The Role of Meditation in the Work

j0da said:
Today I understood that lately I've built another construct around myself, a construct of oh so cool 'truth seeker', a construct of 'personified god in learning'. There is nothing wrong with seeking a truth or being personified god..but only if it really is the case. If those are only outer manifestations, a pose, a play, a faked image - then what good is that? What good is reading these pages for sheer fun of 'thrill' or 'mystery'? What good is writting elaborate, eloquent posts if it is only a show? I found myself lying so terribly, so utterly, all the time, even here, pretending, mimicking, faking that it made me sick. Looking for a like-mindedness only for sake of like-mindedness? What good is that? What is it different from sitting in a forum dedicated to Pamela Anderson, besides from content? If one's frame of mind isn't of a real, dedicated seeker then being here is of no use, apart from sophisticated entertainment.
No need to worry about this. Everything is mixed in our ordinary state of consciousness which includes what is real and what is false in us. In a sense we can say that only difference between being asleep in life and asleep in the Work is that the content of the dream is different. But they are real dreams. So we pretty much begin in this mixed (dream) state. I understood the C's to say that what only matters is '"who we are and what we see." So we strive to connect to our inner conscience (who we are) and equally strive to be more objective about ourselves and the world around us (what we see). When I observe the posts on this forum I see people striving for this.

I think I remember reading in Castaneda where Don Juan was saying that only a nincompoop would want to walk the path of knowledge if they really knew what was in store for them. In a way, I think, we have to be 'tricked' into it because our everyday personalities have no idea what is really involved along the way, and yet it is our everyday personalities that gets us interested in this kind of work in the first place. So perhaps our 'higher self' (whatever that is), in a certain sense, 'tricks' our ordinary everyday personalities into this kind of work? Maybe.

So in a sense we are all 'nincompoops' who are choosing to learn how to be non-nincompoops. But the nincompoop in us may not like it. :)
 
regarding mantrams let me refer to an experience i had meditating many years ago..
i was attempting to utilize 'creative visualization' mostly out of curiousity and to test the viability of specific methods (many of which have produced strange effects.. ie. kundalini burning me up from the inside!!!! ouch)
so i ended up visualizing flying.. over a river of some sort. and the perception of it became more lucid as the state deepened. then all of a sudden i had this flash of why not experience this as something "real" and i was back in my body (in a sorta hypnogogic/sleep-paralysis way) and my spirtual center (chakra) arched up involuntarily and my vocal chords began to resonate by themselves. this happened for a few minutes until it really freaked me out and i broke trance.
 
pescado said:
regarding mantrams let me refer to an experience i had meditating many years ago..
i was attempting to utilize 'creative visualization' mostly out of curiousity and to test the viability of specific methods (many of which have produced strange effects.. ie. kundalini burning me up from the inside!!!! ouch)
so i ended up visualizing flying.. over a river of some sort. and the perception of it became more lucid as the state deepened. then all of a sudden i had this flash of why not experience this as something "real" and i was back in my body (in a sorta hypnogogic/sleep-paralysis way) and my spirtual center (chakra) arched up involuntarily and my vocal chords began to resonate by themselves. this happened for a few minutes until it really freaked me out and i broke trance.
I'd say to proceed with caution here. 'Creative visualization' can turn into a 'false doing'. Note the word 'creative' within the context of 'creative visualization.' This is where creativity can "turn on its head" and becomes imagination. Gurdjieff called the power of this imagination... 'Kundalini', which represents itself as all outer form with no essential content. I think you can say that Kundalini is an inverted form of true cosmic creativity. With this 'Kundalini force' the impersonal becomes personal, the non-actual becomes a substitute forthe actual resulting in the appearance of expansion and growth without its substance. With Kundalini real transformations become imaginary ones, and the essential and non-essential cannot be differentiated from one another. Under the power of Kundalini the essential becomes a kind of 'pseudo essentiality' since the mind can become so deluded it can lose its power of discrimination so as to make realistic distinctions between outer form and inner content.

The pseudo essential is different from the non-essential. In order to recognize the non-essential one must also recognize the essential. But under the spell of Kundalini one loses the ability to make such real distinctions. Under the power of Kundalini the essential reality does not really become non-reality but rather the real becomes a pseudo reality, reflecting the form of reality without its essential content. A good example of a person living in this pseudo essential world are George Bush with his Christian fundamentalism and in the occult 'magick' of Vincent Bridges and those like him (The Adventures Series describes this well).

