A conflict of interest.

dave613

The Force is Strong With This One
I've been a reader of the SOTT pages for many years now, and I respect the ideas here more than any others I have found in all my time online -- and I was online before HTML existed. I have a thirst for truth and a critical mind, and I do try to share what I learn.

One of my vices that I've had since childhood is entertainment addiction, and video games specifically. This is not what my story is about, but it is important to understand my situation. My favorite video game is called Counter-Strike. It's a multiplayer online "first person shooter" which basically means we all run around and shoot at each other with guns and grenades and such. In spite of the violent theme, I love the game because it constantly tests your alertness and control. It becomes a dance of moving your character as quickly as possible, dodging bullets and testing the defences of your enemy, all the while making precision shots and communicating positional information with your team for a common purpose. It's a game of self-control and cooperation.

I admit that the objectives and theme of the game are quite questionable. You play either as terrorists or counter-terrorists and this supports stereotypes that play perfectly into the hands of those who wish us to believe in the war on terror, which I don't. The "scenarios" themselves aren't the reason that I play the game. It's just a game and the theme is incidental. It could be clowns throwing mud pies at each other for all I care, so long as the gameplay was as precise.

One of my favorite servers online to play this game is called "Vir's Pub" run by somebody named Virellek. His server is quite popular, well maintained, and expertly modified by him personally from a standard server in very well balanced ways. "Vir" knows how to run a quality Counter-Strike server. His server has a website for forums and news, he has a voice-conferencing server for regulars so we can talk on our own voice channel. I've gotten to know a lot of people and play with them often through this server. I love to come home after a long day and play for an hour. For about a year, perhaps less, I've played on his server with a twinge in my brain telling me, "I know I've heard his name somewhere before".

I'm not just an average gamer of course. The fact that I consider this my most reliable source for real news tells you that much. In the past year, in an effort to do some good, I've been posting links to articles that I find to be the most important and which cut starkly through the lies on other social networking sites like Facebook. Many articles that I link come from Signs of the Times or a handful of other sites.

After posting a few SOTT articles to Facebook, one of my Counter-Strike friends pointed me to Virellek's smear article about the Signs team being a cult. She said "You might find this interesting", perhaps thinking that I would be woken up to the idea that I'm reading the lies of a cult. But she doesn't know Laura's work, and doesn't know the values espoused by the Signs team and QFS. I recognized Virellek's "editorial" for what it was immediately, a smear article with no basis in fact. My initial reaction was to write up a 10 page response before I realized that his article was almost two years old. Then, I remembered the Shoutwire controversy and attacks from two years ago and I put two and two together. Aha! And oh my...

It's hard to express the feeling of knowing that somebody I would often come home and play games with had viciously and unfairly attacked the site that I respect more than any other in the world. In the gaming world, we try to put contentious issues aside most of the time, but for a while it was too much for me.

For a while I left Vir's server, I sent the girl who had sent me the link to Vir's article a heated response about how ridiculous Vir's article was and that I probably wouldn't ever play there again. I felt he was an enemy, somebody not to be trusted, somebody to be avoided because his article was so ill-intentioned. I didn't want to accept using his server to have fun because he was the enemy and I didn't want to accept any gift from an enemy of the truth.

In the last few days I've read in more detail the forum responses of the Shoutwire situation. From what I've read, its been a learning experience about what to expect from a site like Shoutwire that encourages people to write things that will incite people's passions and reward people for following this model.

Virellek being in the position of administrator or editor of Shoutwire had the ability to post a front-page editorial. It really made me angry that he used this power to do such a thing. I think that he abused his power and that he should apologize, but how do you tell that to somebody who doesn't think he's wrong? My own anger has passed now. I've tried to square his attack with what I know of his personality and I'm pretty sure that he actually believes that he is protecting people and just taking some twisted creative license with it because it makes him look cool or just for shock value. Possibly he takes attacks on Israel very personally and seriously thinks that racist tendencies shape some of the ideas that are hypothesized here, and this justifies his own attack.

