Great interview by Tucker with a so-called top advisor of Putin (Serge Sergey Carnogov)
Apologies for the timestamps, they're from the transcript of the video.
May be useful if you want to watch the video at certain moments according to the timestamps.
Mr. Caragonov, thank you very much for joining us. Um, But h how do you believe this war
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will end? Uh this war uh uh could and should uh be
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ended not only uh when Russia uh achieves uh
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total defeat of Europe hopefully without eliminating Europe. We are fighting not
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Ukraine not the like. Uh we are fighting again uh the uh Europe which has been
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the uh uh source of all ills and all uh
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uh sources of evil in the history of humanity of two world wars. He the EU
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has been several times uh invading us. uh uh last time it was for openly in the
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uh 41 45 when 90% 95% of European countries uh went uh came here under the
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under the banners of Hitler. Now unbelievably after uh all their defeats
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they haven't learned the question the the lesson they still uh uh uh pushing
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for a big war I think I mean the reason is obviously that this total failure of
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u modern European elites but uh so when we talk about the end of
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this war it's not about I mean uh doing away with
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uh uh war in Ukraine with the source of this war. Uh and that is uh the evil uh
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Europe which by the way sucked United States several times into war
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and which uh have been the source of the worst things in the history of humanity
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including of course uh world wars including racism, colonism
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uh and many other uh good bad things including now the uh They have been the
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main source of the posthuman values to the Jewish. They have been exporting. I
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mean they partly polluted United States. So now we are
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fighting there. They try to pollute them that with the I'm not speaking about all
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Europe. I mean there are many decent people and even good countries there. But the question is that Europe is
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returning back to where it used to be during the last 500 years and that is
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the source of all all evil in the in the history of humanity.
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So what what does it look like to defeat Europe? The war can't end until Russia defeats Europe. You said what does that
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mean? For the time being, we we are thinking about a peacemal deal about a
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Narcissist which has been offered uh
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uh by President Trump in good faith over again until uh the will of European
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elites uh is not to continue confrontation
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for the sake of uh saving uh themselves
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from uh uh uh uh from the all
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uh or covering up for the all mistakes they have done. Uh that war will not uh
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stop. Uh so uh I'm relatively skeptical as to
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the uh short time possibilities of a peace meal deal. However, of course, if
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we achieve something along the road and people will start stop to to be killed,
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well, the opportunity should be used. But I'm pretty sure that uh their
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problem is much deeper and it is not Ukraine. It is not the landscape and whomever uh it is that Europe is again
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returning to its worst. uh and that is that is the the source of
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all of of all all evil in the history of humanity. So why do you think I mean I think from
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an American perspective it's very obvious that European leaders are focused on Russia in the in the big
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countries Germany France Great Britain the leadership of all three countries is focused on Russia as the threat.
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Why do you think that is? No, it is very simple. I mean, uh I'm a
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founder of Institute of Europe and I used to be a Europile 40 years ago and
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then I learned them better and I became highly skeptical. They are complete
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failures on all counts. I mean moral, political, economic, etc. Europe is
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going down. Uh also uh they are unable now
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to exploit uh uh the world and to suck uh the rent from the world which you
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they have been getting uh due to uh their military preponderance over last
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500 years and that was stopped in the 60s and 70s but uh and they got into a
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deep crisis already. uh but at that time I mean for all kind of reasons 17
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collapses uh and uh they believe that uh their golden age would continue but now
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they understand that this golden age is finished and they are desperate.
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They understand that they could not uh live on others uh money. Uh uh leave uh uh also they
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start to understand that they could not uh live on the cushion of uh US protection
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because US is tired of them and they don't need it uh anymore. So uh there's
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a total desperation of this uh layer of globalist
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quote unquote liberal European elites. Also there by the way
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process of antimeritocracy. I mean never in history of Europe have
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we had uh such a low level of intellectual uh capacities in the leadership of most
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European countries. Not all but almost.
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So Europe is basically out of gas. It's out of it's out of energy. It's dying.
