Wolves & Buffalos

[Voyageur]

Started watching this documentary "Wolves of Canada : Wildlife Documentary on Wolves", thinking i would browse through it quickly (it is an hour in length) having been acquainted with a few wolf biologists and their studies. Nevertheless, the filmmaker here, along with his dialogue, captured a very interesting look at a particular northern wolf pack featuring the alpha male he calls "Storm" and his mate, "Suzy". The Buffalo, the wolf's food source, also have a delicate life cycle, yet thrive in the location of 'Wood Buffalo Park', in Northern Alberta.

At one point in the film, this "Storm" leads his way into a heard of mature Buffalo and then suddenly bypasses them all, like he has been given a message - the filmmaker does not understand what "Storm" is doing, yet their senses are just so highly tuned.

Anyway, there are some unusual aspects to the film depicted in the Wolf, their pack and pups and the Buffalo, that are not seen everyday.

_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWrqmrBJtOo

 

[Keit]

Anyway, there are some unusual aspects to the film depicted in the Wolf, their pack and pups and the Buffalo, that are not seen everyday.

Thank you for the recommendation! Saved the link for later in order to watch it when will have more time.

And just to share some interesting info bits about wolfs...and dogs (In case someone here isn't aware of them. I certainly wasn't!), here are several quotes from the book I am reading: "Animals Make Us Human" by Temple Gradin.

One of my biggest surprises doing the research for this book was reading L.David Mech's thirteen year study of the wolves on Ellesmere Island in the Northwest Territories (now part of Nunavut) of Canada. Mech's findings turn practically everything we thought we knew about wolves upside down. Since dogs are genetic wolves, that means we need to think about dogs in some new ways too, which is what I am talking about.

Dr. Mech's most important finding for people thinking about wolves and dogs: In the wild, wolves don't live in wolf packs, and they don't have an alpha male who fights the other wolves to maintain his dominance. Our whole image of wolf packs and alphas is completely wrong. Instead, wolves live the way people do: in families made up of mom, a dad, and their children. Sometimes an unrelated wolf can be adopted into a pack, or one of the mom's or dad's relatives is part of the pack (the "maiden aunt"), or a mom or dad who has died could be replaced by a new wolf. But mostly wolf packs are just a mom, a dad, and their pups. [...]

The reason everyone thought wolves live in packs led by alpha is that most research on the social life of wolves has been done on wolves living in captivity, and wolves living in captivity are almost never natural families. They are groups of unrelated animals, put together by humans, that have to come up with some way of dealing with each other.

As for dogs...

Practically every dog-training book you look at tells owners that the single most important thing they need to do is establish themselves as the pack leader. Cesar Millan's extremely popular books and TV shows are all about pack leadership. But if dogs are wolves, and wolves don't have pack leaders, why do dogs need a pack leader? [...]

Dogs evolved to live with humans, but what does that mean? Did dogs evolve to live with human families? And if they did, does that mean dogs living with human families need a mom and a dad, not an alpha? Or are dogs living with human families more like a forced wolf pack than a family, in which case somebody has to be the alpha? [...]

Cesar says all dog owners have to be the pack leader. If dogs living with human beings are psychologically like wolves living with unrelated adults, then he's probably right. The question is: Are adult dogs living with human families like adult wolves living with unrelated wolves, or are dogs living with human families like wolf cubs living with their parents? [...]

What dogs probably need isn't a substitute pack leader but a substitute parent. I say that because genetically dogs are juvenile wolves, and young wolves live with their parents and siblings. During evolution dogs went through a process called pedomorphosis, which means that dog puppies stop developing earlier than wolf cubs do. It's a kind of arrested development.

That's why dogs - especially purebred dogs - look less "wolfy" than real wolves. Baby animals have "baby faces" the same way human babies do. [...] Thanks to some really interesting research done in England, we know that dog facial features and dog behavior generally go together. Dr. Deborah Goodwin and her colleagues found that the more wolfy a breed looks, the more grown wolf behaviors it has. (a note: Siberian husky rated as the most "wolfy", with Golden retriever being next, and then German shepherd, Labrador retriever, etc. The Dr. thinks the reason the gun dogs kept as many wolfy behaviors as they did might be because hunting dogs need "a fuller range of ancestral behavior" to do their job. About King Charles spaniel she said that they never mature mentally beyond the stage of a puppy.) [...]

