The Role of Meditation in the Work

How significant is meditation in one's path of self realization? Meditation has been touted as the means of ascension, but the truth of the matter is that there are numerous techniques of meditation coupled with many different schools.
All i really want to know is are we 'new age' seekers being duped by the promises of meditation, or can meditation be beneficial.
If meditation is beneficial, then what technique is best used? Chakra meditation? Self Observation?
the fact of the matter is that too much contemplation stimulates the mid centre/chakra. How can we fuel that drive for the truth? Our soul questing?
I just want to know what tecniques of meditation and energy work can be utilized to further one on the path of truth.

In group work I have often pointed out the struggle I have had between the practice of meditation and the separate and distinct practice in "the work" of physical sensation.

They are not compatible, and yet, I have created a sort of coping mechanism that allows me to "enjoy" the benefits of both. I can only measure these benefits in energy levels and productivity, which are outward measures and maybe not the most important things.

Both are paths of "descent" (inward paths), but one transcends and the other focuses very tightly.

I'd like to join wilecoyote in his question.

Max Sandor said:

(...) that the word 'meditation' is being used to denote about _everything_ that is different from daily routine and has thus become a meaningless tautology, a word that can mean anything or nothing at all.

Using the phrase 'I was meditating' doesn't express _what_ one was _doing_. It is like answering to the question of 'what did you today?' by saying 'I was living the entire day!'.

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Well, Max put it quite clearly. There is so much confusion around meditation, that before I engage in any form of it, I'd like some at least rough guidelines - what to do exactly? Or, maybe not everyone should/needs to meditate?

Some people ought to meditate one way, some people ought to meditate another way. Each individual has specific requirements as to type and duration of meditation. Every case is individual.

Meditation, taken in proper doses, along with "tuning the reading instrument", can certainly accelerate one's "progress."

There are two basic ways to meditate: with seed and without seed. That is, to have something to focus on, or to attempt to completely empty the mind. It is generally more productive to meditate with seed in the beginning. Depending on your "type" the "seed" will be different. If you are a visual person, holding a visual image in the mind works. If you are an auditory person, holding a phrase and "hearing" it in your mind works. If you are kinesthetic, holding a "feeling" or trying to achieve that feeling, works best.

Also, at the point when you begin to have some success in stilling the "chatter," you can experiment with changing the seed or combining. You might have a visual and auditory, or feeling and visual, or auditory and feeling, or all of them at once.

My personal preference is a phrase that I can also "see" as letters forming words that appear and dissolve. With this, I have both "thought content" as well as visual image and can easily add "feeling" and sound at will. I can also discard visual, auditory and feeling elements and simply concentrate on the "content."

Breathing is very important for a number of reasons. Very slow, controlled breathing with counting to start the process works very effectively. Breath in through the nose and out through the mouth. Once the breathing (that your are counting in order to regulate) becomes deep, slow and regular, then introduce either your phrase, visual image, or whatever you have selected as "seed." The breathing ought to continue as you have set it.

The object, in the beginning, is to set several tasks for your mind to focus on intently and to hold that focus for as long as you can. If your mind wanders and other thoughts come along, as soon as you realize that you have lost focus, just bring your mind back to the focus and don't get irritated that you have "lost your concentration." Most people can't focus on a single thing for longer than two or three minutes. That is why it is useful to begin with concentrating on the breathing and counting the breaths with the intention of setting up a specific depth and frequency. If you breath in for a count of 10, hold for a count of 5, breath out for a count of 10, and do this for at least 25 breaths in a row, you have achieved a respectable first step.

Another very useful technique is to find a poem or more lengthy quote to use as your breathing template AND "content."

For example, the so-called "Lord's Prayer" is very useful in this way.

Recite in your mind: Our Father Who art in Heaven ... on the in breath while holding in mind that the "kingdom of heaven, the "heavenly father" is the higher intellectual center ...

"Hallowed be thy Name...." on the outbreath while holding in mind that this is the part of you that is holy and which you desire to manifest through your self...

"Thy Kingdom Come, Thy will be done"... On the in breath while considering the fact that you wish to establish a link with your higher centers - the REAL you - via the magnetic center,

"On Earth as it is in heaven" on the out breath, contemplating the fact that once the magnetic center is formed that the will of the spirit, the "heavenly kingdom" can be brought into your life...