Though I completely disagree with his conclusions, from everything else that I've known of him, he's generally a good person who actually cares about the users of his server and tries to make the game fun for everybody. When people break the rules and show disrespect he pulls no punches and has banned dedicated regular players who tried to get around technical restrictions on his server, but otherwise he's responsible for his age and generally well-intentioned.

I now have a strange mix of feelings about him, but unless he bans me from his server for having different views, which I really doubt that he would, I'm not going to be avoiding his server any longer. I can no longer respect his political opinions or his writings, but being misled and warning people about a perceived danger is not a sin, even if your reasoning and methods are incorrect. If he has a specific agenda, it exists in parallel with the easy-going and generous personality that I've known from him online. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so. I think his attack was immature and illogical, he used leading photographs to make his point, and he misrepresented the groups ideas, but those are all signs of ignorance, ego, and immaturity, and nothing specifically evil. I don't think that anybody has managed to convince him to truly consider the possibility that he is wrong, his reality filters have stopped that from happening. I know that he is quite pro-Israel and we all know how powerful of a bias that can be. But if I want him to open his mind up to other possibilities, I'm never going to accomplish that by avoiding him and depriving myself of hanging out with all of the friends I've made on his server.

I sort of understood his perspective and know that the team here handled his attack with relative grace. Even though he authored an attack on this site that was "shouted" and supported by countless internet trolls, it is not the author himself who is the enemy but it's the ignorance and attitude which he perpetuated. He was just following his own nature. Based on his own values, he saw a weakness in something that he perceived as threatening to his own world view and he attacked it. I've told him directly that I think he's utterly wrong, but he just repeats, "No, they're crazy". Maybe one day I'll speak to him more at length about it, and he'll actually consider the possibility.

I'll call it as I see it. If political discussion arises, I will happily speak my mind about any situation. There's always the hope that something in his life will make him question what he thinks he knows. Maybe it will be me. Or maybe I'll be able to talk to him at a time when he isn't defending his sacred ideas and mocking and slandering those whose ideas challenge his own.

I don't subscribe to "Us vs. Them" mentality. Sometimes I'm pushed to it when I'm weakened by shocks, like finding out my favorite server's administrator slandered good people that I respect. But I'd rather exhaust all options in trying to come to an understanding with somebody before I give up on them, and as it is, there's still a lot of options.

One thing this has shown me is that somebody can really excel at one thing and be entirely wrong in another. That's only my opinion of course, but unlike Vir, I'm not going to be telling anybody to stay away from his ideas because he's nutty and dangerous. Instead, I'll just express my own.

Cheers,

Dave
 
Phew, Hi Dave... where to start this post of yours is a bit all over the place, but I'll just show ya what I see. First, have you had a chance to peruse the video games thread? http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=129

dave said:
I'm not just an average gamer of course. The fact that I consider this my most reliable source for real news tells you that much. In the past year, in an effort to do some good, I've been posting links to articles that I find to be the most important and which cut starkly through the lies on other social networking sites like Facebook. Many articles that I link come from Signs of the Times or a handful of other sites.
Methinks you have a twinge of self-importance here. What if I were to tell you you are just an 'average gamer?' By that, I mean someone who spends probably 1-2 hours a day dissociated by flashing lights, pretty colors, and a dopamine fix? Many here have had serious video game addictions, I used to play EQ, Daoc, and WoW before I came to the realization that I was getting no where. Back in my teens I'd play some of those games for 12-36 hours straight. I'm still struggling each day with quitting all together, but the less I play the easier it gets.