One way or the other, the human has to be in charge. Whether you think of yourself as mom, dad, or pack leader probably doesn't matter as long as you're handling your dog right.

It would be interesting to hear about the above ideas from the dog owners here on the forum, and what in your opinion appears to be as the best approach?

 

[Gimpy]

It would be interesting to hear about the above ideas from the dog owners here on the forum, and what in your opinion appears to be as the best approach?

With our dogs it came down to calm confidence. If I were nit picking, it would be closer to a parental role than "I'm the boss." ;)


I agree with Cesar Milan, in that its a matter of energy, and understanding a dogs nature as it is, not as people think it should be. That leaves a lot of room for growth on both sides, once you drop the non sense that says 'dogs are people with fur'.

 

[Voyageur]

And just to share some interesting info bits about wolfs...and dogs (In case someone here isn't aware of them. I certainly wasn't!), here are several quotes from the book I am reading: "Animals Make Us Human" by Temple Gradin.

...
Dr. Mech's most important finding for people thinking about wolves and dogs: In the wild, wolves don't live in wolf packs, and they don't have an alpha male who fights the other wolves to maintain his dominance. Our whole image of wolf packs and alphas is completely wrong. Instead, wolves live the way people do: in families made up of mom, a dad, and their children. Sometimes an unrelated wolf can be adopted into a pack, or one of the mom's or dad's relatives is part of the pack (the "maiden aunt"), or a mom or dad who has died could be replaced by a new wolf. But mostly wolf packs are just a mom, a dad, and their pups. [...]

This is what is generally seen in the film, although the language refers to Pack/Alpha - these wolves are indeed a large extended family. The filmmaker cannot know every animal's lineage as they enter the scene, for instance at the end, two Black wolves show up, which according to him is a rarity. Why were they accepted and for how long is not known. Were they driven out (from the south) by a need, such as a degraded environment (the film shows "Tar-Sands" to the south)?

As for dogs...

...
Dogs evolved to live with humans, but what does that mean? Did dogs evolve to live with human families? And if they did, does that mean dogs living with human families need a mom and a dad, not an alpha? Or are dogs living with human families more like a forced wolf pack than a family, in which case somebody has to be the alpha? [...]

What dogs probably need isn't a substitute pack leader but a substitute parent. I say that because genetically dogs are juvenile wolves, and young wolves live with their parents and siblings. During evolution dogs went through a process called pedomorphosis, which means that dog puppies stop developing earlier than wolf cubs do. It's a kind of arrested development...

Some people raise dogs as a complete family; a mom, dad, pups, so i don't know the nuances of this over the long term as the pups grow, especially if a number of generations come to be. However, it seems that when many of us acquire dogs, they are initially young pups who often have been taken away from their parents (a psychological stressor) and then imprint with the new owner (perhaps quickly or not so quickly), as a parent, not an alpha figure, yet the new human parent often liken themselves to the latter role.

It would be interesting to hear about the above ideas from the dog owners here on the forum, and what in your opinion appears to be as the best approach?

With our dogs it came down to calm confidence. If I were nit picking, it would be closer to a parental role than "I'm the boss." ;)


I agree with Cesar Milan, in that its a matter of energy, and understanding a dogs nature as it is, not as people think it should be. That leaves a lot of room for growth on both sides, once you drop the non sense that says 'dogs are people with fur'.

I see this, too, as a parental role, more so than what has been traditionally though. Our dog, Cassie, who is part Wolf and Golden Retriever, was rescued (age 7 months). She not only had the trauma of separation from her mother, she had the abuse of her human parental guilds. So with her it was being/becoming her new parental nurturer that she very much needed, not a new Alpha, osit.

A few years ago there was a film/study posted here on the forum from Russia concerning wolves/dogs and genetics; i'll look for this again.

 

[Voyageur]

A few years ago there was a film/study posted here on the forum from Russia concerning wolves/dogs and genetics; i'll look for this again.