You don't have to do the whole prayer, the above is sufficient seed, but if you want to do the whole thing, I think you have the idea. You can visualize the words, consider the content, "feel" them, all the while the words themselves are acting as the "counter" for your breathing.

Some people can achieve very good results with very simple seed, other people require more complexity. Again, the point is to have something that you can focus on and to hold that focus intently. It is more or less an exercising of the Will and Intent, building a sort of "psychic muscle."

You may be surprised at the tenacity of the chatter and its resistance to this one-pointed focus.

Such a complicated subject! It's a very fine line between real progression and psychosomatic progression. In fact, when it comes to defining how much your mind has progressed through various practices, it's almost impossible to determine whether meditation works or if your mind just convinced itself its true. This is why I base my observations on the physical body, which is progression you can measure.

By what I've read there are 2 main forms of meditation, there is "open" meditation, where you keep the mind completely silent as you flick away distracting thoughts, and there is "focused" meditation, where you focus on something with full attention- this method tends to be used for learning a particular skill, while the other is about attaining a clear and peaceful mind... Obviously that's a simplified explanation; there are many, many benefits to be had with both forms of meditation, on top of that, the effectiveness also depends on the specific practice and it's qualities...Which is why I do both!

These days, especially with the whole new age bonanza, many people tend to use meditation to visualise things that are supposedly beneficial, one example is focusing on various colours that correspond with certain chakras, another is called cloud breathing, where you visualise golden clouds going into the body as you breath in, and visualise black smoke being expelled from the body as you breath out.
Personally I am very sceptical of methods such as those, especially since practically anyone can proclaim to be an "expert" and make up methods of their own. There is so much disinformation regarding meditation and energy (Qi), one reason is because western science hasn't found a way of verifying how Qi works yet. Maybe these methods do help, since the mind can convince the body that these methods work, but it doesn't have any scientific merit to it, nor can one verify objectively whether these methods actually work or not by testing it. We know the mind is powerful and can overcome bodily ills, but I think a lot of it is due to wishful thinking. Yes, if the mind really believes that these methods can work, then it might work, but is it a placebo? how do you discern between fact and fiction? Furthermore, how is "REAL" progress made?

I prefer a scientific approach to mediation and anything concerning energy work, one needs to see the reasoning behind the methods and explain how and why it works. I recommend "The root of Chinese Qi Gong", you'll find a lot of answers in there, this book shows you how and why meditation works, where it comes from, and the best approach according to what you are trying to achieve. The research is based on ancient documents, and a lot is missing, but it'll give you a good foundation to start on. Plus the author advises the reader not to take it as the whole truth, but rather as a work in progress, he tells the reader to discover for himself how it works and remain flexible to new ideas and conventions. Maybe the words "ancient documents" raises red flags, since it's difficult to prove the authenticity of the documents, but you can test out the information by observing the condition of your body and testing the information. This book presents diagrams of many Qi channels and vessels for example, describing symptoms that correspond with deficient organs and Qi channels; you can follow it up and see if the information is correct for yourself.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1886969507/qid=1149672101/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/203-7604609-2855124

This book also gives the reader different schools of meditation, why they were made, and which one would suit the reader best depending on their objectives.
The book goes into detail about how one should approach meditation, and where to begin. It's been an invaluable source for me, and has eliminated maybe years of pointless wondering. I must commend Dr Yang Jwing Ming for the extensive and clear research he has made in this field.

There are no shortcuts with meditation and Qi Gong, it requires a lot of hard work and perseverance, it also teaches you how to focus properly and clear the mind, along with many other benefits you'll have to find for yourself. I think learning how to keep the mind, body and spirit working in harmony are excellent requisites for the work. There are many "love and light" people that get drawn towards advanced methods when they are amateurs, this is what you need to be careful of, and it can be dangerous. I'd advise that you start with the most basic form of meditation possible, one where you only focus on the breathing to start with.
Have a look at this:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1856752151/qid=1149678179/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl/203-7604609-2855124

In my opinion there is no question as to the usefulness of meditation, I recall reading the C's suggesting Laura to meditate at a few points, which certainly opened up doors, one needs to understand the methodology behind it though, simply doing meditation like these new age visualisations without a proper idea of how it works is foolish at best, and very dangerous at worst.