Another question, where are you posting these links to sott? I mean, I post links on facebook & myspace occasionally, but it's not really a targeted audience. Typically you can be most effective if you place a link where someone's already discussing a topic at hand. Like a link to the Comet series on a comet or space weather blog. Randomly posting links to serious political topics is kinda like 'throwing pearls before swine'. Sometimes people from facebook or myspace do read the links, but I find it much more effective to use something like stumbleupon, newsvine, dig or reddit - where you can select the topic and give it out to a much wider audience whose interested.

dave said:
But if I want him to open his mind up to other possibilities, I'm never going to accomplish that by avoiding him and depriving myself of hanging out with all of the friends I've made on his server.
That's kinda a violation of free will no? We don't endorse that kind of conversion logic here, we're not evangelical sotties for instance. If he's open to other possibilities he can express that intent in searching the net himself, as it stands he and many others are quite convinced sott is an alienworshipping cult, and if that suites them, fine. It's not true, but if it's what they choose to believe then that's their choice. It's not your job, or anyone else's to convince them otherwise.

dave said:
I sort of understood his perspective and know that the team here handled his attack with relative grace. Even though he authored an attack on this site that was "shouted" and supported by countless internet trolls, it is not the author himself who is the enemy but it's the ignorance and attitude which he perpetuated.
The powers that be are the real enemy, psychopaths and their 4D handlers. They do have an army of zombies who regurgitate the nonsense they spew forth, and Vir certainly seems to be one of them. Again, that's his choice, and since we honor free will, we have to understand that it's not our place to change his mind. What we can do, is in a public forum like this one, call out the lies, demonstrate them to be false, and then any other seeker who comes upon the info can make up their own mind.

dave said:
I'll call it as I see it. If political discussion arises, I will happily speak my mind about any situation. There's always the hope that something in his life will make him question what he thinks he knows. Maybe it will be me.
Self-importance will get ya every time, that and anticipation. I think you're also caught up in this illusion that you can educate people while playing your games, sorry bud, it just ain't true. Are you familiar with the works of Gurdjieff? Familiar with Dreaming that you are awakening while in fact you are deep asleep? I ask cuz you've said you've been here for awhile now yet you've posted seven times and seem completely unaware of concepts like self-importance, dreaming/awakening and dissociation.

dave said:
One thing this has shown me is that somebody can really excel at one thing and be entirely wrong in another. That's only my opinion of course, but unlike Vir, I'm not going to be telling anybody to stay away from his ideas because he's nutty and dangerous. Instead, I'll just express my own.
Not a bad start, but what happens when someone's ideas are dangerous? Familiar with the Eric Pepin situation?
 
I think the dreaming and awakening is a very good point Cyre, also relating to Gurdjieff from Ouspensky's In search of the Miraculous I thought this was quite relevant and I just read through this chapter last night:

"How could this have happened?" others asked him. "Why did their attitude towards all of us and towards you change so abruptly and unexpectedly?"
"It is the first case for you," said G., "and therefore it appears strange to you, but later on you will see that it happens very often and you will see that it always takes place in the same way. The principal reason for it is that it is impossible to sit between two stools. And people usually think that they can sit between two stools, that is, that they can acquire the new and preserve the old; they do not think this consciously of course but it comes to the same thing."
It would seem to me that you are stuck between your old (gaming) and new (sott) ways. I can say I've also had a very rough time with this one, and really only recently have I really been able to give up gaming... but I would say it has definitely given me a lot more time to do things that are of importance while I still can do them, fwiw.
 
Cyre2067 said:
Methinks you have a twinge of self-importance here. What if I were to tell you you are just an 'average gamer?' By that, I mean someone who spends probably 1-2 hours a day dissociated by flashing lights, pretty colors, and a dopamine fix? Many here have had serious video game addictions, I used to play EQ, Daoc, and WoW before I came to the realization that I was getting no where. Back in my teens I'd play some of those games for 12-36 hours straight. I'm still struggling each day with quitting all together, but the less I play the easier it gets.
Heh, well I guess I am an average gamer then. When I said otherwise, I meant specifically that most gamers that I meet on counter-strike dont have any interest in politics, society, psychology, the nature of reality, or any other field of knowledge that advances our understanding of the human situation at all. I don't pretend that having interests makes me "better", just that it makes me not an average gamer, in my experience. I've been kicked off servers just for talking about serious issues with people around the world who were interested in talking, but the administrators didn't agree. Online games do connect you with random people around the world, and it can really be nice to hear the ideas of people from widely different cultures, if they can speak your language.