In P.D.Ouspensky's book 'In Search Of The Miraculous' his teacher Gurdjieff says as follows regarding Kundalini or 'pseudo (imaginary) creativity.'

"In so-called 'occult' literature you have probably met with the expression 'Kundalini,' 'the fire of Kundalini,' or the 'serpent of Kundalini.' This expression is often used to designate some kind of strange force which is present in man and which can be awakened. But none of the known theories gives the right explanation of the force of Kundalini. Sometimes it is connected with sex, with sex energy, that is with the idea of the possibility of using sex energy for other purposes. This latter is entirely wrong because Kundalini can be in anything. And above all, Kundalini is not anything desirable or useful for man's development. It is very curious how these occultists have got hold of the word from somewhere but have completely altered its meaning and from a very dangerous and terrible thing have made something to be hoped for and to be awaited as some blessing. In reality Kundalini is the power of imagination, the power of fantasy, which takes the place of a real function. When a man dreams instead of acting, when his dreams take the place of reality, when a man imagines himself to be an eagle, a lion, or a magician, it is the force of Kundalini acting in him. Kundalini can act in all centers and with its help all the centers can be satisfied with the imaginary instead of the real. A sheep which considers itself a lion or a magician lives under the power of Kundalini. "Kundalini is a force put into men in order to keep them in their present state. If men could really see their true position and could understand all the horror of it, they would be unable to remain where they are even for one second. They would begin to seek a way out and they would quickly find it, because there is a way out; but men fail to see it simply because they are hypnotized. Kundalini is the force that keeps them in a hypnotic state. 'To awaken' for man means to be 'dehypnotized.' In this lies the chief difficulty and in this also lies the guarantee of its possibility, for there is no organic reason for sleep and man can awaken. "Theoretically he can, but practically it is almost impossible because as soon as a man awakens for a moment and opens his eyes, all the forces that caused him to fall asleep begin to act upon him with tenfold energy and he immediately falls asleep again, very often dreaming that he is awake or is awakening. "There are certain states in ordinary sleep in which a man wants to awaken but cannot. He tells himself that he is awake but, in reality, he continues to sleep-and this can happen several times before he finally awakes. But in ordinary sleep, once he is awake, he is in a different state; in hypnotic sleep the case is otherwise; there are no objective characteristics, at any rate not at the beginning of awakening; a man cannot pinch himself in order to make sure that he is not asleep. And if, which God forbid, a man has heard anything about objective characteristics, Kundalini at once transforms it all into imagination and dreams".
 
trust me i'm more than familiar.. this happened a long time ago. after posting about k's approach to meditation i would only assume that it would suggest i've moved beyond many of the standard approaches to meditation. the creative visualization experience happened in high school. its all old news.
 
kenlee said:
Gurdjieff called the power of this imagination... 'Kundalini', which represents itself as all outer form with no essential content. I think you can say that Kundalini is an inverted form of true cosmic creativity. With this 'Kundalini force' the impersonal becomes personal, the non-actual becomes a substitute forthe actual resulting in the appearance of expansion and growth without its substance.
Sometimes I think it might be wise to throw the whole wagon of esoteric concepts over a cliff and start from scratch. Unfortunately, new observations would eventually become corrupted, and these days we don't seem to have the luxury of spending years carving out new maps to old territories.

Kundalini is an Indian terms, with its own cultural background. It seems to be the response of the body to forces stimulating it to transcendent states. This response can very well be an inverted form of cosmic creativity. It can also be a mirrored response to cosmic creativity.

I think Gurdjieff or his teachers came into contact with many cases of deviant kundalini, where the biopsychic response led to delusionary states. These are by far the majority of the cases, when mechanical methods of transcendence are used, especially emergent when people push their bodies (and minds) beyond the capacity of their awareness to contain transcendent states.

I think Gurdjieff's view is based on the understanding that when awareness develops, the body will respond naturally, so it's best to throw the whole kundalini concept out the window.

Personally, I think he was trying to protect seekers from misunderstandings surrounding this phenomenon, considering it erroneous when one completely avoids mechanical methods of transcendence.

