The Ladies of the Rope by William Patrick Patterson

I got inspired to make this topic from this line:

These Old Testament stories," noted Gurdjieff,"can be more important than all the words of Jesus Christ.

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I'm pretty sure Gurdjieff did study with a christian priest but from what I have read the bible is not mentioned too much by gurdjieff. A few times Jesus, and "esoteric christianity," also contemporary christianity 'religion', but not the bible too much.

Anyways I am really loving this book and am going to try to come back and write down some quotes that I find interesting. There are these brilliant women who are living asleep, and then are awakened by Gurdjieff. It is truly fascinating. the women who studied with gurdjieff were some of very few students to read drafts of Beelzebub's Tales. Working through that myself ( thought I took a break) its very interesting when certain chapters are referenced.

There is so many good quotes that have really made me think. some by gurdjieff and some by Orage. Orage seemed like a smart guy though he abandoned the work.

William Paterson quotes a lot from the woman's journals, notes, books which is very nice. also he reprints much of the women's notes on gurdjieff. he really brings you into the scene nicely. adds some clarification. he does provide some analysis but this is mostly for the lay reader. and as you would guess it doesn't really work effectively and he admits this, because there is not such a way that you can introduce the teaching of gurdjieff easily in a few pages. or so I believe. It has so be "experienced."

One of my projects is to go through this forum to learn what others are thinking on the William patrick Paterson. there is no thread dedicated to him but a lot discussion. I really was going to wait to make a thread on this book till doing that. but as I have little control over myself I just couldn't do that.

I do think some of the quotes especially from gurdjieff may not be actual but "reconstructions" like Ouspensky did in ISOTM. gurdjieff's broken english is evident in the book. I can't quite make up my mind if patterson is somewhat giving him this voice or this is how gurdjieff spoke. I know his english was broken or poor (not to say the meaning that he conveyed suffered because of this) but I wonder if he spoke french or english to the women or a combination of both.

you know, I really think I would like to take the time to explore the more dense threads here on the Work and gurdjieff... but i have not. anyways I will post this. I have no one to talk to the book about. I told my mom a bit and my brother. I have the desire to express to others what I'm reading. :/

wetroof said:

I do think some of the quotes especially from gurdjieff may not be actual but "reconstructions" like Ouspensky did in ISOTM. gurdjieff's broken english is evident in the book. I can't quite make up my mind if patterson is somewhat giving him this voice or this is how gurdjieff spoke. I know his english was broken or poor (not to say the meaning that he conveyed suffered because of this) but I wonder if he spoke french or english to the women or a combination of both.

you know, I really think I would like to take the time to explore the more dense threads here on the Work and gurdjieff... but i have not. anyways I will post this. I have no one to talk to the book about. I told my mom a bit and my brother. I have the desire to express to others what I'm reading. :/

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Hi wetroof. Sounds like a fun project! I look forward to reading what you have to say about the book (I haven't read it yet).

As for the language comments above, I do know that Gurdjieff spoke broken English with Kathryn Hulme, and probably other Rope members. Hulme mentions in her book how they would try as hard as they could to remember word for word what G said to them, then they'd run home, write it down, and argue about how accurately they'd remembered. So I think the quotes are probably fairly accurate, but not perfect.

okay, interesting. thanks :).

kind of confirms some of what I was thinking. the last twenty pages or so there is a lot of quotes from Gurdjieff (I guess that one or more of the women wrote down). the broken english, along with weird animal stories/ metaphors/names Gurdjieff uses, and the overuse of the word "merde" to mean just about anything counterproductive to the work, by gurdjieff, makes his whole interaction with the ladies kind of repulsive.



when I get home tonight I am going to take a look at ISOTM. some topics were mentioned which I don't understand. I know the toasting to the idiots was mentioned along with a few other topics.

This is a quote from "Margaret" (cannot recall the last name at the moment). I believe she is primarily referring to herself and Jane heap, perhaps to a few others of the women studying with Gurdjieff.

