How to eat paleo/keto and gain weight?

Sorry if there's a thread on this, i couldn't find it.

Here's the deal- I'm 6'1/2" or 182cm tall, and my weight has stayed between 66Kg-70Kg since I was 16 or so. I have a large frame (big-boned) combined with rather ropy musculature. Technically, I am only a few Kg underweight, so this is not a health issue. However, it isn't really a vanity issue either. I would really like to be able to put on 5-10 Kg, preferably of muscle, but I would be happy with a pound or two of fat (I'm all lean meat! )
This would give me a much larger "buffer" to live off in times when i couldn't eat (famine or illness). I would also be slightly more pleased with my body if it were just a teensy bit more muscular

The history: For a start, my metabolism seems to be the biological equivalent of a blast furnace. It seems no matter how much I eat, the excess just burns off. (This may have something to do with adrenal fatigue/constantly active HPA axis?) I have tried working out (got stronger but not bigger or heavier), hard labour with much heavy lifting/carrying (same deal plus a tan), protein/weight gain supplement every day; I used to regularly eat a whole deep pan pizza, whole chicken, double plate of spag bol or lasagne for dinner, after 1-2 bowls of muesli or weet-bix for brekky and 2-3 meat & salad rolls for lunch. After discovering SotT and all the diet knowledge there, I tried a meat diet for about 8 months (that was fun ) having grilled steak with HEAPS of my garlic herb and turmeric butter twice a day (I still have this regularly- Delicious ;D)

Next idea is to make a batch of Fat Bomb Keto Custard and kinda pig out on it while still having my steaks and such. I have read about some different exercise techniques I have yet to try, such as the 30 second sprint, 90 second walk (x7) once per week that is supposed to maximise HGH production and the method of lowering more than you can raise, utilising all four types of muscle fibre.

Just to clarify: I don't want to put on slabs of muscle. I just want to break the 70Kg barrier, if I can. 75Kg-80Kg would be great.

As always, all comments are welcome.

lol. I understand your situation Fester. My other half has the same "problem". He could eat an entire cow and not gain an ounce. Working out for him was a big chore and at one point (way before we were keto) he was eating every two hours. He had all the muscles but he was miserable and not healthy on the inside. It may sound silly-but maybe you're just not meant to be big?

While we are all working through personal vanity programs and feel that we may want to look a certain way, the important thing is to be healthy on the inside. Regardless of what we wish to be on the outside. Plenty of marathon runners or body builders look "healthy" on the outside but their insides are a dreadful mess.

Have you been doing any blood work? Monitoring your blood sugar levels or ketones? Reading Maria Emmerich's book "Keto Adapted" goes over some exercise suggestions and there are certainly plenty of exercise threads on the forum.
And as you mentioned: fat bombs are a great way to get extra fat in.
Have you done any specific diet research on exactly how much fat you should be consuming?

I'm sorry that I don't have any specific ground breaking solution-other than to say that your health on the inside is more important than how you look on the outside.

Hey Fester,
If you are currently keto-adapted, you could try increasing your fat-protein ratio.

So instead of 3:1 fat-protein ratio, you could go 4 or higher until you find a steady ratio. Also resistance training might help, as well as reading up through various books on keto-adaptation. Assuming your fat intake is not already in that range.

The fat bombs are a great idea! But on the whole, I agree with Magpie; being healthy on the inside is more important.

Also being skinny I still haven't worked this on out, but I can echo what the others have said - it's about being healthy more than anything.
Having said that, a few things do seem to help. Firstly being properly keto adapted (limited/no carbs, limited protein, lots of fat) helps a lot. Add to that the high intensity exercise, cold showers and occasional intermittent fasting - all of those actually seem to increase weight a little.

Magpie said:

lol. I understand your situation Fester. My other half has the same "problem". He could eat an entire cow and not gain an ounce. Working out for him was a big chore and at one point (way before we were keto) he was eating every two hours. He had all the muscles but he was miserable and not healthy on the inside. It may sound silly-but maybe you're just not meant to be big?

While we are all working through personal vanity programs and feel that we may want to look a certain way, the important thing is to be healthy on the inside. Regardless of what we wish to be on the outside. Plenty of marathon runners or body builders look "healthy" on the outside but their insides are a dreadful mess.

Have you been doing any blood work? Monitoring your blood sugar levels or ketones? Reading Maria Emmerich's book "Keto Adapted" goes over some exercise suggestions and there are certainly plenty of exercise threads on the forum.
And as you mentioned: fat bombs are a great way to get extra fat in.
Have you done any specific diet research on exactly how much fat you should be consuming?