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And so you you're arguing that their leadership sees a defeat of Russia as
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the only way back uh continuation. They at first they thought of of a
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possibility of a defeat uh of Russia which was I mean a kind of a
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fantastic collusion then but still some people because of their uh their
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intellectual quote unquote incapacity or they talking about that but what is
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defeat of Russia just if if Russia comes ever close to a defeat that would mean
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that Russia now would use nuclear weapons and the Europe will be finished physically. So I mean it's simply
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impossible even to think about it but they have been talking because they need
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a war to rationalize their stay in power
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to rationalize their existence and uh
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it is not about even defeat of Russia now it is simply uh keeping on uh with
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the uh uh uh uh with the failing
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European Union, with a failing economy, uh with uh fading uh European uh
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positions in the world, everybody in the world now laughs at Europe, which used
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to be by the way one of the core uh centers of world power
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and now it's a joke. And of course, I'm not speaking of all Europe. We know that there are decent Europeans, there are
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smart Europeans. Though in my class, political class of European thinkers and
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you are on foreign policy and defense, etc., etc. There's only one or two men
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or persons left. I wouldn't name them because that would jeopardize
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them in the night of the audience. But nobody else. I do not have any
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interlocutor almost any interlocutor in Europe anymore.
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When you say um everyone knows that the Russian government if pressed would use
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nuclear weapons against Europe. Uh do you mean that is my question and do you
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think that the Europeans understand that? Europeans because they have been uh uh
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first of all intellectually degrading after the 1968
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uh so-called student revolution which killed most of European education
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and uh because of anti-marriito meritocracy of modern uh European
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democratic system uh do not understand who are unable uh to understand what is
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happening fully and also they are entertaining what I call strategic parasit
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paracism parasitism I don't know how to call it they believe that war will never
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come to their territory they forgot about the war and that it's terrible
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because they have been their source of most wars in the history of humanity but
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now they are not afraid. So the now uh one of the uh tasks of Russia in
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addition to all others uh is uh to
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bring them to sensus uh uh hopefully without using nuclear weapons only with
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the threat of their use. And I'm criticizing my government of being uh too prudent and
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uh too patient with them. But uh sooner or later, if they continue to support
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this war, sacrificing numerous of the Ukrainians
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and others, uh the Russian uh um pleary
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perseverance uh will uh will go through and we will
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have uh to uh punish them severely.
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hopefully in a limited sense. It's um it's interesting that you say
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their leaders no longer fear nuclear weapons. You would think everyone would fear nuclear weapons given their
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destructive capacity. Wh why would any person not fear the threat of a nuclear
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attack? Uh because uh uh well let's put this we
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uh uh uh we believe that they are like us
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uh but uh they're not like us. They have have had a total degradation of thinking
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class and and of of the ruling class. I mean when a chancellor of quote unquote
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of Germany is talking about I mean recreating a Buddhist fairer uh to be
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the strongest army in Europe, what does that mean? that means that he
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uh dooms his country for elimination. I have uh been talking with Europeans
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through all most of my adult life. I stopped doing that in 1930 when there
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was a meeting of European leaders in which I participated and I said that if you continue into this uh your system uh
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uh there will be a big war and millions of Ukrainians will die and nobody dared
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to look into my eyes. There were 70 or 80 people most of them you know
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they have degraded to the level uh that uh they are dangerous idiots or moral
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idiots. Yes, most not all of them but most of them.
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You you are quoted in one place saying they no longer fear God therefore they
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no longer fear war. How are those two related? Absolutely. I mean they lost well not
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all. Again we were normal people they uh I mean Europe has lost uh its
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core moral political spiritual core
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uh and uh now they uh as you know and most of them have lost
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uh the fear uh well the trust in God
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doesn't mean and uh they uh lost normal
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losing uh most of uh their uh traits of the human uh uh Europe is
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under this leadership or under this leadership is becoming anti-European in
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terms of historical European and even anti antihuman
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they have brought nism which was not a human uh etc. Now they
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are they have brought to us you have been infected with to less extent
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something absolutely antihuman uh loss of respect those family those love
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between men and women those respect for seniors uh those patriotism etc. What is
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then Europe and of course uh trusting God? What is left? I mean it is uh uh
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and uh uh it is uh
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a a moral hope. However, of course, I'm
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not speaking about all Europeans or are normal people. Uh however of course I'm not I'm not unable to talk to them. I am
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not able to talk to them because they are imagine they are forbidden to talk
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to us and if they talk to us they are then called uh and summoned to the
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police or security services. So I have a lot of still still probably a lot of
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friends in Europe but I do not have any contacts with them because they are banned
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because they elites from talking to us because they elites are uh they're
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preparing uh them for uh war at least morally though
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these the same elites uh could not comprehend that if war a real big war
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is unleashed in Europe and a war soon or later this war in Ukraine which we are
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waging with Europeans uh escalates a little bit of Europe uh
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thanks god we have changed our nuclear doctrine recently and recently our president said
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uh he was very cautious and very pol he's a very cautious and very polite man but he said something very important he
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said that if you continues and if Europe uh gets into real direct conflict with
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Europe, there will be nobody in Europe to talk. But I hope and I beg and I pray
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the way I pray that uh he or us wouldn't have to make this decision.
