A Work Poem
- Thread starter obyvatel
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obyvatel
The Living Force
Davida said:
I am doing fine, Davida. Appreciate your concern.
I do not know much about Rene Daumal and have not read any work of his. This poem popped into my radar when someone sent it to me. It did not seem to me like it was the product of a "night of serious drinking".
It does have an introspective flavor which is different from "just do it" and "fake it till you make it". So it may not be useful for people who are in the process of acquiring significant life experiences and have not reached a certain level of maturity in thought and action. But those who have had significant life experiences and might have come close to some kind of inner bankruptcy may find it useful - or so I thought.
Bluelamp said:
On a more positive note, I think the end of personal illusions is the beginning of the end of suffering. I used to read something like this and be filled with morbidity... but now I'm just sort of impartial. Baseline happiness and all that, I think. I don't know what I'm trying to say. There's a lot to be thankful and happy for, in spite of all the darkness... and I don't need to add to the negativity by feeling sorry for myself about being "nothing".
David
Jedi Master
Glade to hear your fine Obyvatel... I think it was the first time you posted something without some context... and in the ‘what’s on your mind’ section.
To me the poem reads like a script, a mantra for self-hypnosis... and that seems opposed to any conscious undertaking, though maybe I’m reading something into it, that’s not there.
The poem has some bite to it, but what’s biting exactly I don’t know, the last line sooths the tension it brings on, and that last line seems as close to a description of the main theme to life...
FWIW somewhat :/
To me the poem reads like a script, a mantra for self-hypnosis... and that seems opposed to any conscious undertaking, though maybe I’m reading something into it, that’s not there.
The poem has some bite to it, but what’s biting exactly I don’t know, the last line sooths the tension it brings on, and that last line seems as close to a description of the main theme to life...
FWIW somewhat :/
obyvatel
The Living Force
Davida said:
Ok, here is how I interpreted parts of the poem.
As far as external things are concerned - money, house, other material possessions etc - we have been conditioned to claim possession of such objects by erecting our flag on them which says "mine". But realistically, we are more like temporary custodians of what we think is ours. If we die tomorrow, our custodianship gets transferred to someone else. Even otherwise, such a transfer happens -- all the time. As for the inner voice which says "but .. I earned it", the following post can provide some context.
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,36129.msg533058.html#msg533058
The above holds true for experience as well.
Quite disconcerting to read, conjuring up nihilistic images. Worse than "having nothing". Like whitecoast wrote
[quote author=whitecoast]
and I don't need to add to the negativity by feeling sorry for myself about being "nothing".
[/quote]
Neuroscience can help in a very nuts and bolts way. There are neural correlates to our sense of self which give rise to "I-Me-Mine". At the same time there are other neural circuits which support a different, more depersonalized view of the world out there. It can be speculated that when the latter circuits take centerstage dethroning the prominence of the "I-me-mine" circuits, there is more "witnessing" or "experiencing" than "me out here with the world out there". It is not like the "self" is a problem - it is more like it is overconditioned and overused. People can - either accidentally or otherwise - come to the state where there is what is inadequately described by "pure experiencing".
As a small illustration towards this point, there are 2 streams of neural processing that activate when we see an object out there. One is self or ego-centric, the other is allo-centric.
From neuroscientist and Zen meditator James Austin
[quote author=James Austin]
Ego-centric Stream
Once that barrage of photons from an apple out there stimulates our retina, these messages rush straight back to that preeminent central configuration we reserve for our physical Self inside mental space. Indeed, each time we ‘‘see things from our standpoint,’’ the midline of our own head and body automatically becomes that long axis back to which the coordinates of these external visual stimuli pointedly refer. We are the physiological terminus for all lines of sight that point back to our body.
This Self-centered mental posture was designed for action. Hard-wired, it was already off to a head start during infancy. Now, as an adult, we find our body leaning forward, hand and arm poised to return the hammerhead to that exact position in space where the nail awaits. During avoidance behaviors we lean back, to escape being hit by a low tree branch.
Whenever we need to focus on the details of each new event—be it a nail or an apple—we narrow the tip of our top-down attention to a sharp point.
Allocentric Stream
Allo- is a term nowhere near as familiar to us as ego. (Recall how much the dictionary favors Self
entries as opposed to other.) However, allo- means ‘‘other’’ (from the Greek allos, other). On these pages, allo- serves to make a crucial distinction. When the visual brain processes an external object allocentrically, it automatically brings into play its second frame of spatial reference. This detached perspective gets off to a much later start, but it can be detected in children between 3 and 5 years of age in the way they play with toys.
Why is this object-centered version so impersonal, so unsentimental? Because other priorities direct its networks. It is, fundamentally, an other-referential perspective. Its first concern is to represent the form of some object ‘‘out there’’ in so categorical a manner that it enables the object itself to be identified. When visual stimuli first arrive from such an object, their messages are processed with reference to their spatial coordinates. These lines seem to stay converged ‘‘out there’’ in their environment, not to refer back toward us, the viewers.{which is what happens in the egocentric processing stream}.
What is the other-referential version of that apple out there? It takes the form of an object that
(1) exists as an independent entity,
(2) already has its own intrinsic midline,
(3) is a co-occupant along with the other items adjacent to it in the surrounding scenery, and
(4) seems innocent of our presence.
Can an object be ‘‘seen,’’ yet be independent of your ‘‘Self?’’ Don’t expect that you can easily comprehend this counterintuitive concept. It is a foreign, ‘‘farout’’ notion to think that any object might appear to manifest its own ‘‘lines of sight.’’
......................................