Cyre2067 said:
Another question, where are you posting these links to sott? I mean, I post links on facebook & myspace occasionally, but it's not really a targeted audience. Typically you can be most effective if you place a link where someone's already discussing a topic at hand. Like a link to the Comet series on a comet or space weather blog. Randomly posting links to serious political topics is kinda like 'throwing pearls before swine'. Sometimes people from facebook or myspace do read the links, but I find it much more effective to use something like stumbleupon, newsvine, dig or reddit - where you can select the topic and give it out to a much wider audience whose interested.
When I post links to articles, on facebook at least, I use the "posted items" feature. That makes the items show up on the main newsfeed pages of my friends, if they have that option selected to display, which is on by default. I always keep in mind that other people are not necessarily looking to be educated so I only post the occasional article that I judge to be of interest to the curious and that might show people to see that there is actually a spectrum of opinions out there not explored by their daily newscasts. It's not directed in the most useful way to the biggest target audience who might be looking for it. It's directed towards people that I know so that they might have access to some of the same ideas that I have found useful or meaningful. In a sense, it's a way of sharing my interests with my friends, and bonus if it makes one of them think. I don't take many photographs.

Cyre2067 said:
dave said:
But if I want him to open his mind up to other possibilities, I'm never going to accomplish that by avoiding him and depriving myself of hanging out with all of the friends I've made on his server.
That's kinda a violation of free will no? We don't endorse that kind of conversion logic here, we're not evangelical sotties for instance. If he's open to other possibilities he can express that intent in searching the net himself, as it stands he and many others are quite convinced sott is an alienworshipping cult, and if that suites them, fine. It's not true, but if it's what they choose to believe then that's their choice. It's not your job, or anyone else's to convince them otherwise.
Well, perhaps my choice of words makes it obvious that I personally think that he is wrong to label SOTT a cult (do you disagree?) and that if at all possible I'd like for him to consider my opinion, being somebody who talks with him occasionally, if he's capable of doing so. Isn't the point of this site to spread information that is beneficial? Is it a violation of free will to share your ideas with others or to tell them that your personal view is in opposition to theirs, and explain why? Even a small amount of mutual respect can go a long way towards somebody seeing things differently, and I don't mean that in a sense of actively fighting to change them, but by sharing your perspective and letting the information do its own work. I don't want to force his mind open with a crowbar. I'm not going to bribe him or hold a gun to his head. If his ideas are hardwired I'm not going to get out my wire cutters. The choice I have is whether to shut up and walk away from him or to stay friendly and try to work out our differences of opinion at the appropriate time. If I exhaust all possibilities of that, fine, but I haven't even really talked to him in depth about it yet, or tried to understand his experience which led him to write what he did. That's something that I'd rather hear from him, if possible.

Cyre2067 said:
dave said:
I sort of understood his perspective and know that the team here handled his attack with relative grace. Even though he authored an attack on this site that was "shouted" and supported by countless internet trolls, it is not the author himself who is the enemy but it's the ignorance and attitude which he perpetuated.
The powers that be are the real enemy, psychopaths and their 4D handlers. They do have an army of zombies who regurgitate the nonsense they spew forth, and Vir certainly seems to be one of them. Again, that's his choice, and since we honor free will, we have to understand that it's not our place to change his mind. What we can do, is in a public forum like this one, call out the lies, demonstrate them to be false, and then any other seeker who comes upon the info can make up their own mind.
Again, I don't want to *force* him to change his mind. I know that is useless. My point here is that I originally got emotional and completely left everything to do with Vir behind. But that wasn't right. Instead I will agree to disagree with him for now and hope that we can come to terms with that disagreement in time. If I must walk away from him because he continues to be hostile, I want it to be after I've understood all I can, and made at least some effort to explain my perspective. Do you not reply to me now because you wish to share your perspective on my situation? If you think that you might help me to understand, is this self importance?