HA HA! I must've posted just after you did Laura, upon posting my message your reply wasn't there, and after it was.
Sorry for the repetition.
:D

For what its worth here's a post of mine from a past thread (basically similar to what was state above):

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=381.msg1527#msg1527

EsoQuest said:

Justin said:

I have never meditated in any formal way or with the methods described in many books and other media. With all the stuff that's out there on meditation techniques and practices, I don't know what is useful and what it not.

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I've been practicing meditation for 25 years, and it's been quite a journey. I found that the key components of this journey are self exploration and self revelation. The more you meditate the more you allow the unconditioned "you" to come forth, and there comes a time (usually sooner than later) when its presence becomes loud and clear not only as an "inner voice" but as a sense of identity.

That said, meditation is an umbrella term for many many paths, and the reason there are so many paths is because of the grand variety in personal dispositions. I do believe some paths work better than others, but that can easily be because there are some directions that simply do not work for me, or rather I am not inclined toward them.

Meditation requires dedication. You need to be into it, and be patient. IMO the best way is to see what draws you the most over a certain spectrum of methods and work your way through it. Many people stick with one method, but I found myself growing from one direction to another over a period, and then coming back to an earlier method and sometimes even modifying it according to my inner voice. Each method has a different emphasis, and sometimes you shift depending on inner need.

IMO, one of the most important things meditation can offer (as a quieting of the mind and heart), is to allow an initially very subtle inner voice to come forth and eventually grow into a source of strength. You can call it developing intuition, or listening to the higher self. So simply relaxing and quieting thoughts is a good way to feed this inner knowedness, which in itself can come in as many ways as there are people.

Although meditation can initially be challenging, given the riotous nature of the mind and the glutted nature of the conditioned subconscious, the best way I know to begin is to trust your gut as far as what feels right for you out of all that is out there, and simply dive into it. I wouldn't worry about wasting time, because its all steps in the journey that's going to be taken anyway once you decide to take the first step.

Exploring options is just another way of exercising the inner voice until it gives the thumbs up to stay on one track. Meditation IMO begins with the sincere desire to do it, and all one needs from there is to keep taking the next step.

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If I may, allow me to present a "method" that I found quite useful, and which might be helpful for those doing the work. This is very simple in principle, but it can have profound effects.

It is meditation on "not knowing". In the sense I am describing it, "not knowing" is not simple ignorance, although that is an effect. Fundamentally, we all have a degree of knowledge. Not knowing takes us to the frontier of that knowledge, to the sense of where knowledge ends and the unknown begins.

Not knowing takes us to the void where all is possible, and nothing has become. It is at that frontier where our sense of being emerges. Not knowing transcends concepts of "future" or any temporality related to our "evolution". It is simply the sense of the void, of undifferentiated potential.

This is non-being, but not in the sense of death, but of birth. Our becoming can be seen as an entrance into the unknown, but it can also be seen as an ongoing emergence out of the undifferentiated unknowable. Unknowable, because it includes everything as no-thing. In that sense, non-being and being have a common foundation of existential essence. At the boundary of emergence we can get a sense of that common foundation.

It is something beyond conceptualization, but the body/psyche senses it as a kind of "shock" barrier, a turbulence we experience when we encounter not just the unknown (which is just another way of describing the unfamiliar), but also the unknowable (since knowledge in any conceptual sense is a property of being).

As "esoteric" as this may sound, it is actually quite simple: Just remember the experience of not knowing, of being faced with a blank slate or a dark expanse where you have no clue what might emerge. This is actually a common experience, and unfortunately we tend to avoid it instead of grasping the opportunity if provides. Don't try to define it, and don't try to know it. Just be present in the sense of it. Own the sense of not knowing.

There is a paradox here (a dogma-transcendent effect). By immersing ourselves, and claiming our right to the presence of the void, we make ourselves more readily available to its infinite potential. Just what does emerge depends on our orientation of being, but when we accept the presence of the void, we rest at the frontier of our growth potential.

