Would We Expect Less From A Man Named Israel?

[Rabelais]

This was so obvious, when it went down a few weeks ago... hubris and arrogance will get you every time. With what is now quoted as in excess of $1 QUADRILLION in relatively worthless hedged derivatives, I expect we will be seeing more vermin fleeing with their plunder as the scam comes unraveled.

Agents search for NY swindler who faked suicide

By JIM FITZGERALD, Associated Press Writer Fri Jun 20, 10:31 AM ET

WHITE PLAINS, N.Y. - If Samuel Israel III had reported to prison like he was supposed to, he would probably be washing dishes, mopping floors or serving meals to fellow inmates today. And he might be getting up at 4:30 a.m. to do it.
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It wasn't a life to look forward to for a man who became fabulously rich — wealthy enough to rent a house from Donald Trump at $32,000 a month — as he swindled hedge-fund investors out of hundreds of millions.

Israel, 48, told a judge that the idea of spending 20 years in prison was so distasteful he had considered suicide. But he eventually decided: "I have to take responsibility for my actions no matter what the consequences."

That sentiment didn't last long. Within two months, federal investigators said, Israel settled on life as a fugitive. On the day he was to surrender, authorities said, he abandoned his SUV on a bridge in the New York City suburbs, etched "Suicide is Painless" in the dust on the hood to make it seem he had jumped, and skedaddled.

On Thursday, 10 days later, agents got their first big break when Debra Ryan, the girlfriend Israel left behind, told them she had helped him pack a recreational vehicle with his belongings and a motor scooter. Ryan was arrested and charged with helping Israel escape.

Authorities released a photo of the RV and its license plate number, and said Israel might be spotted at campgrounds or highway rest areas, possibly using the names Sam Ryan or David S. Clapp.

Skepticism about his "suicide" started almost as soon as state police determined the vehicle belonged to Israel. When no body was found beneath the 150-foot-high bridge over the Hudson River, authorities said they suspected a scam. So did investors who were hoping to get some of their money back.

"This is a very smart guy, a very crafty guy who was able to steal a lot of money from other smart people," said Ross Intelisano, an attorney for 20 investors in Israel's Bayou Group funds. "My gut tells me he's not the type to jump off a bridge."

Within a week, the search for a body was called off, and Israel was officially declared a fugitive. A "wanted" poster and other bulletins revealed his Social Security number, his bird tattoo and his aliases: Sam Ryan and David S. Clapp.

Israel's girlfriend at first told police that he left their Armonk house on June 9 to drive to prison. He'd been expected at a federal penitentiary in Massachusetts for inmates with special health care needs.

After Israel stopped on Bear Mountain Bridge, near West Point about 40 miles north of New York City, surveillance video showed a second car slowly pass his SUV and then stop. Agents were hoping to enhance the images to find out what happened next. Federal officials refused to confirm reports that the driver of the second car has been questioned.

They also won't go into detail about the search for Israel. But a former federal prosecutor said fugitives who carefully plan their getaways often left clues behind.

"You have to be very thorough, very meticulous in setting up your escape," said Lawrence Barcella Jr., who is now a defense attorney specializing in white-collar crime. "But it's hard to do that without leaving some hint, some trail, about your thought process or even your destination.

"If he went online to find out about a place, if he called there on a cell phone, they can find that out. The advances in technology and all the security upgrades since 9/11 have made it much easier to track someone down," Barcella said.

He said falsified travel documents would be available to someone with money, "but again, the government is much more sensitive to that now and much more sophisticated in the detection of that. It's much harder to leave the country now than it used to be."

Agents will also apply old-fashioned pressure, potentially including threats of prosecution, to Israel's friends and associates, as they already have to the girlfriend.

"You know what they say, `We have ways of making you talk,'" Barcella said.

Wherever he is, Israel probably won't be able to resume a life of conspicuous consumption if he wants to evade detection.

"You have to tone it down," Barcella said. "The more you spend, the easier you are to find. You also have to cut yourself off completely from your past. That means putting the people and places you love behind you.

"It takes a level of mental discipline. You can't even engage in those things that are familiar. If you love to go kayaking, you may not want to go kayaking because that's a profile the feds are going to have."

