem somewhat plausible but still service to self, but I do need to survive or do I?

It looks to me like you could use another description of 'control.' If cats need to climb, then providing them something to climb can save your curtains or drapes from a shredding. If cats need to explore, then providing them an explorable environment will likely interest them. If cats need to scratch to keep their claws sharp, then providing them a scratching post or two might save your sofas and chairs, etc., etc., etc. Control, in this case, means using your mind to create a cat-friendly environment. Use your mind to create a context for what you want to happen.

On a lighter note, cats can help you with self-importance, I think. There's nothing like having a cat crawl across your face and pass gas first thing in the morning to let you know they are aware that you're not up bright and early preparing their breakfast. What are you going to do? :D
 
The right thing to do in this situation would be anything that makes living together with your cats a pleasant and enjoyable experience for all.

Read some cat behavior books or watch some videos and implement what you've learned. Buy them some toys and play with them. Maybe they won't tear up your place if they are more occupied. They are kittens, after all.

No need to turn it into a 3D dominating 2D issue. The cats are acting up. Try and fix it.
 
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