In doing so, he may have thrown out the baby with the bathwater, because psycho-physiological responses to stimuli leading to self-transcendence can also be a gradual process of adjustment.

Denying it just to be on the safe side might deprive us of a chance to understand our own development. There is also the case where there are gaps between development of awareness and the capacity of our psycho-physiological to respond to that awareness. These can be experienced as crises, and resistance to the elimination of programming because the lower centres cannot relate to unconditioned states.

Eventually, we accommodate and adapt, but this can be a rough ride. It pays to be aware of kundalini as the adaptation dynamics of our bodies.

kenlee said:
With Kundalini real transformations become imaginary ones, and the essential and non-essential cannot be differentiated from one another. Under the power of Kundalini the essential becomes a kind of 'pseudo essentiality' since the mind can become so deluded it can lose its power of discrimination so as to make realistic distinctions between outer form and inner content.
This can be true, but is not always the rule. Kundalini is the response of the material nature of the individual to the forces of creative transcendence. It varies greatly with each individual.

It is, furthermore, misleading to think that this experience is always a one shot deal. That is the mistake of many who have experienced psycho-physiological responses, and concluded that they crossed some "great threshold".

Ideally, these experiences come in cycles as one grows within. Sometimes there are initial experiences of acute adjustment that can lead to imbalance when one is not conscious enough or when the body is not strong enough to handle the consciousness.

Kundalini in its harmonized form represents the marriage of the body's sentience with mind-transcendent consciousness. After initial "breakthrough" experiences, the process of increase in consciousness, and subsequent response and marriage of higher and lower, can be almost unnoticeable. When we confront points of high inertia and resistance, however, it can become acute no matter what our stage.

Sometimes, an initial experience is considered "final", especially if it is profound, and the body is inhibited from responding further. Consciousness can then increase, and depersonalisation of self can occur, where emotions, desires and instincts seem to be controlled, but are instead shut off. The "enlightened" being then is "liberated" from the lower self, and goes off to teach others to do the same.

This shift from essential to pseudo-essentiality can occur when the lower nature does not ground the higher one, and consciousness has little sense of physicality. It can also occur when the lower nature is mechanically stimulated to exceed awareness potential, so the corresponding bridegroom is not spirit, but programming. Then we end up "divinising" programming, and become deluded.

kenlee said:
The pseudo essential is different from the non-essential. In order to recognize the non-essential one must also recognize the essential. But under the spell of Kundalini one loses the ability to make such real distinctions.
Again, this demonization of Kundalini was probably intended to take emphasis away from the lower nature, and mechanical means of stimulating it. Kundalini, however, is a word here that is falsely applied to what constitutes a symptomology of psychoses due to internal imbalances.

Many reactions of mild psychopathy in seekers can be kundalini experiences where the psycho-physiology of the seeker (rooted in his/her biochemical make-up) is trying to rid itself of formations and addictive responses, similar to running a fever, only here the clash is within the very identity, and neural circuitry and biochemical responses of the seeker.

kenlee said:
Under the power of Kundalini the essential reality does not really become non-reality but rather the real becomes a pseudo reality, reflecting the form of reality without its essential content. A good example of a person living in this pseudo essential world are George Bush with his Christian fundamentalism and in the occult 'magick' of Vincent Bridges and those like him (The Adventures Series describes this well).
What is described here is the psycho-physiological response of a psychopath substituting deluded awareness for objective consciousness. Although some psychopaths are individuated (and these I think are not true psychopaths, but distorters of natural empathy toward what might be called an extreme STS orientation), these are probably a minority.

Most are probably "failed OP's". Maybe psychopaths form a schizoid group soul complex, and through this they can recognize each other. Anyway, even a failed OP can stimulate psycho-physiological overload.

On the other hand, I doubt that either G.W.B or V.B. experienced anything close to a healthy kundalini experience, although VB's apparent fear of interdimensional states does indicate he may have had some sort of imbalanced internal response stimulated by his occult dabblings.
 
Kenlee said:
So in a sense we are all 'nincompoops' who are choosing to learn how to be non-nincompoops. But the nincompoop in us may not like it.

I thought a nincompoop was a man who has never seen his spouse's genitals...
:P
 
I have noticed that meditation with seed (with regards to focusing on something) is beneficial for me. The system i use is from the higher balance institute. It involves focusing on the 3 main chakras thus balancing ones physical emotional and mental centres, while at the same time, providing fuel for the energy body. It honestly does have a balancing effect on the individual.
You guys who are interested in starting out some form of meditation should try this out. I know the website has some outstanding claims, but it's the results we are after anyways, so i think it's worth a shot.