"It's a lot like witness protection," he said. "It works if you follow the rules, but people who are set in their ways sometimes can't handle the change in their lifestyle. They miss the familiarity, the comfort of what they were doing before."

Hiding out might also be complicated by Israel's medical needs. He's undergone nine back surgeries, has a pacemaker and is addicted to painkillers, according to prosecutors.

His ailments — along with 2 1/2 years of cooperating with authorities — helped him get less than the maximum 30-year sentence. Judge Colleen McMahon also granted him two months to surrender to prison after he was sentenced.

A co-defendant who also got 20 years was ordered to prison immediately. Calls to McMahon's chambers were not returned.

Another path Israel could take — if he gives up on the RV — is to settle in a country that does not have an extradition treaty with the U.S. He could also flee to a place that is ill-equipped to deal with such a case or somewhere that might welcome his money.

Jacob "Kobi" Alexander, who is accused of pocketing millions of dollars while manipulating stock options as chief executive of Comverse Technology Inc., has been living openly in Namibia with his family for two years. He is battling extradition in a slow-moving court system and funding scholarships and investing in low-income housing.

"Of course, Namibia's in the African desert," Barcella said. "It's not the Costa del Sol. On the other hand, it's not the federal penitentiary, either."

At the prison in Massachusetts, most inmates have jobs and the newer inmates generally get stuck with kitchen duty for their first 90 days. Whoever draws the breakfast shift has to get up at 4 or 4:30 a.m., while others sleep until 6.

Colautti, the prison spokesman, said he didn't know if Israel would still be coming there if he's caught.

Barcella said a tighter-security prison is more likely.

"The feds don't like it when you don't show up after they put all this time and effort into prosecuting you," he said.

_http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080620/ap_on_re_us/fugitive_executive

 

[bedower]

"The advances in technology and all the security upgrades since 9/11 have made it much easier to track someone down"

"It's much harder to leave the country now than it used to be".

These two sentences alone should be a wake-up call. They don't just apply to crooks and criminals, but to ordinary 'regular joes and janes' as well. I bet it's the same in Britain and Europe too.

See: http://sott.net/signs/forum/viewtopic.php?id=7513

'Where to move in the world to be safe?' posted by Nordic Healer

 

[pathwhisperer]

What incredible arrogance to think he could pull off this stunt. I never cease to be amazed at how stupid psychopaths consider us to be. But then, they're in front of our faces everyday, and we don't see them.

Look at his self regard. http://pathwhisperer.wordpress.com/2008/07/08/recent-news-stories-with-that-sociopathic-flavor/

I remember a faked suicide from the show Unsolved Mysteries. It involved a psychopathic husband and a corrupt non-psychopathic wife forming an "evil couple." Plan A, the crime, failed. Plan B, the defense, was failing. So the wife suggested Plan C, a faked suicide escape. However the husband neglected to tell her that he was following Plan C1, a faked suicide salted with real evidence, her body. No doubt she was very shocked -- corrupt normals generally act with loyalty and empathy within the ingroup, not so for psychopaths.

 

[webglider]

I found the title of this thread a little odd. Is the title implying that everyone named Israel will have a propensity to psychopathic behavior? [b[Or are you linking this particular individual to the state of Israel, and implying that everyone Jewish Israeli [/b] is prone to antisocial behavior?

I have no problem with writing about Samuel Isreal who deserves condemnation, censure, and punishment for his acts, but I wonder if by choosing that title you meant to suggest that everyone with the name of Isreal is fated to follow a similar course.

If so, I suggest that you do research on a large, random sample of individuals with the surname Isreal to see if there really is any way that society can predict with certainty the psychopathic tendencies of people with that name.

FWIW, here is an article from the July 3,2008 issue of TheNew York Times which describes the events that led to his capture:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/03/business/03bayou.html?ex=1372824000&en=feb86c28f8a8ab6d&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

July 3, 2008
Fund Manager Who Faked His Suicide Surrenders
By ABHA BHATTARAI and NELSON D. SCHWARTZ
Samuel Israel III tricked his investors, lied to his lawyers and misled the police. But in the end, he listened to his mother.