Many resistances in the work, and any path, are related to a reflexively adverse relationship with our own frontier of growth. It is a dissonance we feel where we confront the "next step" that is still not there, and where we the emptiness of all that can be, out of which we must discern or be guided into what must be for us. We feel this individually, and certainly feel it regarding the state of the world today. The frontier between knowing and not knowing (a reflection in consciousness of the frontier between being and not being) is where choices are made.

Unofortunately we rush to make those choices, rush toward solutions, not really to "resolve" but to be free of the dissonance of uncertainty. And what is true is that when we resist that which is really part of our existential matrix, it tends to come at us in a relentless manner, in direct proportion to our avoidance.

Becoming comfortable with the sense of not knowing (even as it presents itself through discomfort), confronting the panic and intensity that this sense often generates, is a big step to dissolving self-importance at the root. In one existential sense, self-importance is the projection of our desire to dominate the unknowable, where we act as if we already have. This is the self-importance of being in control, of having all the bases covered.

Allow me to present the possibilty that the knowledge that protects also involves the knowledge of not knowing, knowledge of the unknowable, which can never be informative, but it can be sensed and one can claim it as part of oneself, the frontier of ones very growth. It is not claiming the void, but claiming one's presence of self at its frontier. Self-knowledge implies familiarity with one side of the frontier, existential knowledge expands to the frontier iteself, and involves familiarilty with the sense of not knowing experienced at that frontier.

We are all confronted with not knowing in our lives. Observing it to the very depths, observing how we responde to it, observing our sense of its implications upon our becoming is a valuable exercise, osit.

[J. Krishnamurti had the following dialogue with students at one of his schools in India.]
[Krishnamurti:] Do you know anything about meditation?
Student: No, Sir.
Krishnamurti: But the older people do not know either. They sit in a corner, close their eyes and concentrate, like school boys trying to concentrate on a book. That is not meditation. Meditation is something extraordinary, if you know how to do it. I am going to talk a little about it.
First of all, sit very quietly; do not force yourself to sit quietly, but sit or lie down quietly without force of any kind. Do you understand? Then watch your thinking. Watch what you are thinking about. You find you are thinking about your shoes, your saris, what you are going to say, the bird outside to which you listen; follow such thoughts and enquire why each thought arises. Do not try to change your thinking. See why certain thoughts arise in your mind so that you begin to understand the meaning of every thought and feeling without any enforcement. And when a thought arises, do not condemn it, do not say it is right, it is wrong, it is good, it is bad. Just watch it, so that you begin to have a perception, a consciousness which is active in seeing every kind of thought, every kind of feeling. You will know every hidden secret thought, every hidden motive, every feeling, without distortion, without saying it is right, wrong, good or bad. When you look, when you go into thought very very deeply, your mind becomes extraordinarily subtle, alive. No part of the mind is asleep. The mind is completely awake.
That is merely the foundation. Then your mind is very quiet. Your whole being becomes very still. Then go through that stillness, deeper, further - that whole process is meditation. Meditation is not to sit in a corner repeating a lot of words; or to think of a picture and go into some wild, ecstatic imaginings.
To understand the whole process of your thinking and feeling is to be free from all thought, to be free from all feeling so that your mind, your whole being becomes very quiet . And that is also part of life and with that quietness, you can look at the tree, you can look at people, you can look at the sky and the stars. That is the beauty of life.

On Education, first published 1974, Krishnamurti Foundation Trust Ltd., London, , p. 58

I must say Pescado-this is one of the most eloquent and profound descriptions I have ever seen regarding Meditation.

Perhaps those who have tried it and had little or no result (my self included) should refer to this-I wonder if Gurdjief had this in mind when he spoke of "self observation"?

Thank you for sharing this! :)

'the observer is the observed' - K
krishnamurti is the most eloquent speaker when it comes to matters such as this. also because he had no interest in the dogma that inundates most 'spiritual paths'. i'd highly recommend reading some of his work. it has been some of the most illuminating work i've ever stumbled across. here's some other bits about meditation, although i've come across much more in his books..