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But uh uh as I've said before, Europe is
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the source of the most evils and returns to its worst times.
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Twice in the past roughly the past year um the Ukrainians have tried to at least
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twice tried to kill your president, President Putin. What that's my read of it. Um
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why do you think they did that? What's the thinking there? Well,
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it is it is very simple. I mean uh they're belligerent. I mean uh some
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people uh believe that you could solve the problem of Russia by killing our
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president. Our president is u um
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uh I have one problem with our president is that he's too cautious.
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They do not uh to cautious and he shows too much perseverance. I am criticizing
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him indirectly or sometimes even directly as as in our conversation with
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you. Uh but uh uh they simply uh want
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they of course they could not kill it's simply noble hatred uh of uh people now
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who have lost their minds. Uh well the the question of course of
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not doing away with the foreign countries is a American question uh as
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as you know and uh but uh uh they are pumping up uh hatred towards Russia like
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mad even I'm a partly historian I must say that even Hitler's Germany uh the
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level of anti-Russian propaganda and the rosophobia uh was uh maybe may maybe weaker or at
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least equal to what is uh happening in Europe.
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What would happen if your president were to be assassinated by the Ukrainians or
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Europe or the United States? What what would what would be the next Well, let's hope let's hope that would
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not happen. Uh but then of course um uh
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That that would mean that we will punish
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uh hopefully not the United States
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but Europe will be taken away from the map of the humanity. It should be uh pushed
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away uh from the geopolitical and uh geostrategic math because it is a
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nuisance. I hope it would not be uh punished in the physical way. though I
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am starting to say that these idiots do not understand anything but physical
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pain and that's no later we have uh to go
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after the ladder and escalation and if they do not stop this senseless war and
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hostility in uh in and around Ukraine.
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Now we would have to start to attack Europe with conventional weapons and then next step will be waves of uh
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nuclear uh nuclear uh strikes. I hope we wouldn't
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uh reach that point because using nuclear weapons any weapon is a
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sin but using nuclear weapons is a double sin and I don't want to be Russia
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to be that big a sinner we have all all our
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sins I but uh if needed we have to eliminate the European threat to
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humanity How how far are we from Russia using nuclear weapons against Europe?
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Uh two years if they do well one year. Well, first of
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all, I've been calling on uh my uh government to escalate earlier
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and but uh President Putin is uh uh very religious and he's cautious and
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uh uh we have been climbing up the ladder of escalation changing our nuclear doctrine and lowering the
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nuclear threshold uh building up our nuclear potential in Europe and else but
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in the hope that we could stop them before crossing uh the threshold. As
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I've said uh I think that Putin believes that using uh nuclear
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weapons and I believe by the way uh is a sin but might be it might be a necessary
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sin in order to save humanity. That's why I have been calling for limited nuclear use of nuclear weapons against
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Europe because otherwise the world would drift into a third world war uh towards
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which uh Europeans are pushing all of us. I mean they have already done that twice
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in history sucking in the United States. You a couple of times saved them you
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Americans. Now we uh once suffered but then saved
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them again. But now they back and uh with the old game and we have to uh
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either to punish them or to help them to uh uh change their minds. uh it is not
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I'm not calling for regime change but if Europeans do not change uh these elites
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for more uh national oriented
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for more responsible uh they are doomed and I I
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hate this idea because culturally I'm a European of course who I we are moving
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towards Siberia moving towards east we are uh saying and sincerely that we are
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becoming uh a Eurasian nation or returning back to where we belong to
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become uh the Eurasian nation. Uh but the loss of Europe would be a bit.
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Um before I ask you about what you think Russia should do relative to the rest of
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the world, become Eurasian rather than European, um which it seems to be doing. Um,
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if there were nuclear strikes from Russia into Europe in the next year or two, as you said, there may be, what
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countries uh would that include?
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Well, we are uh uh online. So uh uh I
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have written that uh uh several times that if we strike uh pause uh uh
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uh uh Americans would never respond. Americans would never respond anyway. Uh
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but if we uh but and I hope the pools are becoming by the way more sensible.