The fugitive former manager of the Bayou Group hedge fund, whose faked suicide on a Hudson River bridge and subsequent disappearance last month set off an international manhunt, turned himself in Wednesday morning in Southwick, Mass., just after speaking to his mother by phone.

Unlike some other notable fugitives, Mr. Israel, did not make it very far. He apparently spent the last four weeks living in a recreational vehicle at a Massachusetts campground, picking up supplies at the camp’s small store.

Shortly before he walked into the Southwick police station at 9:15 a.m., Ann R. Israel informed United States marshals that her 48-year-old son planned to surrender. A spokesman for the marshals, Dave Turner, said “it appears Mrs. Israel and other family members played an important role in Mr. Israel’s decision to face justice.”

Mr. Turner said that Mrs. Israel had been in close contact for at least several days with Ed Farrell, a deputy United States Marshal investigator with the Great Lakes Regional Fugitive Task Force in Illinois.

“The mother was concerned about her son’s welfare,” Mr. Turner said. “She indicated to Mr. Farrell that he was reaching out to her and other family members, and the advice he got seems to be that he should do the right thing and turn himself in.”

Mr. Israel, the scion of a wealthy New Orleans family, now faces several more years in jail on top of the 20-year sentence he received in April for defrauding investors out of $450 million after the collapse of his Bayou Group hedge fund.

Mr. Israel’s reappearance was as uneventful as his disappearance was dramatic.

After driving up to the police station on a Yamaha scooter, according to Paul Miles, a Southwick police officer, Mr. Israel told officers: “I am a fugitive, I was supposed to go to jail and I’d like to turn myself in.”

On June 9, his sport utility vehicle was found abandoned on the shoulder of the Bear Mountain Bridge on the Hudson River, with the words “suicide is painless” written in the dust on the hood. The words are the title of the theme song from the movie and television show “M*A*S*H.”

The car keys and a bottle of pills were still in the vehicle, but authorities quickly concluded he had faked his death.

Authorities said Mr. Israel actually abandoned his car, and then made his way to a recreational vehicle that he and his girlfriend had stashed at a rest area off Interstate 684 early that morning, after leaving their home in Armonk, N.Y. The girlfriend, Debra Ryan, has since been charged for her role in his flight.

After the faked suicide, Mr. Israel headed north and arrived later that day at Prospect Mountain Campground RV Park in Granville, Mass., where he spent much of June, according to the camp’s director, Mitch Hayes.

“He seemed like a nice guy,” Mr. Hayes said, adding that Mr. Israel went to the campground’s store every few days to buy food and cigarettes. “There was nothing suspicious about him.”

Despite a long history of back pain and other medical problems that were listed in his lawyer’s presentencing memorandum, Mr. Israel apparently managed to travel easily on his motorized scooter. He also has a pacemaker, and once battled an addiction to painkillers, according to the memorandum.

Mr. Israel signed into the campground under an alias, David Klapp, according to Mr. Hayes, and said that family members planned to visit. Mr. Israel, who is divorced, has a son and a daughter, both teenagers. Mr. Hayes did not recall seeing any visitors for him but said the campground can accommodate more than 200 families.

The police said Mr. Israel ultimately decided to surrender in Granville, Mass. But the bucolic town of 1,500 has only a part-time police department, and when Mr. Israel found the station there closed, he headed seven miles east to Southwick on his scooter.

Two former associates of Mr. Israel’s are already behind bars for their role at Bayou, whose collapse in the summer of 2005 was one of Wall Street’s most brazen frauds in recent years.

Mr. Israel’s lawyer, Lawrence S. Bader, did not return calls. However, in a memorandum to the federal judge, Colleen McMahon of Federal District Court in Manhattan, Mr. Israel and his legal team assured the court he was not a flight risk.

Officials at the marshals service said Mr. Israel decided to surrender after they had applied pressure to his friends and former associates for weeks.

Mr. Israel was kept in a cell in Southwick before being transferred to the federal courthouse in Springfield, Mass. He is scheduled to appear Thursday before Judge McMahon in Manhattan.

Mr. Israel’s surrender marks a bizarre end to a case that had captivated Wall Street, where his family is still remembered by old-timers for their long history in the commodity business.