Meditation is never the control of the body. There is no actual division between the organism and the mind. The brain, the nervous system and the thing we call the mind are one, indivisible. It is the natural act of meditation that brings about the harmonious movement of the whole. To divide the body from the mind and to control the body with intellectual decisions is to bring about contradiction, from which arise various forms of struggle, conflict and resistance.

Every decision to control only breeds resistance, even the determination to be aware. Meditation is the understanding of the division brought about by decision. Freedom is not the act of decision but the act of perception. The seeing is the doing. It is not a determination to see and then to act. After all, will is desire with all it's contradictions. When one desire assumes authority over another, that desire becomes will. In this there is inevitable division. And meditation is the understanding of desire, not the overcoming of one desire by another. Desire is the movement of sensation, which becomes pleasure and fear. This is sustained by the constant dwelling of thought upon one or the other.

Meditation really is a complete emptying of the mind. Then there is only functioning of the body; there is only the activity of the organism and nothing else; then thought functions without identification as the me and the non-me. Thought is mechanical, as is the organism. What creates conflict is thought identifying itself with one of its parts which becomes the me, the self and the various divisions in that self. There is no need for the self at any time. There is nothing but the body, and freedom of the mind can only happen when thought is not breeding the me. There is no self to understand but only the thought which creates the self. When there is only the organism without the self , perception, both visual and non-visual can never be distorted. There is only seeing 'what is' and that very perception goes beyond what is. The emptying of the mind is not an activity of thought or an intellectual process. The continuous seeing of what is without any kind of distortion naturally empties the mind of all thought and yet that very mind can use thought when it is necessary. Thought is mechanical and meditation is not.

Excerpt taken from 'The Beginnings of Learning'.
Copyright: Krishnamurti Foundation Trust Ltd. London. 1979
Published by Victor Gollancz Ltd.

Thought cannot conceive or formulate to itself the nature of space. Whatever it formulates has within it the limitation of its own boundaries. This is not the space which meditation comes upon. Thought has always a horizon. The meditative mind has no horizon. The mind cannot go from the limited to the immense, nor can it transform the limited into the limitless. The one has to cease for the other to be. Meditation is opening the door into spaciousness which cannot be imagined or speculated upon. Thought is the center round which there is the space of idea, and this space can be expanded by further ideas. But such expansion through stimulation in any form is not the spaciousness in which there is no center. Meditation is the understanding of this center and so going beyond it. Silence and spaciousness go together. The immensity of silence is the immensity of the mind in which a center does not exist. The perception of this space and silence is not of thought. Thought can perceive only its own projection, and the recognition of it is its own frontier.

J. Krishnamurti, The Only Revolution, Victor Gollancz: London, 1970, p. 40


Meditation is not a search, it's not a seeking, a probing, an exploration. It is an explosion and discovery. It's not the taming of the brain to conform nor is it a self-introspective analysis, it is certainly not the training in concentration which includes, chooses and denies. It's something that comes naturally, when all positive and negative assertions and accomplishments have been understood and drop away easily. It is the total emptiness of the brain. It's the emptiness that is essential, not what's in the emptiness, there is seeing only from emptiness, all virtue, not social morality and respectability, springs from it. It's out of this emptiness love comes, otherwise it's not love. Foundation of righteousness is in this emptiness. It's the end and beginning of all things.

Krishnamurti, Notebook

"What is meditation and how is it related to creativity?"

Meditation is a very complex business. This is a dialogue between us. And I said it is a very complex business. The word meditation implies both in Sanskrit and in English, not only the brain concentrating on a certain subject, but also it implies a great deal of attention. But primarily meditation means, in Sanskrit, to measure. And also in English etymologically, I believe, it is to measure. The whole question of becoming is involved in it, which is to measure: I am this, I will be that. I am greedy, but I will gradually become non-greedy, which is a form of measurement, which is form of becoming. Both becoming in the affairs of the world and psychologically becoming. That is the whole question of measurement. The Greeks, the ancient Greeks - you know all about that, I don't have to go into it - were the originators of measurement. Without measurement there would be no technology. And the Asiatics specially in India, said measurement is illusion, measurement means limitation. I am translating, they didn't exactly say this, they put it differently. So measurement means comparison, to compare 'what is', 'what should be', the ideal, the fact, the fact becoming the ideal. All that is implied in meditation.