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They understand that they uh that they are playing with fire. They trying to
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retreat from the front lines of this conflict. Uh but uh my choice would be
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Britain and Germany. You'd take out Britain and Germany with
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nuclear weapons. I beg I beg our almighty that wouldn't
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happen. Yes. But Germany would be should be the first because
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Germany is the source of the worst in in the
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European history. But I hope again I have many German friends. I hope that it
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would you've I think just came back from
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Beijing. Certainly the ties between Russia and China are uh much much deeper than they were four years ago. From an
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American perspective, the idea of a permanent Russia China alliance is a threat to our our future
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it would seem. Is that alliance permanent?
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uh well for the time being uh for the foreseeable future
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uh it is a source of great strength both to Russia and to China and our Chinese
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friends understand that and but
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um what will happen in 10 to 15 years we we do not know so planning for kind of
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futures but our best uh solution
1:17:48
uh is uh to reach a world where four great powers uh will be uh working
1:17:55
together uh for defining I mean the rules of
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behavior in uh the future world these four powers are uh China, Russia, United
1:18:08
States and India and uh and uh uh that kind of confederation configuration also
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means that uh we will and We should and we will of course balance uh the overall
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preponderance of China va Russia but at this juncture China is
1:18:31
a fantastic asset. It is not a threat but just in case uh we should uh create
1:18:39
this at least four country system uh plus we are building the what we call
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greater uratia and that is a system of relationship where uh China uh will be balanced uh by
1:18:56
major powers within Eurasia including India uh Persia,
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uh Turkey and Russia and others. Uh so and the but the Chinese I mean we talked
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with them sincerely about necessity to balance them. Uh they it is hard for
1:19:17
them to uh solve that but they're starting to understand that it is in their interest
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to create a balanced system of relationship within Eurasia.
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But worldwide uh United States should be a key player because without United
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States uh we will not succeed in dealing with the unbelievable problems we are
1:19:41
facing in the coming years. Does um Russia jeopardize its soul by
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leaving the west given that it's a orthodox country? Its cultural legacy is
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own. We are saving our soul. Uh I mean, of
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course, some of my compatriots would not agree with me, but uh let us remind you
1:20:08
and me and others that our soul uh came from the east and from the south. We
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took Christianity from Palestine. uh
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and uh who the Orthodox Church is the true Christianity because Catholics left
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uh at the beginning of the previous uh
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millennium we parted with them but still of course we're Christians
1:20:40
and we're brothers uh we are very much an Islamic country 20% of our
1:20:48
population will also take it from uh from the south. Uh then uh we have a
1:20:55
strong Buddhist population. We also take it from the southeast. And Judaism is
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also here an acknowledged region. And the political system uh which we have
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built over years we have inherited uh from their greatest empire of them all
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from Chenisan Empire. But of course in many Russia would would disagree
1:21:22
now with me but it is simple truth. We are Asian empire with with a very strong
1:21:32
uh European cultural influence which we love and
1:21:37
adore and we we would never uh pass. Uh but we are not Asia. We're
1:21:46
not European. Thanks God. And we are now starting to acknowledge that because our
1:21:52
European journey uh has been to which Peter the Great started for because of
1:22:01
certain reasons because we were we backward in technological terms. It's
1:22:07
over. It should have been over 150 years ago. Uh we uh uh he would have saved us
1:22:16
from many troubles including uh things like world wars, communism etc. Now but
1:22:23
now we have we're partying uh but hopefully keeping uh the traits of
1:22:31
European cultural heritage which we share with you uh in our hearts and our minds. What effect from your perspective
1:22:40
have western sanctions had on Russia? Do you believe sanctions hurt Russia
1:22:46
or helped? Uh oh yes. I mean uh we invited I mean I have been calling for confrontation with
1:22:53
with the west long before we uh stopping stopping I mean the expansion
1:22:59
of NATO etc. long before we decided. Now of course I mean economically wise
1:23:07
it they hurt but strategically wise, political wise, cultural wise they have
1:23:13
been a blessing. We have with with the help we have we invited fire uh
1:23:20
unfriendly fire on our own. We have done away with comprador elites. Uh we have
1:23:26
thrown away without any repressions uh the fifth column. uh we are returning uh
1:23:33
back uh our Russian culture, our Russian soul. We uh we're becoming Russians and
1:23:40
uh the only problem with this uh sanctions and with this war is that we have to pay
1:23:48
for it with the lives of our best men. But other than that, it has been a they
1:23:54
have been a blessing and I do not want them uh to be uh uh lifted.