Maybe to you it seems cut and dry, and there is no use speaking to him at all, because he has chosen his fate and that is the end of it. I am of a different opinion. He has shown me that he is more than just some vile slanderer, he's also got an intelligent and a compassionate side. If nothing else, I want to investigate our differences of opinion and understand them, and if possible, in doing so, to provide him an opportunity to see clearly his own reasonings, if he chooses to take that opportunity. Giving somebody a choice or an opportunity is different than forcing them to do something. If it's self-important to think I might do that for somebody, then every teacher who wishes to educate people carries the sin of self-importance.

Cyre2067 said:
dave said:
I'll call it as I see it. If political discussion arises, I will happily speak my mind about any situation. There's always the hope that something in his life will make him question what he thinks he knows. Maybe it will be me.
Self-importance will get ya every time, that and anticipation. I think you're also caught up in this illusion that you can educate people while playing your games, sorry bud, it just ain't true. Are you familiar with the works of Gurdjieff? Familiar with Dreaming that you are awakening while in fact you are deep asleep? I ask cuz you've said you've been here for awhile now yet you've posted seven times and seem completely unaware of concepts like self-importance, dreaming/awakening and dissociation.
I haven't read Gurdjieff. I'll admit I did the Coles-Notes version of using the internet to find most of what I know about him. The fact that I'm only an occasional poster will tell you that I'm not as involved or knowledgeable as most of you who have hundreds of posts. I understand the concepts you are talking about from but perhaps not in the exact sense you mean. The labels are enough to indicate to me what you feel that I am lacking understanding in, however.

As far as getting across to Vir, it wouldn't be while playing a video game. I know that. I don't just relate to him in the game. I mentioned before that Virellek have a voice server, and we sometimes use it just to hang out and talk on. The game is just a focus for a loose social scene, which is why walking away from him was about more than walking away from a computer server and I thought twice about my quick decision to do so afterward. I don't pretend that I will have a serious discussion between gunshots and flashbang grenades, while our minds are playing at being action heroes in a little virtual fantasy world. The reason that I don't just walk away is because the community I'm a small part of there is also about the people, not just the game. Me and Virellek aren't exactly best buddies, heh, especially now, but I still want to try to understand first before walking away. Maybe it won't happen. Who knows.

Cyre2067 said:
dave said:
One thing this has shown me is that somebody can really excel at one thing and be entirely wrong in another. That's only my opinion of course, but unlike Vir, I'm not going to be telling anybody to stay away from his ideas because he's nutty and dangerous. Instead, I'll just express my own.
Not a bad start, but what happens when someone's ideas are dangerous? Familiar with the Eric Pepin situation?
I've been reading, yeah. And I know that Vir's article was dangerous and harmful as well.

On an ironic note, Virellek's article makes more definitive slanderous points than the charges against SOTT by Pepin allege that SOTT made. If those here were of the same profit-oriented mindset as Pepin, Vir might have been the one in court. But gladly, not everybody is in it for the money.

Dave
 
rise said:
I think the dreaming and awakening is a very good point Cyre, also relating to Gurdjieff from Ouspensky's In search of the Miraculous I thought this was quite relevant and I just read through this chapter last night:

"How could this have happened?" others asked him. "Why did their attitude towards all of us and towards you change so abruptly and unexpectedly?"
"It is the first case for you," said G., "and therefore it appears strange to you, but later on you will see that it happens very often and you will see that it always takes place in the same way. The principal reason for it is that it is impossible to sit between two stools. And people usually think that they can sit between two stools, that is, that they can acquire the new and preserve the old; they do not think this consciously of course but it comes to the same thing."
It would seem to me that you are stuck between your old (gaming) and new (sott) ways. I can say I've also had a very rough time with this one, and really only recently have I really been able to give up gaming... but I would say it has definitely given me a lot more time to do things that are of importance while I still can do them, fwiw.
It's a constant struggle. It's funny because even though I love meat, I went vegan cold turkey (no pun intended) two and a half years ago and have never really had much trouble with it, even though the smell of meat still entices me. But something as encompassing as a game that takes your mind completely away from the difficulties of life has always been much harder for me to stay away from.