My mistake, think it was actually about foxes - think it was related to this Sott article: http://www.sott.net/article/194308-My-little-zebra-The-secrets-of-domestication - although not the exact reference remembered that was discussed on the forum.

 

[Keit]

At one point in the film, this "Storm" leads his way into a heard of mature Buffalo and then suddenly bypasses them all, like he has been given a message - the filmmaker does not understand what "Storm" is doing, yet their senses are just so highly tuned.

Anyway, there are some unusual aspects to the film depicted in the Wolf, their pack and pups and the Buffalo, that are not seen everyday.

Thank you again for sharing this film, because it was a really great experience. And I was also amazed by the incident when Storm just took off, left the herd behind and rushed toward two lone Buffalos. Don't know if it can be considered spoilers, as it is a documentary and about nature, but it turns out that one of the Buffalos was old and probably sick. Maybe Storm sensed it somehow, and maybe the Buffalo sent some kind of message, but the fact remains that the leader of the pack was able to sense a soon to come death from a far and sprinted to this location. Then, the pack not only waited for him to die (as according to the narrator, the Buffalo died naturally and without struggle), they evidently didn't touch the other Buffalo, who was together with the old one (maybe being his company during his last moments?).

There is a saying that wolves are sanitarians of the forest, but I thought that they did their job only by conducting their typical hunts and going after the weak and wounded. But this was a great example, that despite the wolves being predators, and Buffalo and such their prey, there is still some sort of understanding, a general dynamic that keeps the cycle of life going.

 

[Gimpy]

At one point in the film, this "Storm" leads his way into a heard of mature Buffalo and then suddenly bypasses them all, like he has been given a message - the filmmaker does not understand what "Storm" is doing, yet their senses are just so highly tuned.

Anyway, there are some unusual aspects to the film depicted in the Wolf, their pack and pups and the Buffalo, that are not seen everyday.

Thank you again for sharing this film, because it was a really great experience. And I was also amazed by the incident when Storm just took off, left the herd behind and rushed toward two lone Buffalos. Don't know if it can be considered spoilers, as it is a documentary and about nature, but it turns out that one of the Buffalos was old and probably sick. Maybe Storm sensed it somehow, and maybe the Buffalo sent some kind of message, but the fact remains that the leader of the pack was able to sense a soon to come death from a far and sprinted to this location. Then, the pack not only waited for him to die (as according to the narrator, the Buffalo died naturally and without struggle), they evidently didn't touch the other Buffalo, who was together with the old one (maybe being his company during his last moments?).

There is a saying that wolves are sanitarians of the forest, but I thought that they did their job only by conducting their typical hunts and going after the weak and wounded. But this was a great example, that despite the wolves being predators, and Buffalo and such their prey, there is still some sort of understanding, a general dynamic that keeps the cycle of life going.

It may be a smell that the wolves pick up on. I've seen cats and dogs that were able to smell cancer, there are also changes in the electrical pulsing of the body that sharks are rumored to pick up from injured/sick animals in the seas. That may play a part too, I don't know.

A predator like a wolf would prefer to expend the least amount of energy to secure food, smelling another animal that large close to natural death would make sense. Likewise, other animals would stay close until the end, to ensure nature takes its course. As tempting as it is to see it as more, I don't think it is human like behavior. Its just nature that people ignored and are rediscovering again.

 

[Keit]

It may be a smell that the wolves pick up on. I've seen cats and dogs that were able to smell cancer, there are also changes in the electrical pulsing of the body that sharks are rumored to pick up from injured/sick animals in the seas. That may play a part too, I don't know.

A predator like a wolf would prefer to expend the least amount of energy to secure food, smelling another animal that large close to natural death would make sense. Likewise, other animals would stay close until the end, to ensure nature takes its course. As tempting as it is to see it as more, I don't think it is human like behavior. Its just nature that people ignored and are rediscovering again.

Very interesting. And yes, you make valid points, and it surely isn't similar to human behavior, but I still find it fascinating. Maybe exactly because this kind of understanding of how nature works is being ignored and isn't known. Well, at least to me. :)

 

[Z...]