I'm not sure what the context of the quote is. It is a realization that she had, and wrote down, I believe. Patterson introduces the quote saying "finally she began to see."

Margaret writes--

page 117 said:

Our imaginations had been the excess of desire over ability. Our intelligence had been merely a justification of this excess. Our intense emotions had amounted to the pleasure of having emotions. Our art had been a hope of repeating those emotions forever. Our "rich" personalities had been an obstacle to understanding these facts. We who had been born outside the dull, the routine, the conflicting; we the convinced, the convincing; we the inspired, the insprirng--what had we been all our lives? Almost nothing at all"

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I'm not what sure else to add. Patterson devotes 50 or so pages to writing about Margaret's life before she met Gurdjieff, so I can probably understand this quote easier than some of you. at the same time I cannot really explain or add anything to it.

Margaret throughout the book so far is portrayed in conflict with Gurdjieff's teaching. I think this is a smart and true realization while she appears in struggle. She is writing as if this old self is behind her--and she is someone else.

I think I risk running in circles trying to analyze or think about this quote by her. she is definitely the "literary" type even after working with gurdjieff--and the quote above just seems kind of wordy.

It's really interesting how a person like Margaret could become enthralled with Gurdjieff. I would like these artistic type wouldn't have a chance. One of the concepts which I really took hold of in ISOTM is "objective art". I felt had been waiting my whole life for someone to assure me all these paintings and sculptures in modern art museums are worthless. it made a lot of sense to me immediately.

Margaret says "our art had been a hope of repeating those emotions forever". She is saying that her life was all about her self - gratification. "desire over ability" and she uses the word ability in a gurdjieff sense as in the ability "to do". If I had more quotes to work of, I may be able to come up with something more intriguing. I find the change in Margaret fascinating.

page118 said:

Someone mentioned "our 5 senses."
"Five senses?" said Gurdjieff "how you tell--senses? Firstly, is not sense. Secondly, you have more than five. Sense means sensation. you have not word in English for what I mean--feeling-with-sensation. Kanari [outer-animal name for Solita], what would be word?
"I don't know"
"But try--say what word you think."
"Would 'contact' have your meaning?"
"No. With eyes I see you and you see me. But unless I wish, you not have contact with me. Svolosh language, your English. [Svolosh is Russian for garbage pail].

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"contact" I guess implies some sort of being connection to Gurdjieff. when he says sensation, I do think he is referring to the different way humans interpret stimuli.

This quote appealed to me just because of the frustrations I have with English language. Not that I know any other languages, but it can be so hard to communicate sometimes. for example the phenomenon Gurdjieff notes in ISOTM of one person saying one thing--the other person agreeing, though they both take the words to mean different things. Also, of how each person has a multitude of different associations with any given word. this is our 3d existence though :) can't complain I guess..

I have heard that other languages make more sense I guess in an "objective" way. or spiritual way. probably pre Latin then. I really don't know much 'bout language or etymology though.


there is a lot more parts which I have liked so far. reading back through helps me go at a slower pace. and I get more joy from it i.e I'm not going to read it in a day then "toss it". well i feel it would be rude of me to do that. it's like I could read through this whole book and not comprehend anything. A lot of me is fascinated with Gurdjieff himself and his life--not the teaching, so that is the kind of thing I would do. expend it in a day.

edit: looking over my post, when i get the chance I think I will try and minimize my words, and type some longer parts up.

"We are nearly in despair. Yesterday and today and the days to come are the worst in my life… He's wearing his best suit, bought for the American trip. He is lying on a divan covered to the throat with a pale coverture which is piled with red roses, pink orchids, white flowers; on either side of his head are two enormous bouquets of violets. The chapel is lighted with candles. His face is like a statue's… Madame de Salzmann has been absolutely superb. At the service yesterday she sat hear his head with white face closed eyes from which the tears slowly flowed… the grieff is terrible, silent, and has a really objective quality of dignity. Of my own grief I will not speak; it is a small part of the common catastrophe. I shall always be grateful to those powers that allowed me to be here to see him before he went away from the planet earth. But I shall never be able to describe the noble beauty of his dead face."