I'm sorry that I don't have any specific ground breaking solution-other than to say that your health on the inside is more important than how you look on the outside.

Click to expand...

Yeah I think you maybe right, that I'm genetically set for 65-70Kg for life. I don't really care how i look to others, but i can't deny that I would be pleased to see a little more meat in the mirror on the odd times I look at one.
As far as my health is concerned, I've always had a robust immune system and good health. I've had no problems adapting my diet to whatever I choose, but I have noticed the sort of "clarity" that comes with the paleo diet. I can't be completely keto adapted yet, as I'm sure I have more than 70g of carbs fairly often (tea with sugar, chocolate, beer) but that's what the idea with the fat bombs is about, going keto. At least for a while.
Blood work? No, I'm doing everything by feel, so to speak.
I'm fairly well practiced at listening to my body, and it's my habit to experiment with new knowledge (within reason). For instance, I went on the (nearly) all meat diet for about 8 months, felt great. I may have been in full ketosis for extended periods of that time, i don't know. About 6 months after that (all the while using a cast iron frypan) i found out about hyperchromatosis, so went and donated blood to check my hemoglobin levels. As i expected, they were quite high (179 g/L) and since then i've been keeping it between 140 and 165 b donating blood every 3-6 months. That's all the bloodwork I've done.

SMM said:

Hey Fester,
If you are currently keto-adapted, you could try increasing your fat-protein ratio.

So instead of 3:1 fat-protein ratio, you could go 4 or higher until you find a steady ratio. Also resistance training might help, as well as reading up through various books on keto-adaptation. Assuming your fat intake is not already in that range.

The fat bombs are a great idea! But on the whole, I agree with Magpie; being healthy on the inside is more important.

Click to expand...

Yeah I was thinking that might encourage my body to store a little extra protein. Again, I'm not bothered if it doesn't work- it's an experiment, so I can't leave it alone until i've tried everything
As far as i can tell, i'm pretty healthy. Probably healthier than I should be :P

RedFox said:

Also being skinny I still haven't worked this on out, but I can echo what the others have said - it's about being healthy more than anything.
Having said that, a few things do seem to help. Firstly being properly keto adapted (limited/no carbs, limited protein, lots of fat) helps a lot. Add to that the high intensity exercise, cold showers and occasional intermittent fasting - all of those actually seem to increase weight a little.

Click to expand...

COLD SHOWERS?!!? nooooooooooo.....



I love hot water, but cold water I'm like a cat to any water

However, I know I gotta stop being such a p... uh, wimp, grow a pair and just do it. I know I can get used to it, I've done it before. Before I knew it has health benefits.

Thanks for the feedback, it was pretty much what I was expecting to hear, just makin sure tho

When i started low carb at 2011 and then paleo/ketogenic diet at 2012 my weight went down from about 95kg to 75kg. I'm 185cm tall, so i was quite skinny. I then started doing resistance training two times per week and my weight went up to about 83kg. It has stayed there since, even i haven't been doing resistance training much for several months now.

Fester said:

Yeah I think you maybe right, that I'm genetically set for 65-70Kg for life. I don't really care how i look to others, but i can't deny that I would be pleased to see a little more meat in the mirror on the odd times I look at one.
As far as my health is concerned, I've always had a robust immune system and good health. I've had no problems adapting my diet to whatever I choose, but I have noticed the sort of "clarity" that comes with the paleo diet. I can't be completely keto adapted yet, as I'm sure I have more than 70g of carbs fairly often (tea with sugar, chocolate, beer) but that's what the idea with the fat bombs is about, going keto. At least for a while.

Click to expand...

Well first of all, get rid of the sugar completely for a while (switch to xylitol perhaps). It could be contributing to some kind of gut dysbiosis.
How often do you have tea/chocolate? The caffeine (adrenal stimulant) works as not only an appetite suppressant, but basically boosts your metabolism as well. How do you feel when you come off all caffeine for 2-3 days?
And beer is a no-no. if you're basically still eating gluten then you're missing the foundation, and the problem may just be as simple as that. If you must drink then unsweetened spirits and dry white wine are usually the best options, but alcohol won't help.

I also just found this podcast that you might find interesting (I haven't listened yet) _http://robbwolf.com/2010/05/25/the-paleolithic-solution-episode-29/

Blood work? No, I'm doing everything by feel, so to speak.
I'm fairly well practiced at listening to my body, and it's my habit to experiment with new knowledge (within reason). For instance, I went on the (nearly) all meat diet for about 8 months, felt great. I may have been in full ketosis for extended periods of that time, i don't know. About 6 months after that (all the while using a cast iron frypan) i found out about hyperchromatosis, so went and donated blood to check my hemoglobin levels. As i expected, they were quite high (179 g/L) and since then i've been keeping it between 140 and 165 b donating blood every 3-6 months. That's all the bloodwork I've done.