It's probably something unbalanced in my perspective, and probably has a lot to do with self-importance. The more I learn, and the more capable I become, the more I feel a duty to act, the heavier is the weight of knowing, and the greater the relief of letting it go and thinking of nothing but the game. A difficult cycle. Probably if I could find a way to grow without that growing feeling of responsibility, or find some way to help me carry that burden, I wouldn't feel the need for such relief.

Dave
 
dave613 said:
It's a constant struggle.
Dave said:
The battle between 'yes' and 'no'. It's funny because even though I love meat, I went vegan cold turkey (no pun intended) two and a half years ago and have never really had much trouble with it, even though the smell of meat still entices me. But something as encompassing as a game that takes your mind completely away from the difficulties of life has always been much harder for me to stay away from.
That's probably because the game is much, much more pleasant than meat - it has less to do with your ability to 'control yourself' than it does with what it is you are trying to 'control'.

Dave said:
It's probably something unbalanced in my perspective, and probably has a lot to do with self-importance.
Self-importance is always involved in everything - but it's actually a very, very common problem. Sleep is more attractive to the false personality than awakening. A simple (yet never simple) matter of A and B influences. The part of you who 'likes' A influences is stronger than the part of you who 'likes' B influences, and 'likes' awakening. It happens every single second of every single day all over the planet. The Matrix has you.

Dave said:
The more I learn, and the more capable I become, the more I feel a duty to act,
And, likely, here is the rub - to act at this point in your awakening involves Working on oneself and developing Will - (not explaining things to others) - this is the hardest part of all and while gaming, it is impossible.

Dave said:
the heavier is the weight of knowing, and the greater the relief of letting it go and thinking of nothing but the game.
Well, there are a few issues with this - first of all, you have just begun to 'know' - if you read the SotT page then you assuredly know more than the people you game with - however, from what we've come to understand, the real knowledge you need to affect a substantial change is knowledge of the self and gaming ain't gonna get you there.

And, if you're on a server run by a guy who spent such time and effort attacking this site, then the chances are high that you are rationalizing your NEED to continue to game there. The motivation is that you don't want to leave your gaming community, so you are fitting facts around that, rationalizing so your conscience and that part of you that is Real quiets down enough for you to concentrate on the game.

That's likely why you posted about this at all - it was that part of you that is Real, waving a little flag, as it were.

You may actually have been offered a perfect opportunity to develop Will- one step at a time. From what you've said, I don't think you'll stop gaming any time soon (there was a time I spent ALL my free time gaming - I know how powerful that dissociation, addiction and 'place' is - heck, I still avoid reading about new video cards, it's that bad...) - however - if you can start to develop Will by leaving this server while continuing to game, that would be interesting. From there, who knows?


Dave said:
A difficult cycle.
Not especially - there are MUCH more difficult cycles, though this is a fairly strong one - and a very, very common one. I often wonder if the gaming industry wasn't invented with intellectual, creative types in mind - a perfect vector if ever there was one.


Dave said:
Probably if I could find a way to grow without that growing feeling of responsibility, or find some way to help me carry that burden, I wouldn't feel the need for such relief.
No offense, but this is - well - horse hockey. It's not 'responsibility' that is creating this need to escape - you are addicted to gaming because everything is 'better' in the game - it is an escape, it is sleep, it is dissociation - when you are in the game, everything else disappears - the Matrix has you.

It is quite possible that what you are identifying here as 'responsibility' is, in actuality, the discomfort that accompanies awakening; the 'real' part of you nudging you again and again - you identify it as responsibility because it is easier to think it's about waking up others than waking up yourself.

Waking up is not easy - in the beginning, it is not fun - however the alternative is a life that is not living - a life of being asleep, being food, and entropy. Make no mistake - this 'waking up' thing is very real - and it's not a game. For what it's worth.
 
Constructive criticism is a rare gift. Even rarer if you can appreciate it. Thanks for pointing out that little flag, anart.
 