Mr. Israel’s grandfather and namesake, Samuel Israel, helped expand what had been a New Orleans family company into ACLI International, a commodity powerhouse that was sold to Donaldson, Lufkin & Jenrette for $42 million in 1981.

Mr. Israel had long sought to live up to his family’s name, and their involvement in his surrender reflects the close links he still has with his relatives in New Orleans and elsewhere. “Ever since I can remember,” he had written in a letter to the judge, “I met people everywhere that have told me they know my family either directly or by reputation. I cheated my investors because I was afraid to admit my failure.”

Both of his brothers wrote letters to the judge seeking leniency, as did his mother.

In her letter, Mrs. Israel said she was “not exactly sure what led to the trouble Sam is in now. Perhaps he put too much trust in those around him. Perhaps it was inattention to detail — a fault Sam has had since he was young. Perhaps it was a desire to win his father’s love and admiration by becoming a huge success on Wall Street.”

Mrs. Israel, who now lives in suburban Chicago, was unavailable for comment. His father, Lawrence J. Israel, is well known for his philanthropy in New Orleans.

The resolution of the manhunt was greeted with relief by Mr. Israel’s victims. “They can’t wait to see him start serving his jail time,” said Ross Intelisano, a lawyer who represents 20 Bayou investors who had lost roughly $25 million. “He might be a criminal but at least he listened to his mother.”

Mr. Israel pleaded guilty to charges of conspiracy and fraud after losing millions of dollars and producing fake audits to hide the hedge fund’s poor results.

Unlike some other notable American fugitives, Mr. Israel did not try to flee until after he had been convicted. After his conviction, he was forced to surrender his passport.

Robert Vesco, who died last November, spent nearly four decades on the run, first in the Bahamas and Costa Rica, and later in Cuba, after he evaded charges that included securities fraud, drug trafficking and bribery.

Jacob Alexander, a former chief executive of Comverse Technology, fled to Namibia in 2006, where he is living with his wife and three children. Mr. Alexander faces charges in the United States of securities fraud, money laundering and conspiracy.

Some observers speculated that Mr. Israel had long ago left the country, but Todd Harrison, a former prosecutor who now specializes in white-collar criminal cases, says most fugitives do not go very far from home.

“There was nowhere for him to go so he had to drive around locally,” he said. “The marshals were after him as soon as he disappeared. There was no way he was going to be able to get on a plane or cross any borders, and life on the run is a hell of a lot harder than people think.”

An earlier version of this article misspelled the name of the city where the federal medical center is located. It is Ayer, Mass., not Ayers.

As Laura has pointed out, psychopaths are found in all cultures, ethnicities, races. There are members of some family members who are psychopaths and others who are not. To create a syllogism that seems to state:

Samuel Isreal's last name is Israel
Isreal is the last name of a psychopath
Therefore all people with the surnam Isreal are psychopaths

is to use faulty logic.

 

[anart]

Hi webglider, I think that Rabelais was waxing hyperbolic, as it were - he/she was not being literal in any sense. While it is completely true that not all Israeli's are psychopathic, it can be said with a high degree of certainly that the Israeli government is.

If this particular psychopath's surname was America, the title would 'work' in exactly the same way - and it would not imply that all American's are psychopathic, even though it can be said with a high degree of certainly that the American government is.

If the thread title read, "Would We Expect Less from a Man Named America?" - would you have found it as 'odd'?

 

[webglider]

If the thread title read, "Would We Expect Less from a Man Named America?" - would you have found it as 'odd'?

Yes, Anart, I would have thought it odd and I would have been alarmed as to the direction to which such statements can lead.

In fact I was considering ending my response with words to that effect.

The definition of "hyperbole", given by Dictionary.com is as follows:

hy·per·bo·le Audio Help /haɪˈpɜrbəli/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hahy-pur-buh-lee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun Rhetoric. 1. obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”

EnglishClub.com provides this definition with examples:

Hyperbole is a figure of speech that uses an exaggerated or extravagant statement to create a strong emotional response. As a figure of speech it is not intended to be taken literally. Hyperbole is frequently used for humour. Examples of hyperbole are:

They ran like greased lightning.


He's got tons of money.


Her brain is the size of a pea.


He is older than the hills.