Another form of meditation i find useful is the Hemi-sync meditation. The focus of this one is different. it is to contact and receive guidance from one's higher self.

Qi Gong is another form of meditation which i am interested in, but i would like to find a good teacher in the east london area.

IMHO i think chakra meditation is an excellent form of 'seed' meditation because, one can focus on the major chakras and balance them out. Whereas if one is an intellectual or 'mental' individual, then focusing on words or thoughts can just strengthen an already strong center.

Just my thoughts.

Anyone, please feel free to provide feedback.
 
wilecoyote said:
IMHO i think chakra meditation is an excellent form of 'seed' meditation because, one can focus on the major chakras and balance them out. Whereas if one is an intellectual or 'mental' individual, then focusing on words or thoughts can just strengthen an already strong center.
Just my thoughts.

Anyone, please feel free to provide feedback.
I really don't have anything bad to say about meditation. In fact I went to an esoteric group a little while ago that I guess you could say specialized in meditation. I found it relaxing and didn't really have a problem with it. I left the group because I came to the conclusion that they were simply spending all their time contemplating their "bellybuttons" and they were simply ignoring the world around them.

I remember one day I was speaking to the instructor. The instructor and his wife were teaching meditation for close to 30 years. I brought up the subject of politics and talked a little about 9/11 and hinted to him that, perhaps, at best, our government just let 9/11 happen and at worst, elements within our own government were actually actively involved in 9/11 at some level in its planning. I also mentioned chemtrails since we were, at that time, being bombarded very, very, heavily with all that stuff. I may be wrong but I think I may have even noticed a dog or two in the street noticing these dang chemtrails. All the instructor had to do is look out the window and look for himself. But he never noticed. He then reacted strongly to what I said about 9/11 and he basically said that those who think that there was government complicity in this event need to have their heads examined. This is a man who spent 30 years meditating! He could not even see what I said as a possibility. Now what was he doing with all this awareness that he was amassing? Heck, he couldn't even notice these most obvious things that were threatening to his own safety.

However, I'm not saying that meditation is bad. It can be helpful but I found out that it does not mean it makes you more objective. A scientist can meditate but that does not mean he can do good science.

Here's one form of meditation that I found in a handbook on survival skills (fwiw). It's no big deal but I think its a good way to relax. It says:

Relaxation

Relaxation techniques are excellent tools for helping you cope with the stress of survival.
The easiest to master is simple breathing meditation, such as the kind used in Buddhism
and other contemplative religions. Breathing based meditation has clear benefits. During a meditative state, the rate of the heart beats slow down and blood pressure drops, both inducing a sense of peace and improving composure and concentration. To perform breathing relaxation, find a safe, quiet place, sit down, and close your eyes. Direct all
your concentration on to the sound and sensation of your breathing. Breathe slowly and deeply, drawing the air in through the nose, then expelling it slowly through the mouth. If your attention wanders, which it will, simply bring it back to your breathing. Do this exercise only for 5 minutes and when you stop you should have a renewed sense of peace as well as the ability to think more clearly about your situation.
 
Meditators have been tested using MRI scanning. In all cases, there was a consistent increase in brain activity on the average more than non meditators. There was even found to be an increase in synapse connections. Basically, when you consistently focus in a certain way you increase your capability to focus in that way.

When you quiet the mind, you end up with a quiet mind. When you focus the mind, you end up with a focused mind. That's it. Garbage in, garbage out. The point is to also use that enhanced awareness to get outside the box, not to use it to justify the box in a more elaborate way. We've all seen Mr. Universe types. All they do is flex in front of a mirror. Aside from acting, their enhanced strength is usually not applied to anything more than showing off, unless they don't win that competition money and have to get a job.

The same with meditation. If the only thing a meditator can do is more meditation, then what do they gain? Most people who meditate actually do so without the most basic elements: The aspiration and conviction to be whole, real and examples of the truth they are supposed to embody, and the willingness to get beyond the method, and grasp the meaning underlying it.
 