There has been a lot of discussion lately in dog training circles whether Cesar Milan pack leader strategy is a sound and whether it can be justified by the actual social structure of the wolfs. In her book Inside of A Dog- animal behaviorist Alexandra Horowitz posit that our conception that wolves live in social structure lead by pack leader where hierarchy is ruthlessly maintained is totally wrong as wolves tend to live in nuclear families where the team work is more valued rather then rigid hierarchy.

While this may be true my experience is that Cesar's recipe boundaries,exercise, affection (in this very order) works in producing well socialized (both with humans and other dogs) and happy/healthy dog.
It is also my observation that some people are just incapable of applying this simple formula, they simply dont have it in them to be assertive with their dogs and nothing can change this. Dogs easily pick up on this and they become dominant in the relationship. Which is not the end of the world but can create some difficulties.

My few cents.

 

[shellycheval]

It is also my observation that some people are just incapable of applying this simple formula, they simply don't have it in them to be assertive with their dogs

Agreed. It is also important to understand that being "assertive" means setting healthy functional boundaries and taking the proper action to ensure civility is maintained.

Assertiveness is NOT aggressiveness. Aggressiveness is a misuse of power over others--animal and human.

Whether one is using the term "pack leader" or "Alpha member" or "parent in charge" the point is the same--providing healthy loving guidance to those, human or else, who
need to learn to assimilate and become functional members of a society. Those in the animal kingdom, who have not had the opportunity to learn civility and manners so they can
coexist with humans are often condemned to miserable fates in animal "shelters," slaughterhouses, etc. Just like parents have an obligation to protect their children by instructing them on how get along with others, the same responsibility rest on those who keep animal companions.

The inability to be able to set healthy boundaries with one's pets often reveals an area of ones character development that needs attention as our relationship with 2D is a major "classroom" for our own advancement, OSIT.

shellycheval

 

[Voyageur]

It is also my observation that some people are just incapable of applying this simple formula, they simply don't have it in them to be assertive with their dogs

Agreed. It is also important to understand that being "assertive" means setting healthy functional boundaries and taking the proper action to ensure civility is maintained.

Assertiveness is NOT aggressiveness. Aggressiveness is a misuse of power over others--animal and human.

Whether one is using the term "pack leader" or "Alpha member" or "parent in charge" the point is the same--providing healthy loving guidance to those, human or else, who
need to learn to assimilate and become functional members of a society. Those in the animal kingdom, who have not had the opportunity to learn civility and manners so they can
coexist with humans are often condemned to miserable fates in animal "shelters," slaughterhouses, etc. Just like parents have an obligation to protect their children by instructing them on how get along with others, the same responsibility rest on those who keep animal companions.

The inability to be able to set healthy boundaries with one's pets often reveals an area of ones character development that needs attention as our relationship with 2D is a major "classroom" for our own advancement, OSIT.

shellycheval

It sure is a classroom and a responsibility to foster reciprocal learning - and they can be very good at learning from us, listening to our tones, commands, sensitivities, joys and they have awareness of our pains, and we to them. They also have keen senses we we don't completely understand, such as the auditory, smell and visual spectrum. I know with our dogs, more often than not i adjust to each of them slightly differently and they in turn react differently when it comes to boundaries and such.

Couple of SoTT articles here:
Why Dogs Really Do Feel Your Pain: Comforting distressed humans may be hardwired in dogs' brains
Dogs 'share their owners' emotions'
Clever Canines: Dogs Can 'Read' Our Communication Cues
Canine telepathy? Study explores how dogs think and learn about human behavior

Was looking for a particular article that explored how dogs look at our eyes; if remembered, they tend to look at one eye over the other (think it is the left).

 

[Z...]

Was looking for a particular article that explored how dogs look at our eyes; if remembered, they tend to look at one eye over the other (think it is the left).

In interactions with humans dog actually look at their left focusing on the right side of human face which more faithfully represents emotions then left side, its explained here in detail

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK7wp2xWOo4

 

[Voyageur]

Was looking for a particular article that explored how dogs look at our eyes; if remembered, they tend to look at one eye over the other (think it is the left).

In interactions with humans dog actually look at their left focusing on the right side of human face which more faithfully represents emotions then left side, its explained here in detail

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK7wp2xWOo4

Excellent, thank you for finding this.