I will die if she asks me to dance.


She is as big as an elephant!


I'm so hungry I could eat a horse.


I have told you a million times not to lie!
The media and the advertising industry often use hyperbole (which may then be described as hype or media hype).

Hyberbole differs in effect from Generalization which, according to The Nizkor Project is "Hasty Induction."

Also Known as: Fallacy of Insufficient Statistics, Fallacy of Insufficient Sample, Leaping to A Conclusion, Hasty Induction.

Description of Hasty Generalization
This fallacy is committed when a person draws a conclusion about a population based on a sample that is not large enough. It has the following form:


Sample S, which is too small, is taken from population P.
Conclusion C is drawn about Population P based on S.
The person committing the fallacy is misusing the following type of reasoning, which is known variously as Inductive Generalization, Generalization, and Statistical Generalization:


X% of all observed A's are B''s.
Therefore X% of all A's are Bs.
The fallacy is committed when not enough A's are observed to warrant the conclusion. If enough A's are observed then the reasoning is not fallacious.

Small samples will tend to be unrepresentative. As a blatant case, asking one person what she thinks about gun control would clearly not provide an adequate sized sample for determing what Canadians in general think about the issue. The general idea is that small samples are less likely to contain numbers proportional to the whole population. For example, if a bucket contains blue, red, green and orange marbles, then a sample of three marbles cannot possible be representative of the whole population of marbles. As the sample size of marbles increases the more likely it becomes that marbles of each color will be selected in proprtion to their numbers in the whole population. The same holds true for things others than marbles, such as people and their political views.

Since Hasty Generalization is committed when the sample (the observed instances) is too small, it is important to have samples that are large enough when making a generalization. The most reliable way to do this is to take as large a sample as is practical. There are no fixed numbers as to what counts as being large enough. If the population in question is not very diverse (a population of cloned mice, for example) then a very small sample would suffice. If the population is very diverse (people, for example) then a fairly large sample would be needed. The size of the sample also depends on the size of the population. Obviously, a very small population will not support a huge sample. Finally, the required size will depend on the purpose of the sample. If Bill wants to know what Joe and Jane think about gun control, then a sample consisting of Bill and Jane would (obviously) be large enough. If Bill wants to know what most Australians think about gun control, then a sample consisting of Bill and Jane would be far too small.

People often commit Hasty Generalizations because of bias or prejudice. For example, someone who is a sexist might conclude that all women are unfit to fly jet fighters because one woman crashed one. People also commonly commit Hasty Generalizations because of laziness or sloppiness. It is very easy to simply leap to a conclusion and much harder to gather an adequate sample and draw a justified conclusion. Thus, avoiding this fallacy requires minimizing the influence of bias and taking care to select a sample that is large enough.

One final point: a Hasty Generalization, like any fallacy, might have a true conclusion. However, as long as the reasoning is fallacious there is no reason to accept the conclusion based on that reasoning.

Examples of Hasty Generalization

Smith, who is from England, decides to attend graduate school at Ohio State University. He has never been to the US before. The day after he arrives, he is walking back from an orientation session and sees two white (albino) squirrels chasing each other around a tree. In his next letter home, he tells his family that American squirrels are white.

Sam is riding her bike in her home town in Maine, minding her own business. A station wagon comes up behind her and the driver starts beeping his horn and then tries to force her off the road. As he goes by, the driver yells "get on the sidewalk where you belong!" Sam sees that the car has Ohio plates and concludes that all Ohio drivers are jerks.

Bill: "You know, those feminists all hate men."
Joe: "Really?"
Bill: "Yeah. I was in my philosophy class the other day and that Rachel chick gave a presentation."
Joe: "Which Rachel?"
Bill: "You know her. She's the one that runs that feminist group over at the Women's Center. She said that men are all sexist pigs. I asked her why she believed this and she said that her last few boyfriends were real sexist pigs. "
Joe: "That doesn't sound like a good reason to believe that all of us are pigs."
Bill: "That was what I said."
Joe: "What did she say?"
Bill: "She said that she had seen enough of men to know we are all pigs. She obviously hates all men."
Joe: "So you think all feminists are like her?"
Bill: "Sure. They all hate men."