Click to expand...

You could also try some hormonal tests if possible, find out how your Testosterone levels are doing.

COLD SHOWERS?!!? nooooooooooo.....



I love hot water, but cold water I'm like a cat to any water

However, I know I gotta stop being such a p... uh, wimp, grow a pair and just do it. I know I can get used to it, I've done it before. Before I knew it has health benefits.

Click to expand...

It is awful at first, and only gets marginally better. Still, it's totally worth doing, even as just an exercise in discipline :).

Carlisle said:

COLD SHOWERS?!!? nooooooooooo.....



I love hot water, but cold water I'm like a cat to any water

However, I know I gotta stop being such a p... uh, wimp, grow a pair and just do it. I know I can get used to it, I've done it before. Before I knew it has health benefits.

Click to expand...

It is awful at first, and only gets marginally better. Still, it's totally worth doing, even as just an exercise in discipline :).

Click to expand...

You can try deep belly breathing and conscious relaxation of the muscles while doing the cold shower. It really helps me to control the "flight reflex". With this method I can stay under the cold shower for a longer time - when I do it right, I sometimes don't feel the cold at all! I must admit though that it doesn't always work, especially in winter, since the body really tends to switch to panic mode and hyperventilation when the water is really cold :O I wouldn't want to miss the cold shower, it really seems to help in many ways.

I have the same metabolism as you, Fester, but after about 2 months of fat-bombs and some manual work around the yard and house, I gained 5 kilos and muscles too, a ha!

I don't get obsessive with working out or the amount of protein I eat. What works for me is to consume as much protein as makes me feel full, and have a fat bomb a day. I never got into gym work, and I prefer to get my exercise from doing things that need doing in the house or the yard. And since this year I had a lot of painting, fixing, planting, wood stacking and other house/garden related stuff, at the time that I started with the fat-bombs, it helped immensely.

And I agree with Carlise, ditch the beer. You are not even paleo or gluten-free when consuming beer, you are actually causing a lot of stress on your body by drinking it, and with sugar too. It's delicious-fruit season right now, and there are some cherries and berries I can't resist, soon come the figs, but if I eat more than a couple, it takes me a few days to get back to feeling normal again (sugar usually ups my anxiety and increases my "crazy energy levels"). I also noticed the paradoxical thing, that by eating carbs I don't gain weight at all. So, if by the sounds of it you have a similar metabolism as me, eat your meat, go for a fat bomb cup a day, get rid of sugars and beer, go as low as you can on the carb intake in general, and do some weight-lifting exercise (or house/yard work). That ought to do it. IT worked for me and it was by accident, I had stopped hoping to get some weight by that time, because nothing in the past ever worked. Good luck!

You can try deep belly breathing and conscious relaxation of the muscles while doing the cold shower. It really helps me to control the "flight reflex". With this method I can stay under the cold shower for a longer time - when I do it right, I sometimes don't feel the cold at all! I must admit though that it doesn't always work, especially in winter, since the body really tends to switch to panic mode and hyperventilation when the water is really cold :O I wouldn't want to miss the cold shower, it really seems to help in many ways.

Click to expand...

There is a quote from a book I've been reading now, The Master of Lucid Dreaming, by Olga Kharitidi, about pure movements(conscious) and movements complicated by memory burden:

In pure movements, all the energy you need is free and available to you. In complicated movements you have to carry, along with your body, a huge weight of mental constructs. That's why some experiences are very difficult to complete. They keep coming back to you because you can't accomplish the movement since you have too much memory weight attached to them."

Click to expand...

I could see this difference when entering in cold water without anticipating about how I will feel, will I be cold etc. In that moment the body adjusted by itself and could stay in water. But when I was anticipating too much about how it will be, the water felt even more cold and making me keeping of from it. This quote is useful in a lot of experiences.

Fester said:

Just to clarify: I don't want to put on slabs of muscle. I just want to break the 70Kg barrier, if I can. 75Kg-80Kg would be great.

As always, all comments are welcome.

Click to expand...

There was a quote in 'Life Without Bread' where the author talks about it being much harder to gain weight than to lose weight. I can't find my book at the moment so I can't tell you exactly what was said but if I remember correctly it can take a year of more before slender guys like ourselves begin to put on weight.

