Author Topic: Collingwood's Idea of History & Speculum Mentis  (Read 51186 times)

Offline Laura

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Re: Collingwood's Idea of History & Speculum Mentis
« Reply #435 on: January 29, 2018, 03:55:28 PM »
I hardly grasp the notion of Mind/ everything else/ no limit ...
I hope these limitations in my understanding will desappear as soon I continue reading more and more.
As I misssed lots of things in IoH and in SM, I'm currently re-reading the notes I made during these readings. There is a little point I don't understand, from § 4. Duty or Concrete Ethics

At the scientific or materialistic point of view, man regards himself as a machine. Now to call oneself a machine is to prove that one is not a machine, for no machine calls itself one. By saying ‘I am a slave to mechanical law man actually lifts himself above such law. But he does so only implicitly ; he does not realize that he is doing it; and because he grasps his freedom only implicitly he does not really enjoy it. He enjoys only a perverted and abstract freedom, the freedom to make the best of a bad job, the freedom of utility. He becomes an economic agent ; he acts selfishly

Why being utile is selfish?

Go back to the initial definition: man is a machine, i.e. mechanical.  His only freedom is that of a machine, the freedom to be part of a crowd of other machines that work, buy, consume.  His only choices may be where to work, what to buy and consume so he should be happy with that. He is only homo economicus.    There are references in Haidt's book "The Righteous Mind" that also relate to this when he talks about the philosophy of Jeremy Bentham.

It is more or less: eat, drink and be satisfied because tomorrow you will die and there is nothing else.
He who learns must suffer
And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget
Falls drop by drop upon the heart,
And in our own despair, against our will,
Comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.
Agamemnon, Aeschylus

Offline nature

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Re: Collingwood's Idea of History & Speculum Mentis
« Reply #436 on: January 29, 2018, 06:02:34 PM »
Okay, I now understand. Thank you very much.
Primum non nocere.

Offline T.C.

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Re: Collingwood's Idea of History & Speculum Mentis
« Reply #437 on: January 30, 2018, 05:29:55 PM »
If anyone hasn't read Collingwood yet, and would like a quick-fire introduction to what Collingwood means by 'historical thinking', check out the first ten minutes of this lecturer's talk on the pre-Socratics.

He's quite manic, and even drops an F-bomb at one point; but to his credit, he nails 'historical thinking'.

After a summation of the previous lecture, he says:

"What I didn't really get around to was this third idea about, like, what it means to engage philosophically with really, really OLD texts.

"You guys know this movie, Good Will Hunting? Okay.

"There's a scene in that, where the late Robin Williams is talking to Matt Damon, and he asks Matt Damon - Will Hunting - he says, "Will, do you have a soul mate?"

"And Will's like, "I got plenty." And he starts rattling off a list of, like, people who kind of, like, 'touch him'. [...] And his list is like, John Locke, Nietzsche, Kant, Pope, O'Connor... dead people, right? A whole bunch of dead people.

"And Robin Williams' character says, like, "Yeah, but they're dead. You're not going to have a real conversation with them."

"That's an interesting little moment right there, because I think that's not entirely true.

"There's a way of reading this stuff, that does make it come alive.

"We're talking about having a conversation - like, a genuine conversation - with somebody, where I'm trying to see where they're coming from; what the 20th century philosopher Hans-Georg Gadamer would call 'A fusion of horizons'. This kind of moment where somebody else is talking about something, and I try to take up their perspective and see it how they're describing it - see what it is that they're talking about and think with them.

"This is, like, a really impressive moment. We might even say something like, "This is one of the most PRECIOUS of human experiences. This is the moment when we really connect with people.

"I don't know if you've ever had, like, these long - perhaps fuelled by some controlled substance - like, long conversations till, like, 3am, with somebody. You stayed up in the dorm. You talked... like, THESE are your friends, right? The people that you have THOSE conversations with. These are the people who are kind of important in your life.

"This is how you REALLY interact. This is the BEST way to interact with people [...] But this is something uniquely human about that 'trying to share perspectives' and see where the other person's coming from.

"And when you actually do engage that - and it's not just a passivity, where you're just like, "I'm gonna see it the way Plato sees it"... In order to understand it, you need to kinda push back a little bit; there needs to be a critique; there needs to be a, like, "He says this, but, like, how could that be?" And then you're... "Oh, alright; I see how." "Oh...", and it's a back and forth. And THIS is how it becomes a conversation. This is how it becomes alive. This is how YOUR philosophical community - your community of interlocutors - becomes bigger.

And he goes on. I'd recommend it, FWIW.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 05:32:13 PM by T.C. »
Work is the sacrifice of the present for the future. ~ Jordan Peterson

The idea of the ultimate benevolence of nature and God is the most potent of man's survival mechanisms. Without it, culture would revert to fear and despair. ~ Camille Paglia

Offline PERLOU

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Re: Collingwood's Idea of History & Speculum Mentis
« Reply #438 on: January 31, 2018, 11:04:54 AM »
Merci TC pour votre message que j'ai pu traduire en Français...
Je l'ai vu sur le mur Facebook de Laura ce matin pais il parlait trop vite pour que je puisse comprendre...
Il n'y avait pas de traduction en Français...

Thank you TC for your message which I was able to translate into French...
I saw it on Laura's Facebook wall this morning as he was talking too fast for me to understand...
There was no French translation...

Offline Menna

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Re: Collingwood's Idea of History & Speculum Mentis
« Reply #439 on: February 01, 2018, 06:31:33 PM »
I have inferred from the reading that Collingwood prefers deductive reasoning. Sorry I can not elaborate on more I am not done with the book will continue to read and will continue to report what I find.
Don't hurt others protect yourself...New advice may lead to new reality

Offline Menna

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Re: Collingwood's Idea of History & Speculum Mentis
« Reply #440 on: February 10, 2018, 12:39:17 AM »
Collingwood put this explicitly when he wrote that 'history is the only kind of knowledge' and proceeded to explain what he meant by adding that 'logic is an attempt to expound the principals of what in the logician's own day passed for valid thought ; ethical theories differ but none of them is therefore erroneous, because any ethical theory is an attempt to state the kind of life regarded as worth aiming at, and the questions arises by whome?

This rings true to me. When someone has an ideal or a want or a logical thought it is based on their life and society today. Not on another life or those who have grown up in different societies. May I say there are different standards or kinds of logic based on different circumstances. History was done and serves as a barometer to measure one aspect of logic (situation/Circumstance/life) to measure the other type you would have to know the brain of the person who the logic came from. Its seems that logic comes from two places society/living and personal experiences interacts with one thing the persons mind and then is used as action or used in another way but that logic is a personal logic its not universal because there are variables embedded in the logic the source of the logical thoughts are variable.

To me this above makes sense  not just from an intellectual standpoint but emotional too.
Don't hurt others protect yourself...New advice may lead to new reality