Among the differences between hyperbole and generalization are those of tone, effect and impact.

Hyperbole tends to be silly and ridiculous. Due to its use of improbable exaggeration, it is highly unlikely that most people would take it literally.

Generalization is more insidious as it is characterized by conclusions based on insufficient evidence which may mislead others to mistake them for fact.

 

[anart]

webglider, I take it from the 'definitions' you've provided, that you think Rabelais' statement is a generalization and not hyperbolic? You never really come out and say that, however, and your definitions really don't make such a designation clear either. In short, you seem to be engaged in legalistic nitpicking, to prove yourself 'right'.

You say it comes down to 'tone' - yet don't seem to consider that the tone you are reading into the title of this thread is not necessarily the tone with which it was written.

Quite an interesting reaction, all in all - wonder what is really at the root of it? The 'effect and impact' is an interesting thing as well - 'effect and impact' on whom, you? Since you've read a tone that may not exist into the title, the 'effect and impact' on you is also wholly created by you. And why the use of the word 'alarmed' - can you consider that your reaction to this is a bit out of proportion to the situation?

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

I found the title of this thread a little odd. Is the title implying that everyone named Israel will have a propensity to psychopathic behavior?

I highly doubt that was implied, as that would be far more than just "a little odd". It would be jaw-droppingly insane, like suspecting that the reason a guy named Matt likes to lie down a lot is because his name is Matt (short version of mattress). It would be funny to say "Well, what would you expect from a guy named Matt?". But beyond humor, I think that you'd have to either be less than 2 years old or have been repeatedly hit very hard with a blunt object in the past to seriously make such a generalization with a straight face. In light of that, I think your concern about this is very unreasonable. As far as generalizations go, this one would be SO wrong it would be "not even wrong".

 

[webglider]

You never really come out and say that, however, and your definitions really don't make such a designation clear either. In short, you seem to be engaged in legalistic nitpicking, to prove yourself 'right'.

No, Anart, I disagree with you there. Even if Rabelais' intentions were not to generalize, that is exactly what he or she has done.

Taking one example of behavior and applying it to an entire group is a generalization.

Taking a surname, and posing the rhetorical question of "What else do you expect of someone by this surname?" is directing the reader or listener to accept a conclusion that the poser of the question has deliberately led them to make.

Here is a list of intentions that may be behind the situation from which the asking of a rhetorical question arises:

What is the rhetorical situation?
What occasion gives rise to the need or opportunity for persuasion?
What is the historical occasion that would give rise to the composition of this text?
Who is the author/speaker?
How does he or she establish ethos (personal credibility)?
Does he/she come across as knowledgeable? fair?
Does the speaker's reputation convey a certain authority?
What is his/her intention in speaking?
To attack or defend?
To exhort or dissuade from certain action?
To praise or blame?
To teach, to delight, or to persuade?
Who make up the audience?
Who is the intended audience?
What values does the audience hold that the author or speaker appeals to?
Who have been or might be secondary audiences?
If this is a work of fiction, what is the nature of the audience within the fiction?
What is the content of the message?
Can you summarize the main idea? 'b]
What are the principal lines of reasoning or kinds of arguments used?
What topics of invention are employed?
How does the author or speaker appeal to reason? to emotion?
What is the form in which it is conveyed?
What is the structure of the communication; how is it arranged?
What oral or literary genre is it following?
What figures of speech (schemes and tropes) are used?
What kind of style and tone is used and for what purpose?
How do form and content correspond?
Does the form complement the content?
What effect could the form have, and does this aid or hinder the author's intention?
Does the message/speech/text succeed in fulfilling the author's or speaker's intentions?
For whom?
Does the author/speaker effectively fit his/her message to the circumstances, times, and audience?
Can you identify the responses of historical or contemporary audiences?
What does the nature of the communication reveal about the culture that produced it?
What kinds of values or customs would the people have that would produce this?
How do the allusions, historical references, or kinds of words used place this in a certain time and location?

I'll give you another example. If a teacher had an African American student in her class whose last name was Black, and if this student proved to be difficult,and received poor grades would the teacher not be prejudiced if she asked, "What else can you expect of a student whose name is Black?"