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I believe a woman named Solita writes this letter to two others in another part of france. I read about 5 pages yesterday and this is where I ended. Reading this book can be really dissociative (like I am IN france/USA experiencing the words) and last night I felt really strong emotions. I wasn't crying fully but basically there. the book really impacts me. before reading this book I already had a strong resonation with how I interpret his teachings so I think that is part of my emotions. I don't know, perhaps if I read a book about Gandhi's life I could be impacted in a profound way also. I cannot remember having feels so strong reading any other book though and I have read a book or two about Gandhi.

I still have 50 more pages to read. mostly a "wind-down" I think as Patterson reconstructs the endings or "conclusions" of people's life after Gurdjieff.

There have been some passages (quite a few) that were interesting to me. I want to go back and transcribe a few. probably soon.

Hi wetroof,

Your quote is from Margaret Anderson. She wrote "The Unknowable Gurdjieff", which can be found here.

There is a collection of photographs of Margaret Anderson and those who were part of the film of her life, including a wonderful portrait of Solita Solana in the Bernecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library at Yale. I hope you enjoy the photographs and Margaret Anderson's book. :)

The link you give takes me to the yale library website but that is it. I think the problem may be I have to register.

Patterson says that the excerpt I copied on the death of Gurdjieff was written by Solita. In the sources part he says the quote comes out of "Unknowable Gurdjieff". from the page I took the quote from, Patterson describes that Margaret read the letter, which was from Solita to Dorothy.

By the way I was incorrect in the previous post because I just realized Margaret was in America at the time of receiving the letter.

wetroof said:

The link you give takes me to the yale library website but that is it. I think the problem may be I have to register.

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Click on "see all images" at the top of the page. I found an incompatability with the first link, so I hope this helps.

Yes, you are right. The quote is in Margaret Anderson's book "The Unknowable Gurdjieff", but attributed to Solita Solana.

Thank you for sharing with me those photos go2. Some of the photos in the beginning of the archive are particularly nice. I kind of skimmed some of the latter ones. One or two of those photos are in the book by Patterson and some others of Margaret Anderson. Both you and he thought the photos intriguing I guess. It is nice to see the photos of the women and gurdjieff which Patterson distributes throughout the text.

I'm interested how you knew where the quote came from. I'm guessing you probably read "unknowable gurdjieff". Is there any comments you have on Margaret? don't give me any if its not suitable.

Hi wetroof,

I have read The Unknowable Gurdjieff twice in the last two years and I do recall the vivid passage describing Mr. Gurdjieff`s death and funeral. It took me a while to answer your query as Margaret`s experience of the Work resonated strongly with my own. Why is that? It is not like other books by Mr. Gurdjieff`s students in that it contains very little knowledge of theory and method, or how she heard and remembered Mr. Gurdjieff`s words. She simply recounts her struggle to turn knowledge into understanding. She is sincere...not puffed up. She simply had a deep and abidding wish to understand the meaning and significance of life.

She has a quality which I wish for myself, she did not pretend or lie to appear to be more or understand more than she did. She is often frustrated when other students seem to get it so quickly and she cannot understand. Mr. Gurdjieff replied, in response to her frustration, he who goes slow goes far. I am away from the book, but I do recall a thought from The Unknowable Gurdjieff that hasn`t left me. To understand the meaning and significance of life, you must be born again!

Now, back to the question of my resonance with Margaret Anderson`s writings. I think her center of gravity is the emotional center. I always thought I was centered in the thinking brain, but I begin to wonder if this has been compensation or adjustment to the world and the time in which I exist. I wonder if deeper, I am a man centered in the emotional being. This possibility occurred to me as I wondered why I would resonate with Margaret`s work or Gurdjieff`s Tales more than Ouspensky`s Search for example· I would be interested in other`s insight on this topic.

:)

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