I find i have different flavors of meditation that i use depending on the situation. The empty mind meditation is something i like to use before sleep and i find it helps me drift off much more quickly. I've noticed i'll have feelings in this state which i can recall the flavor of, but not the content. For example i thought once that i had experienced communicating with myself in the past (earilier that day) and had an "Ah so that's what i feels like" but when i awoke the next morning could not recall the details of the experience nor why i had felt that way.

"With seed" is something i do more rarely, but generally apply it to a concept that i know is key, but i also know im not getting in its full depth of meaning. For example, when i have a dream or experience that clicks off my "spider-sense" i repeat it over and over focusing on different details, the images as well as the feelings, the motion of the individuals, etc. And find that each aspect may deliever new meaning to the experience which brings with it new understanding and growth.

Energy work is another form of meditation, and for me its like playing with invisible tendrils of a charged ephemeral liquid. It's a much more "conscious" meditation, my eyes may be opened and i may flex and relax a range of muscles to induce the desired effects. Now that i type it i guess its really isnt meditation, but since im focusing on moving invisible energies it requires visualization and feeling thus allowing me to focus on my actions and silencing the randomness of my thoughts.

Martial arts is also in the same category, its concise physical motion and focusing on that motion quiets the mind.

I also get the same feeling while driving @ 100+ mph, i think it has to do with the concentration required to manuver at those speeds.
 
EsoQuest said:
When you quiet the mind, you end up with a quiet mind. When you focus the mind, you end up with a focused mind. That's it. Garbage in, garbage out. The point is to also use that enhanced awareness to get outside the box, not to use it to justify the box in a more elaborate way. We've all seen Mr. Universe types. All they do is flex in front of a mirror. Aside from acting, their enhanced strength is usually not applied to anything more than showing off, unless they don't win that competition money and have to get a job.

The same with meditation. If the only thing a meditator can do is more meditation, then what do they gain? Most people who meditate actually do so without the most basic elements: The aspiration and conviction to be whole, real and examples of the truth they are supposed to embody, and the willingness to get beyond the method, and grasp the meaning underlying it.
I agree and this is the fundamental problem that I've had with many of the technology based meditations. "Meditate as deeply as a zen monk" - so what? It's like saying that the deeper we can concentrate the more spiritually evolved we are or something. Focus does not equal wisdom. It's like having a jet airplane but no destination. That being said when there is a point to it besides focus for the sake of focus it's a great tool.
 
I meditate when I have a problem that needs to be solved - (or dismissed as irrelevant) - in order to get new ideas. Or I meditate when I have no prolems to solve - in order to see new problems that need to be solved.

I meditate while walking when my thoughts walk with me.

I do not meditate in order to meditate, because there are problems that need to be solved and there is so little time.

****
Added after some meditation on what I wrote above :)

The very concept of a "problem" is something interesting. I do not think inanimate Nature has any problems. "Problems" and the need to "solve them" is the unique and quite an important function of "life". Perhaps that is what defines life? That is my working hypothesis.
 
Ark said:
The very concept of a "problem" is something interesting. I do not think inanimate Nature has any problems. "Problems" and the need to "solve them" is the unique and quite an important function of "life". Perhaps that is what defines life? That is my working hypothesis.
Now that you have mentioned it I recalled something from Hub's materials:

Scn Axiom 39: "LIFE POSES PROBLEMS FOR ITS OWN SOLUTION"

The question arises - if someone hasn't any problems - is he still alive? :D Is such state even possible?
 
j0da said:
The question arises - if someone hasn't any problems - is he still alive? :D Is such state even possible?
Once all problems have been resolved, there is no need to still be in this density. We move up to higher densities to do the necessary evolutionary work there.

I recently have been getting a really strong sense about the importance of learning the lessons in this density that I am supposed to.
 
Although meditation is good for you and can help with both mental and spiritual development of one's self i think it is important to remeber that the best way to develop spiritually would be to strive for it with effort.
Giving your all into personal development(which includes spiritual) by things like working on your virtues, gaining displine, mastering a art or a skill/s, learning and also learning to survie(including in the wilderness alone which would include finding ones own food) all conditions and to try to make one self thrive in all kinds conditions (pshical, mental, emotional, spiritual, social).

It would be through using the about ways that i think a person would best develop in every way and meditation would help if included because it can relax, strenghten and focus the mind so that oneself maybe be have to continue following their path of development
 

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