I'm in the same boat but I've always been pretty athletic so it hasn't really bothered me. I do prefer being agile and quick rather than big and bulky. But as you say, a few kilos of extra muscle wouldn't hurt ;)

I found my book:

[quote author=Life Without Bread p.144]
The low-carbohydrate program augments the anabolic processes that contribute to increased body mass in the form of bone density, muscle, and connective tissue. But the underweight person must be diligent. It takes some time to begin to see the benefit of weight gain. Usually thin people experience a loss of weight during the first few months on the diet. This eventually gives way to increased body mass as the production of growth hormone eventually increases, and the nutrients needed to build tissue (fat and protein) are consumed. Over a long period of time, from one to two years, they will eventually reach a larger body mass compared to when they began the low-carbohydrate program. The new weight, however, will be in all the right places.
[/quote]

edgitarra said:

luc said:

You can try deep belly breathing and conscious relaxation of the muscles while doing the cold shower. It really helps me to control the "flight reflex". With this method I can stay under the cold shower for a longer time - when I do it right, I sometimes don't feel the cold at all! I must admit though that it doesn't always work, especially in winter, since the body really tends to switch to panic mode and hyperventilation when the water is really cold :O I wouldn't want to miss the cold shower, it really seems to help in many ways.

Click to expand...

There is a quote from a book I've been reading now, The Master of Lucid Dreaming, by Olga Kharitidi, about pure movements(conscious) and movements complicated by memory burden:

In pure movements, all the energy you need is free and available to you. In complicated movements you have to carry, along with your body, a huge weight of mental constructs. That's why some experiences are very difficult to complete. They keep coming back to you because you can't accomplish the movement since you have too much memory weight attached to them."

Click to expand...

I could see this difference when entering in cold water without anticipating about how I will feel, will I be cold etc. In that moment the body adjusted by itself and could stay in water. But when I was anticipating too much about how it will be, the water felt even more cold and making me keeping of from it. This quote is useful in a lot of experiences.

Click to expand...

I can vouch for luc's advice. What I've found useful is consciously relaxing my body and focusing on accepting the cold as a sensation. I think partly we experience it as "painful" not because it is actually hurting us, but because it causes such a rush of information to the brain from the nerves. So mindfully attending to the sensation and consciously relaxing at the same time helps to teach the brain to calm down. I've also found that whether there are carbs in my system is a huge determinant of whether I can bear it or not. Any carbs in my system seem to make it much harder to bear. Remember that alcohol turns to sugar as well.

Another observation: I shower before work, and on days when I was in a hurry, the cold shower was effortless. I was so focused on taking the shower to get to work that I had no time for delay or anticipation, and something about that mental state made the sensation pretty easy to bear. I mean, when it comes down to it, the shower is not harmful to my body and I know this, so if the shower is between me and something important, bearing an unpleasant sensation for a few minutes is nothing. Now of course that (rushing) might be stressful to the nervous system if it happens too often, so I don't know whether this could be turned into a good method for adjusting to cold showers or not, but maybe there's a way to take advantage of this phenomenon in a way that doesn't involve "being chased by a tiger deadline" every time.

Just my twopence. ;)

Fester & JP,

This link http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,35043.new/topicseen.html#new could be what you are looking for, as Laura points out half a cup of the custard bomb per day is enough to maintain weight, if you want to gain weight, then increase your daily intake. They are delicious with minimum carbs, I use the original recipe with coconut cream (Ayam brand from supermarkets), butter (organic from Aldi under $3), Stevia (actually Natvia Aussie brand at supermarkets) and good eggs (yolks only), plus a dash of vanilla essence.

Thanx all :)

You're right, I know I shouldn't be drinking beer. It's hard to say no to a free one, tho but it shouldn't be a problem. I'm making a new batch of lipo vitC today, gonna start taking it again, and I'm going to attempt a batch of fat bombs and then start another bone broth. I reckon I can handle livin on that for quite a while, throwing the odd steak with butter in or suchlike. I have Mg supplements as well.

Incidentally, I'm also going to experiment with sleeping while grounded, see how that works out.

The cold showers? Well as I said, I just hafta quit being such a wimp :P

A year to put on some weight, huh.... sounds reasonable. It also gives me a somewhat more defined reason for sticking to the regimen, as the only reason I have so far is simply to be as healthy as possible, mind body and spirit. A good, but ill-defined goal. "75Kg" is much more definite, and that'd give me about 10Kg of buffer to prevent emaciation in the event of illness or food scarcity.

And once more for those in the cheap seats: Thanks again for all the comments ;D