1:24:03
Of course, someone should be so relationship and be some additional
1:24:09
money. But Russia uh which is uh
1:24:15
threatened uh is uh uh is again a warfighting
1:24:22
nation. We are a nation of warriors and when we started to be attacked even
1:24:29
indirectly now directly then we return to our best and that's why the country
1:24:34
is is experienced unbelievable releases. The only problem is that we're losing
1:24:42
best man that should be stopped. And so, and that leads to my uh last
1:24:48
question, Mr. Caronov, which is you've described this as as as a war, a
1:24:54
civilizational war between Russia and Europe. What role does the United States, our
1:25:01
administration, our president play in ending it? What can President Trump do to end the war? Well, I mean, Americans
1:25:08
were very crucial in starting this war because the uh the whole problem started
1:25:14
in early 2000s when uh American administration
1:25:20
uh started to pedal uh to prop up the uh
1:25:25
European issue because they were afraid of uh possibility of building a
1:25:31
continental alliance between uh Russia and Germany. Uh so in a way Americans
1:25:38
are also the source have been a source of the problem. As to the uh Trump
1:25:43
administration offer I didn't like the uh the offer which Mr. Trump offered
1:25:51
because it doesn't solve the real problem and the real problem is
1:25:56
uh European hostility, European aggression. uh but for the time being we should use
1:26:02
this opportunity if possible. Uh and then uh uh of course we all know
1:26:10
that President Trump uh is curtail his
1:26:16
internal affairs and also now we see that his offers are deluded and uh by
1:26:24
all kind of efforts from within and by his quote unquote uh allies. Uh but if
1:26:33
we but we could try him uh for a while with his offer maybe
1:26:41
eventually we would end up with the uh solution of the problem. Uh and that is solution of
1:26:48
the problem is of course as I've said uh is Europe. Uh however uh I do not
1:26:57
foresee that unfortunately that possibility. So even if we stop this war, we should be prepared
1:27:04
when the war zoos are to do away with the source of this war and that is
1:27:12
uh hostility of European elites
1:27:18
and their willingness to uh fuel uh warfare on the European uh subcontinent.
1:27:27
But let's give ch a chance. Although I'm not sure whether
1:27:34
he or we could succeed under the circumstances.
1:27:39
You know the internal situation in United States better. And also by the way we could not rely uh with all our
1:27:48
respect to your president on him. he has a country behind him uh which is deeply
1:27:55
divided. Uh he he has a huge opposition
1:28:00
and then he's also uh playing full
1:28:06
games. uh and so I don't think I hope we could arrange something
1:28:13
but uh we are watching very carefully the fact
1:28:19
that presidential administration has abducted the leader of a big country.
1:28:27
Uh we are watching very carefully that uh American
1:28:33
uh marines uh acting like pirates on high seas uh
1:28:40
seizing tankers uh wearing Russian flags, Russian panners.
1:28:46
Uh if uh that continues we will have uh to uh
1:28:53
go back to rough deterrence but we would like to have uh uh if not cordial but
1:29:02
good relationship with the United States and with other uh uh two great countries
1:29:10
in the world. But we'll see whether uh he he could deliver. I think he wants to
1:29:16
deliver but whether he's able is a big question. So we keep our
1:29:22
fingers crossed and uh let's give us babys sure. We hope
1:29:30
that he is sincere but we do not trust
1:29:35
uh American policies and to certain extent his proposals look like a honey
1:29:43
trap uh because uh nothing happens
1:29:49
continue the war talking about peace peace peace peace I
1:29:55
mean referring to a who knows whom Zalinski or other
1:30:01
pigments in in Europe who are blocking it and uh it seems that this war
1:30:08
is continuing and maybe United States in the end do not want to
1:30:13
finish this war. So then we'll have to uh
1:30:19
come back to the the solution which I have mentioned several times and that is
1:30:27
of starting to punish our uh European
1:30:32
enemies uh with an understanding hopefully that
1:30:39
uh United States would and knowing that they would refer
1:30:44
refrain from uh participating in a nuclear war in Europe.
1:30:52
I I think it's important for um American policy makers and the and the American
uh citizenry, the country to understand uh the Russian perspective and I I'm grateful that you gave it to us, Mr.
Caronov. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you. It was a pleasure. Thank you for me, too.
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Mr. Karaganov, thank you very much for joining us. How do you believe this war will end?