And also in meditation is implied, the meditator and the meditation. If there is any difficulty in understanding what the speaker is saying jump on him, please. Because it is a very complex business. And specially some of the Indian gurus have brought this word into America and made a lot of money out of it. They are multi-millionaires, I have met them. They are appalling beings, the are all out for money.

So to enquire into meditation, you have to enquire first not only measurement, but also this constant becoming something, psychologically. Human beings are violent, and the ideal to be in a state of non-violence, which is to become.

Q: Do you set goals for your meditation?

K: I am saying what is implied in the whole structure and the nature of meditation. It is not how to meditate but what is meditation, rather than how. I hope I am making myself clear. And also there is a question involved in that: who is meditating? And most of the systems of meditation, whether the Japanese, and the Hindus, and so on, Tibetan, there is always the controller and the controlled. Right? Are we meeting each other? So there is the controller controlling thought, to quieten the thought, to shape thought according to a purposeful direction. So there is the controller and the controlled. Who is the controller? Please, all this is implied in meditation, not merely to control one's thought as is generally understood in meditation, whether it is Zen meditation, or the most complex forms of meditation which take place in India, and elsewhere, there is always the director, the entity that controls thought. So they have divided psychologically the thinker and the thought. So the thinker separates himself from the whole activity of thought, and therefore in meditation is implied the controller controlling thought so as to make thought quiet. That is the essence of meditation, to bring about a state of brain - I won't use the mind for the moment - to make the brain quiet. I'll explain a little more and go into that.

So there is a division between the controller and the controlled. Right? Who is the controller? Very few people have asked that question. They are all delighted to meditate, hoping to get somewhere - illumination, enlightenment and quietness of the brain, peace of mind and so on. But very, very few people have enquired: who is the controller? May we go on with that? The controller is also thought. The controller is the past, is the entity, or the movement of time as the past and measure. So there is the past who is the thinker, separate from the thought, and the thinker tries to control thought. Human beings have invented god - sorry, I hope you don't mind. You won't be shocked if I go into all this?

A: No, go ahead.

K: Human beings, out of their fear, invented god. And they tried to reach god, which is the ultimate principle, in India it is called Brahman, the ultimate principle. And meditation is to reach the ultimate. So meditation is really very, very complex, it is not just merely meditating for twenty minutes in the morning, twenty minutes in the afternoon, and twenty minutes in the evening - which is taking a siesta, not meditation at all. So if one wants to discover what is meditation one has to ask: why does one have to meditate? One realizes one's brain is constantly chattering, constantly planning, designing - what it will do, what it has done, the past impinging itself on the present, it is everlasting chattering, chattering, whether the scientific chatter - sorry! - or ordinary daily life chatter, like a housewife chattering endlessly about something or other. So the brain is constantly in movement. Now the idea of meditation is to make the brain quiet, silent, completely attentive, and in that attention find that which is - perhaps you will object to this word 'eternity' - or something sacred. That is the intention of those who really have gone into this question. The speaker has gone into this for the last sixty years or more. He has discussed this question with the Zen pundits, with the Zen patriarches, with the Hindus and Tibetan, and all the rest of the gang. I hope you don't mind my talking colloquially, do you?

And the speaker refutes all that kind of meditation because their idea of meditation is to achieve an end. The end being complete control of the brain so that there is no movement of thought. Because when the brain is still, deliberately disciplined, deliberately sought after, it is not silent. It is like achieving something, which is the action of desire. I don't know if you follow all this. May I go on?

So one has to enquire also, if one is interested in all this, what is desire? Not suppress desire, as the monks and the Indian Sannyasis do, suppress desire, or identify desire with something higher - higher principle, higher image, if you are a Christian with Christ and so on. So one has to understand if one wants to find out what is meditation, one has to enquire into desire. All right, sirs?

J. Krishnamurti Los Alamos (USA) National Laboratory
2nd Colloquium 21st March 1984
'Creativity In Science'

What Gurdjieff calls "self observation" is a fundamental ancient practice spanning many cultures. Buddhists, for example, call it "mindfullness". For Krishnamurti its practice, including the perpetual deepening of inner silence, was the whole of the path. For others it is a foundation, and a beginning upon which to build and expand presence of true self.