If the parent of the above hypothetical student heard about the teacher's remark would he/she not be offended by the racist implications inherent in it? If other African American parents became cognizant of this remark, would they not feel uncomfortable if their children were being instructed in this teacher's class?

Notice how I used the rhetorical device of the rhetorical question to make my points in the above scenario and to lead the reader to agreeing with my conclusions?

Unfortunately, grammar is barely taught in the United States today, and rhetoric is not even even a blip on the radar. This lack of language skills and sophistication is unfortunately why so many people are manipulated without knowing how they are being manipulated.

You say it comes down to 'tone' - yet don't seem to consider that the tone you are reading into the title of this thread is not necessarily the tone with which it was written.

I would concede that perhaps Rabelais was unaware that by choosing the rhetorical question, and using generalization that he/she was creating a certain tone and effect,

Rhetoric has always been one of the principal tools that the ruling classes use to rule the masses. They know exactly what effect they are creating when they choose a particular rhetorical device or trope. You can go to this site to get a sense of the scope of the science of rhetoric and its uses and effects.

_http://humanities.byu.edu/rhetoric/Silva.htm

Quite an interesting reaction, all in all - wonder what is really at the root of it? The 'effect and impact' is an interesting thing as well - 'effect and impact' on whom, you? Since you've read a tone that may not exist into the title, the 'effect and impact' on you is also wholly created by you. And why the use of the word 'alarmed' - can you consider that your reaction to this is a bit out of proportion to the situation?

The "root" of my reaction is that a knowledge of rhetoric and the nefarious ways it is often used have caused me to be a very careful reader.

The "effect and impact" of rhetorical devices are programmed into their structure to have a particular effect on an audience.

Perhaps my knowledge of the uses language can be in service of has led me to be hypervigilent. Since much of the message is prepackaged in the form the words take, I am particularly sensitive to form.

 

[anart]

Sheesh, webglider - that is an amazing amount of energy to put into something that does not warrant it. I, and most readers of this forum, are well aware of rhetoric - what it is, how it is used and its effect. So, what is really going on here? Is it simply a 'need to be right at any cost' program running or was an 'anti-semetic' program triggered - or????

You are currently jousting at windmills that don't even exist as windmills, much less anything else. You also seem wholly incapable of understanding that YOU are creating the 'tone' in your mind, and thus the effect, not Rabelais.

It might help you to remember the Rule of 3 - there is right and there is wrong and there is the specific situation that determines which is which.

In the context of this forum - in the context of all of Rabelais' past posts - in the context of this specific situation - you are mistaken - pure and simple (barring, of course, a statement from Rabelais to the contrary). And your legalistic thinking and the amount of energy you're putting into 'debating and proving your point' is rather astounding, to say the least.

 

[Chang]

Anart,

Sorry to bother you, but I am lost (again).

Many months ago, I read an article about Psychopaths, and it referred to a 'trait' that they exhibited, or perhaps it was method they used to get them something, I think the word started with an "M", but who knows. I thought I would be able to view all my posts and/or replys, but I was unable to do so. Do you, or anyone else have any suggestions?

Thanks For Your Time!

Chang

P.S. It was weird that I came here looking for help with my neighbor the Psychopath,
and the top headline was about Psychopaths!
The guy is driving me nuts, and I have no where to turn. I've written to the State Attorney General twice, but they could care less. I guess someone has to be killed before it draws any interest. Oh well...

Moderators note: Fixed exaggerated title.

 

[anart]

Hi Chang, I looked through your posts and I think this might be the one you're looking for?
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,11809.msg228207.html#msg228207

Not sure if that will help, but hopefully it's what you were thinking about.

 

[Chang]

Anart,

Thanks very much for your time, I appreciate it!

Just one more question, is there a way for me to look thru all of my post?

Thanks Again!!!

Chang

 

[Jacques]

Anart,

Thanks very much for your time, I appreciate it!

Just one more question, is there a way for me to look thru all of my post?

Thanks Again!!!

Chang

Click on "Profile" at the top of the page.

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?action=profile

And then select "Show Posts"

 

[anart]

Click on "Profile" at the top of the page.

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?action=profile

And then select "Show Posts"

Chang may not be able to do that until he has 50 posts?