This war could and should be ended not only when Russia achieves the total defeat of Europe—hopefully without eliminating Europe. We are fighting not Ukraine, but Europe, which has been the source of all ills and all sources of evil in the history of humanity, including the two world wars. The EU—or rather, Europe—has invaded us several times. The last time was openly in 1941–1945, when 90–95% of European countries came here under the banners of Hitler. Now, unbelievably, after all their defeats, they still haven’t learned the lesson. They are pushing for a big war.
The reason is the total failure of modern European elites. When we talk about the end of this war, it’s not just about ending the fighting in Ukraine. The source of this war is the evil Europe, which has sucked the United States into wars several times and has been the source of the worst things in human history—including world wars, racism, colonialism, and many other ills. Now they are the main source of posthuman values, which they have partly exported to pollute the United States as well.
I’m not speaking about all of Europe—there are many decent people and even good countries there—but Europe is returning to where it used to be during the last 500 years: the source of all evil in the history of humanity.
So what does it look like to defeat Europe? The war can’t end until Russia defeats Europe.
For the time being, we are thinking about a peace deal of the kind that has been offered by President Trump in good faith. But as long as the will of European elites is to continue confrontation—for the sake of saving themselves or covering up all their mistakes—the war will not stop. I’m relatively skeptical about the short-term possibilities of a peace deal. Of course, if we achieve something along the way and people stop being killed, the opportunity should be used. But I’m pretty sure their problem is much deeper. It is not Ukraine. It is Europe returning to its worst traditions, and that is the source of all evil in human history.
From an American perspective, it’s obvious that European leaders—in the big countries like Germany, France, and Great Britain—are focused on Russia as the threat. Why do you think that is?
It is very simple. I’m the founder of the Institute of Europe and I used to be a Europhile 40 years ago. Then I learned them better and became highly skeptical. They are complete failures on all counts—moral, political, economic, and so on. Europe is going down. They are no longer able to exploit the world and extract rent from it due to their military preponderance, which lasted for the last 500 years but stopped in the 1960s and 1970s. They got into a deep crisis already back then, but they believed their golden age would continue. Now they understand that it is finished, and they are desperate.
They can no longer live on other people’s money. They also understand they can no longer live on the cushion of U.S. protection, because the United States is tired of them and doesn’t need it anymore. There is total desperation among this layer of globalist “liberal” European elites. There is also a process of anti-meritocracy: never in the history of Europe have we had such a low level of intellectual capacity in the leadership of most European countries.
Europe is basically out of gas. It’s out of energy. It’s dying.
You’re arguing that their leadership sees a defeat of Russia as the only way to continue?
At first they thought of the possibility of defeating Russia, which was a fantastic delusion, but some people still talked about it because of their intellectual incapacity. But what is the defeat of Russia? If Russia ever comes close to defeat, it would mean Russia would use nuclear weapons, and Europe would be finished physically. It is simply impossible even to think about it. Yet they talk about it because they need a war to rationalize their stay in power, to rationalize their existence.
It is not even about defeating Russia now. It is about keeping the failing European Union alive, with its failing economy and fading positions in the world. Everybody in the world now laughs at Europe, which used to be one of the core centers of world power and is now a joke.
Of course, I’m not speaking about all Europeans. There are decent and smart Europeans. But in the political class dealing with foreign policy and defense, there are only one or two people left worth talking to. I wouldn’t name them because that would jeopardize them. I have almost no interlocutors in Europe anymore.
When you say everyone knows that the Russian government, if pressed, would use nuclear weapons against Europe—do the Europeans understand that?
Europeans, because of intellectual degradation after the 1968 student revolution—which killed most of European education—and because of the anti-meritocracy of modern European democratic systems, are unable to fully understand what is happening. They also entertain what I call strategic parasitism: they believe war will never come to their territory. They have forgotten how terrible war is, even though they have been the source of most wars in human history. Now they are not afraid.
One of Russia’s tasks—in addition to all others—is to bring them to their senses, hopefully without using nuclear weapons, only with the threat of their use. I criticize my government for being too prudent and too patient with them. But sooner or later, if they continue to support this war—sacrificing numerous Ukrainians and others—Russian perseverance will prevail, and we will have to punish them severely, hopefully in a limited sense.
Their leaders no longer fear nuclear weapons. You would think everyone would fear them given their destructive capacity. Why would any person not fear the threat of a nuclear attack?