As basic and indespensable as it is, it is still of the path of mind, and mind's relationship with emotions, body and world. It establishes harmony in that relationship, upon which one can base right action, but development does not necessarily end there. With this in mind, it certainly represents the spirit of the what is called "meditation", while blind exericises and mechanical concentrations do not.

EsoQuest said:

What Gurdjieff calls "self observation" is a fundamental ancient practice spanning many cultures. Buddhists, for example, call it "mindfullness". For Krishnamurti its practice, including the perpetual deepening of inner silence, was the whole of the path. For others it is a foundation, and a beginning upon which to build and expand presence of true self.

As basic and indespensable as it is, it is still of the path of mind, and mind's relationship with emotions, body and world. It establishes harmony in that relationship, upon which one can base right action, but development does not necessarily end there. With this in mind, it certainly represents the spirit of the what is called "meditation", while blind exericises and mechanical concentrations do not.

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i think they're speaking of the same thing. self observation is exactly what krisnamurti explains in the beginnings of quieting the mind. the quote i used at the beginning of my last post also reinforces a similar idea perceptually.. that their really is no point of observation seeing its all 'one thing'. for krisnamurti the deepening of inner silence was not the objective or the roof.. that would imply a desire, a horizon. whereas he spoke often of 'the other' or something beyond the mind, silence, etc. try reading the ending of time, dialouges with david bohm.

pescado said:

whereas he spoke often of 'the other' or something beyond the mind, silence, etc. try reading the ending of time, dialouges with david bohm.

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I understand what you are saying. I read most of Krishnamurti's work, and the dialogues with Bohm quite closely. I also practice the silence of which he speaks as a matter of course, and have for many years. It's not a matter of understanding Krishnamurti. I think he is quite clear. And I am not denying that silence does not transcend the mind, although it can also lead to the Buddhist Nirvana experience.

I am saying that silence is a path of the mind, and that "other" beyond the mind is attained through that path. There may be no objective, as you say, no desire and no roof, but that openendedness is still accessed through that path of silencing the mind.

Again, I am not denying this path. I am only saying that there is more than that.

What one may consider is that it IS all one essence, but it is also many things. For a time I believed this was IT (the realizations of silence, including transcendence of temporality, desire, separetness), but I came to understand that there is more, and that that more is not necessarily attained by deepening the silence.

When all is silenced and that silence deepens, consciousness experiences ITSELF, through all things and as an essence unto itself. The profound nature of this experience easily gives the impression that consciousness is all there is, and I am sure many will argue that this is the case.

Consciousness, however, is one side of the spectrum of being. There is also Nature, the other side, where Desire is a valid force of a "magnetic" nature that grounds consciousness resulting in differentiated creation. This Desire is not to be confused with programming, addiction and human whim. It is a force as encompassing as Consciousness or Spirit is encompassing, and the other side of the alchemical equation.

One might go so far as to say it is simply the other side of Consciousness, but that is still "seeing" it from the perspective of consciousness. One can call it Divine Sentience (of one thinks in terms of awareness), and even then words decieve. Since we cannot communicate what we do not know, and we cannot know anything without consciousness, knowledge is always experienced from that perspective.

Yet there is reality of being without knowledge in terms of how mind channels consciousness. There is even action without consciousness, such as the action of matter. Yet matter is alive (although not necessarily in biological terms) and sentient. It vibrates and responds to vibration. It attracts and repels and does not need to be conscious to do so.

Yet consciousness permeates nature, but is not necessarily of Nature. The point is to experience the spectrum of being in all its continuity, and in particular the sacred mid-point, where Consciousness as Principle and Nature as Principle meet within human potential. That is a state that can and will change the world because it represents the spark of creation and the pivot of reality. It is at that point where the purified soul essence described as the Philosopher's Stone in alchemy emerges.

Perhaps it seems counterproductive to say all this, when the topic of this forum is meditation. And perhaps it seems counterproductive to elaborate on a valid and useful method by pointing out that it is A goal rather than THE goal, at least as far as the changes in self that can make a difference in world are concerned.