.. the processing of this extrinsic version of any object does begin independently. But something else happens. Normally, this second, other-centered version will go on silently to join our first Self-centered frame of spatial reference in a merger as complementary as yin and yang. In this ongoing synaptic alchemy, a mosaic of interactions blends two parallel physiologies into a joint working partnership.
Please remember : We are not informed that these visual transformations exist.
They occur subconsciously. Ordinary consciousness remains blissfully unaware that our brain has these two separate versions. It knows only the result after they have merged seamlessly. This fact explains why we’re unable—so long as we remain firmly gripped by the supremacy of our Self-fictions—deliberately to sustain a clear concept of
(1) what allocentric perception alone might feel like, and
(2) how much we are dominated (if not enthralled) by all our Self-referential processing.
Don’t be discouraged when you find it hard to understand what happens during our two normal versions of visual processing. A casual survey of articles published recently shows that researchers also struggle to find words that describe the differences.
[/quote]
If the above sounds a little flaky, there is a lot of dense neuroscientific details and published papers which are trying to make sense of this. The author's interest in the topic comes from his experience as a Zen meditator and his professional training as neuroscientist - so he is braver than others out there in seeing and interpreting similarities between two very different domains.
Anyway, bottomline is that any accidental or otherwise experience of "no-self" need not be depressing if one has the requisite knowledge. It may even be a less burdensome way of living.
Buddy
The Living Force
obyvatel said:
The description may sound a bit flaky, but that may just be because they're trying to explain or illustrate a non-linear or simultaneously reciprocal idea or act on a 2 dimensional chalkboard of the mind. It reads like the old familiar "the seer is the seen" phenomena, describing a single act of perception going at least two ways. 3 to 5 year old children are flexible with their point of view that way...and maybe a few adults.
Whereas Davida speaks of something about a "bite", my first reading simply left me with an impression that something was just a bit off, structurally speaking. The mind wants to fit the poem into a framework of progressive realization that would read as well backwards (layers going on) as forwards (layers coming off). Subsequent readings brings the realization that there's no point in a structural analysis since it likely wasn't crafted for the public to read.
It would seem that this initially preferred reading of the poem might simply be a mental effort on my part to establish an allo-centric relationship within the poem between the author and his 'ultimate realization'. Don't know if that makes sense to anyone.
Thanks for posting!
whitecoast said:
From my perspective, i don't necessarily disagree; i think it's the realisation that what you thought was something is actually nothing, which then contrasts with the blinding possibilities available now that you've come to this understanding. It's like when waking up and realising everything you thought you knew was a lie, well the same realisation seems to happen for the individual too, and their part in the illusion. You feel very much like a blank slate, in keeping with the theories of bankruptcy as has been mentioned.
It's like when a person begins to see objectively they realise in order to progress where they wish to go, they must try to help others, and yet when they go to do it, they realise that actually they're plagued with programs and buffers and wrong information; and they realise that in order to do better, to be better, they have to totally divest themselves of all that went before (figuratively speaking).
I've noticed when trying to help others, how much more work i see is required before i can truly give. Because you realise how complex a task that is, what with your pre-programmed machine. And again in order to realise this you kind of need a comparison of where you want to go (life), to where you've been (nothingness, death).
So it is kind of dark but that's required to contrast with the guiding light (of life) which the prose is referring to. I would say the brevity of the prose allows the reader to project or consider it through certain lenses. Also if someone was to post this after a night out, it's a reasonably thoughtful hangover imo. My 2 cents.
obyvatel said:
Not to derail the thread from the subject of the poem, but I thought I'd chime in a little on Daumal. I encountered a few of his writings a number of years ago and found them to be quite insightful; specifically A Night of Serious Drinking and Mount Analogue. Both are highly metaphorical tales with obvious reference to "the Work"; getting out of the mindset of the known, daily reality and looking deeper into ones own functioning and programming.
Drinking reads almost like an extended poem than an actual novel, with the act of drinking being used as a metaphor for acquiring knowledge. The characters in the narrative have an insatiable thirst and navigate an environment which serves as a metaphor for the internal environment of the individual, discovering different parts of the self, yet never being able to quench their desperate thirst (note, I'm writing this from memory, and as I said, haven't read the books in a number of years, so I may be remembering it wrong).
Analogue has a more traditional narrative and centers on a group who are preparing for a mountain expedition. It serves as a metaphor for undertaking the Work. The book was never finished before Daumal died, so it ends, rather disappointingly, abruptly mid-narrative.
Both works are very engaging and quite insightful, as I recall. Worth the read.
PhoenixToEmber
Jedi Council Member
obyvatel said:
I can very much see Gurdjieff's teachings in this poem. The desire that is lacked seems to be the desire to awaken, and if someone believes they are already "awake" or enlightened, then this desire isn't there.
Reminds me of this: "In order to awaken, first of all one must realize that one is in a state of sleep. And in order to realize that one is indeed in a state of sleep, one must recognize and fully understand the nature of the forces which operate to keep one in the state of sleep, or hypnosis. It is absurd to think that this can be done by seeking information from the very source which induces the hypnosis."
And this: "You are in prison. If you wish to get out of prison, the first thing you must do is realize that you are in prison. If you think you are free, you can't escape."
Realizing one "is nothing" also goes back to what Gurdjieff says, that we are not what we believe ourselves to be, that there are thousands of lies we tell ourselves about ourselves, and in order to do the Work we must see that first and relinquish those lies. I suppose realizing one is "nothing" is realizing that one is not whole, that he is split into different "I's", and therefore cannot really "give" (or be STO).
Thanks for sharing this, obyvatel. I definitely want to check out more of Rene Daumal's writing now. I'm also a poet and I've been incorporating Work concepts into my writing.