Because they are not like us. They have had a total degradation of the thinking class and the ruling class. When the chancellor of Germany talks about recreating a “Bundeswehr” to be the strongest army in Europe, what does that mean? It means he dooms his country to elimination.
I have been talking with Europeans most of my adult life. I stopped in 2013 at a meeting of European leaders where I said that if they continued with their system, there would be a big war and millions of Ukrainians would die. Nobody dared look me in the eyes. There were 70 or 80 people, most of whom I knew. They have degraded to the level of dangerous idiots—or moral idiots. Most of them, not all.
You are quoted as saying they no longer fear God, therefore they no longer fear war. How are those two related?
Absolutely. Europe has lost its core moral, political, and spiritual foundation. Most have lost trust in God. They have lost normal human traits. Under this leadership, Europe is becoming anti-European in historical terms and even anti-human. They have brought nihilism, which was not human, and now they have infected us—to a lesser extent—with something absolutely anti-human: loss of respect for family, love between men and women, respect for seniors, patriotism, and so on. What is left of Europe? And trusting in God?
There are normal people in Europe, of course. But I cannot talk to them. They are forbidden to talk to us, and if they do, they are summoned to the police or security services. I still have many friends in Europe, but I have no contact with them because the elites have banned communication. Those same elites are preparing Europeans morally for war, yet they cannot comprehend that if a real big war is unleashed—if the war in Ukraine, which we are waging with Europeans, escalates a little bit—Europe will face consequences.
Thank God we have recently changed our nuclear doctrine. Our president—very cautious and polite—said something very important: if Europe gets into real direct conflict with Russia, there will be nobody left in Europe to talk to. I hope and pray we never have to make that decision. But Europe is the source of most evils and is returning to its worst times.
Twice in the past year, Ukrainians have tried—at least twice—to kill President Putin. What’s the thinking there?
It is very simple. They are belligerent. Some believe you could solve the problem of Russia by killing our president. Our president’s one problem is that he is too cautious. They hate his caution and his perseverance. I criticize him indirectly—or sometimes directly—for being too patient. They simply want to kill him out of noble hatred from people who have lost their minds.
The level of anti-Russian propaganda and Russophobia in Europe now is perhaps even stronger than in Hitler’s Germany.
What would happen if your president were assassinated by Ukrainians, Europe, or the United States?
Let’s hope that does not happen. But of course it would mean we would punish—hopefully not the United States—but Europe would be taken off the map of humanity. It should be pushed away from the geopolitical and geostrategic map because it is a nuisance. I hope it would not be punished physically, though I am starting to think these idiots understand nothing but physical pain. Sooner or later we may have to go up the ladder of escalation. If they do not stop this senseless war and hostility in and around Ukraine, we would have to start attacking Europe with conventional weapons, and the next step would be waves of nuclear strikes.
I hope we do not reach that point. Using any weapon is a sin, but using nuclear weapons is a double sin. I don’t want Russia to be that big a sinner. We have our sins, but if needed, we have to eliminate the European threat to humanity.
How far are we from Russia using nuclear weapons against Europe?
One or two years—if they continue as they are.
I’ve been calling on my government to escalate earlier, but President Putin is very religious, cautious, and polite. We have been climbing the ladder of escalation, changing our nuclear doctrine, lowering the nuclear threshold, and building up our nuclear potential—in the hope that we can stop them before crossing the threshold.
Putin believes—and I believe—that using nuclear weapons is a sin but might be a necessary sin to save humanity. That is why I have called for limited nuclear use against Europe. Otherwise, the world will drift into a third world war, toward which Europeans are pushing us. They have done that twice in history, sucking in the United States. You Americans saved them once or twice. Now they are at it again, and we have to either punish them or help them change their minds.
It is not about regime change, but if Europeans do not replace these elites with more nationally oriented and responsible ones, they are doomed. I hate this idea because culturally I am a European. We are moving toward Siberia, toward the East. We are sincerely becoming—or returning to being—a Eurasian nation. But the loss of Europe would be a pity.
If there were nuclear strikes from Russia into Europe in the next year or two, which countries would that include?
I have written several times that if we strike, the Americans would never respond anyway. I hope the Poles are becoming more sensible—they understand they are playing with fire and are trying to retreat from the front lines of this conflict. But my choice would be Britain and Germany. Germany should be first because it is the source of the worst in European history.
I beg Almighty God that it will not happen. I have many German friends.
You recently came back from Beijing. Ties between Russia and China are much deeper than they were four years ago. From an American perspective, a permanent Russia-China alliance is a threat. Is that alliance permanent?