However, meditation also includes the awakening of devotion to all being (including the spirit and nature ends of the spectrum) through feeling, and the awakening of the forces of one's physical body as Novelis presented in his post. These are all valid paths depending on your disposition and karmic or deep internal relationship to the spectrum of being.

And it is sound advice to always begin where one is strongest, and follow the inclinations of one's disposition until one developes a deeper understanding. Then either one can be a specialist of a particular path (which has its place so others may learn), or broaden the scope by applying oneself to other approaches, hence truly lifting a roof that otherwise one might never know is there. Integrating approaches is the surest way to make a difference in the world.

EsoQuest said:

pescado said:

whereas he spoke often of 'the other' or something beyond the mind, silence, etc. try reading the ending of time, dialouges with david bohm.

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I understand what you are saying. I read most of Krishnamurti's work, and the dialogues with Bohm quite closely. I also practice the silence of which he speaks as a matter of course, and have for many years. It's not a matter of understanding Krishnamurti. I think he is quite clear. And I am not denying that silence does not transcend the mind, although it can also lead to the Buddhist Nirvana experience.

I am saying that silence is a path of the mind, and that "other" beyond the mind is attained through that path. There may be no objective, as you say, no desire and no roof, but that openendedness is still accessed through that path of silencing the mind.

Again, I am not denying this path. I am only saying that there is more than that.

What one may consider is that it IS all one essence, but it is also many things. For a time I believed this was IT (the realizations of silence, including transcendence of temporality, desire, separetness), but I came to understand that there is more, and that that more is not necessarily attained by deepening the silence.

When all is silenced and that silence deepens, consciousness experiences ITSELF, through all things and as an essence unto itself. The profound nature of this experience easily gives the impression that consciousness is all there is, and I am sure many will argue that this is the case.

Consciousness, however, is one side of the spectrum of being. There is also Nature, the other side, where Desire is a valid force of a "magnetic" nature that grounds consciousness resulting in differentiated creation. This Desire is not to be confused with programming, addiction and human whim. It is a force as encompassing as Consciousness or Spirit is encompassing, and the other side of the alchemical equation.

Perhaps it seems counterproductive to say all this, when the topic of this forum is meditation. And perhaps it seems counterproductive to elaborate on a valid and useful method by pointing out that it is A goal rather than THE goal, at least as far as the changes in self that can make a difference in world are concerned.

However, meditation also includes the awakening of devotion to all being (including the spirit and nature ends of the spectrum) through feeling, and the awakening of the forces of one's physical body as Novelis presented in his post. These are all valid paths depending on your disposition and karmic or deep internal relationship to the spectrum of being.

And it is sound advice to always begin where one is strongest, and follow the inclinations of one's disposition until one developes a deeper understanding. Then either one can be a specialist of a particular path (which has its place so others may learn), or broaden the scope by applying oneself to other approaches, hence truly lifting a roof that otherwise one might never know is there. Integrating approaches is the surest way to make a difference in the world.

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i agree and i think it runs parallel to the wisdom of K. anything beyond the realm of conciousness or beyond conciousness,which is the pressence of 'the other', isnt something i think we could articulate anyways. so thats why the teachings deal with the 'foundation'. where to start, how to be congizant and how to have an empty mind.
i certainly dont think desire is invalid but understanding the movement of desire in yourself and in nature is very important.
i think that the forces in ones body awaken when they are ready to. i forced a premature kundalini awakening and it was like living in limbo for about 4 months without sleep or sanity. K had a full blown experience, something he called the process, but something that occured because it was an 'integrated' experience. not unlike the lessons the c's speak of.. when youre ready to graduate you'll know.
i think its a good idea not to get to convoluted with '3rd density concepts' when it comes to opening oneself to the the transpersonal.

pescado said:

i think its a good idea not to get to convoluted with '3rd density concepts' when it comes to opening oneself to the the transpersonal.

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I agree, in principle. This is a forum, however, and all we have is '3rd density concepts'. And here we are not discussing some pie in the sky "otherness", but states that can be attained within 3rd density, and which are in continuity with it. So, if we are to discuss it (and try to convey whatever experience we may have in assistence to others), I guess it's sometimes worth risking getting a bit convoluted. All we can do, after all, is provide food for thought, and digest what we can in turn.