For the foreseeable future, it is a source of great strength for both Russia and China. Our Chinese friends understand that. What will happen in 10 to 15 years, we do not know. Our best solution is a world where four great powers—China, Russia, the United States, and India—work together to define the rules of behavior in the future world.
That configuration also means we should balance China’s overall preponderance. At this juncture, China is a fantastic asset, not a threat. Just in case, we should create at least a four-country system. Plus, we are building Greater Eurasia—a system of relationships where China will be balanced by major powers within Eurasia, including India, Persia, Turkey, Russia, and others.
The Chinese are starting to understand that it is in their interest to create a balanced system within Eurasia. Worldwide, the United States should be a key player. Without the United States, we will not succeed in dealing with the unbelievable problems facing us in the coming years.
Does Russia jeopardize its soul by leaving the West, given that it is an Orthodox country with a cultural legacy tied to Europe?
We are saving our soul. Our soul came from the East and from the South. We took Christianity from Palestine. The Orthodox Church is the true Christianity because Catholics left at the beginning of the previous millennium. We are very much an Islamic country—20% of our population is Muslim. We also have a strong Buddhist population and an acknowledged Jewish one.
Politically, we inherited much from the greatest empire of them all—the Genghis Khan Empire. We are an Asian empire with very strong European cultural influence, which we love and adore and will never lose. But we are neither Asia nor Europe—thank God. We are now starting to acknowledge that.
Our European journey, which Peter the Great started because we were technologically backward, is over. It should have been over 150 years ago. It would have saved us from many troubles, including world wars and communism. Now we are parting ways, but hopefully keeping the best traits of European cultural heritage in our hearts and minds.
What effect have Western sanctions had on Russia? Do they hurt or help?
Economically, they hurt. Strategically, politically, and culturally, they have been a blessing. We invited unfriendly fire on ourselves. We did away with comprador elites and threw out the fifth column without repressions. We are returning to our Russian culture and Russian soul. We are becoming Russians again.
The only problem with the sanctions and the war is that we pay for it with the lives of our best men. That should be stopped. Other than that, they have been a blessing, and I do not want them lifted.
Russia, when threatened, becomes a warfighting nation again. We are a nation of warriors. When attacked—even indirectly, now directly—we return to our best. That is why the country is experiencing an unbelievable renaissance. The only problem is that we are losing our best men.
You describe this as a civilizational war between Russia and Europe. What role does the United States—and President Trump—play in ending it? What can President Trump do to end the war?
Americans were very crucial in starting this war. The problem began in the early 2000s when American administrations started to prop up European issues because they were afraid of a possible continental alliance between Russia and Germany. In a way, Americans have been a source of the problem.
As for the Trump administration’s offer, I didn’t like it because it doesn’t solve the real problem: European hostility and aggression. But for the time being, we should use this opportunity if possible. President Trump is focused on internal affairs, and his offers are diluted by efforts from within and by his so-called allies.
We could try his offer for a while. Maybe eventually we would reach a solution. But the real solution is Europe. Unfortunately, I do not foresee that possibility. Even if we stop this war, we should be prepared—when the war resumes—to do away with the source: the hostility of European elites and their willingness to fuel warfare on the European subcontinent.
Let’s give Trump a chance, although I’m not sure he or we can succeed under the circumstances. You know the internal situation in the United States better. We cannot fully rely on him—he has a deeply divided country behind him, huge opposition, and he is playing political games.
We are watching carefully that the presidential administration has abducted the leader of a big country and that American marines are acting like pirates on the high seas, seizing tankers flying Russian flags. If that continues, we will have to return to rough deterrence.
We would like good—if not cordial—relations with the United States and the other two great countries in the world. We will see whether he can deliver. I think he wants to, but whether he is able is a big question.
We keep our fingers crossed. We hope he is sincere, but we do not trust American policies. To a certain extent, his proposals look like a honey trap—because nothing happens, they continue the war while talking about peace, referring to Zelensky or other figures in Europe who are blocking it.
It seems the United States may not want to finish this war. If so, we will have to come back to the solution I mentioned: starting to punish our European enemies—with the understanding, hopefully, that the United States would refrain from participating in a nuclear war in Europe.
I think it’s important for American policymakers and citizens to understand the Russian perspective. I’m grateful that you gave it to us, Mr. Karaganov. Thank you very much for your time.
Thank you. It was a pleasure.
Thank you for me, too.