Hi Dave. Wanted to respond to your responses, see below!

dave said:
Online games do connect you with random people around the world, and it can really be nice to hear the ideas of people from widely different cultures, if they can speak your language.
True - but what are the points of online games? To dissociate online, with other people! They are for entertainment, not education, so if one is truly interested in pursuing objective reality you'll find them in places like this forum, or other venue's NOT in an online game. It's no wonder people have booted you for talking politics on a game server... I mean, it's a not politics server is it?

dave said:
Well, perhaps my choice of words makes it obvious that I personally think that he is wrong to label SOTT a cult (do you disagree?) and that if at all possible I'd like for him to consider my opinion, being somebody who talks with him occasionally, if he's capable of doing so.
Of course I don't disagree. But given all that went down with shoutwire (are you aware of the totality of the interaction? Read everything that was posted on the topic?) do you honestly think there's a snowballs chance in hell of vir changing his mind? I'm assuming you read the entirety of his article...

dave said:
Isn't the point of this site to spread information that is beneficial? Is it a violation of free will to share your ideas with others or to tell them that your personal view is in opposition to theirs, and explain why? Even a small amount of mutual respect can go a long way towards somebody seeing things differently, and I don't mean that in a sense of actively fighting to change them, but by sharing your perspective and letting the information do its own work. I don't want to force his mind open with a crowbar. I'm not going to bribe him or hold a gun to his head. If his ideas are hardwired I'm not going to get out my wire cutters. The choice I have is whether to shut up and walk away from him or to stay friendly and try to work out our differences of opinion at the appropriate time. If I exhaust all possibilities of that, fine, but I haven't even really talked to him in depth about it yet, or tried to understand his experience which led him to write what he did. That's something that I'd rather hear from him, if possible.
Couple of things, yes that's the point, but only to give the info freely to those who are asking. You're boy Vir isn't asking, in point of fact, if there was a time when he was he was given all that he needed to see the truth and brushed it off as you would an annoying insect. Kinda why I asked if you were aware of all the documentation.

Thus in the above I see two of your I's talking at once. We have the one that respects free will, who just wants to give him some info he might not have, and the other I which is indignant that he could say such things about a source you trust. How dare he! You say you don't want to force his mind to change, but hasn't he already had that opportunity? Do you think that your relationship with him could somehow make your input a little more palpable? Given all that went down, the back and forth etc, I don't see how you could think that he hasn't had all the info... or many chances to change his mind.

dave said:
My point here is that I originally got emotional and completely left everything to do with Vir behind. But that wasn't right. Instead I will agree to disagree with him for now and hope that we can come to terms with that disagreement in time. If I must walk away from him because he continues to be hostile, I want it to be after I've understood all I can, and made at least some effort to explain my perspective. Do you not reply to me now because you wish to share your perspective on my situation? If you think that you might help me to understand, is this self importance?
Maybe your emotional response was spot on. All of a sudden you discovered some vile about someone you 'knew' and liked and were repelled by it. I can't tell you the number of people whom I used to associate with, and when I discovered something truly horrible about them I was shocked, disgusted and never associated with them again based on the emotional response I felt.

I reply to you know because you seem to be genuinely asking for honest feedback. Vir never did such a thing. And even when his lies were pointed out, he ignored the evidence. He repeatedly demonstrated he wanted nothing other then continue with his line of thought. That is not 'asking' in the esoteric sense as I understand.

dave said:
Maybe to you it seems cut and dry, and there is no use speaking to him at all, because he has chosen his fate and that is the end of it. I am of a different opinion. He has shown me that he is more than just some vile slanderer, he's also got an intelligent and a compassionate side.
Only reason it seems cut & dry to me is because I'm aware of the extent of the interaction. I weighed him and found him wanting. Perhaps you're perspective is different, but you have to put it into context. Your view of him is through counter-strike and the server he runs. I'm sure he appears very intelligent and compassionate when he's trying to maintain that illusion, the fact is we saw the mask slip off and there lied not an ounce of compassion or a twinkling of real intellect. You weigh this illusion as more real then the truth we saw in the shoutwire debacle - that's your choice, but I don't think it's very objective given the fact that it's built around a video game, a literal virtual reality.

dave said:
If nothing else, I want to investigate our differences of opinion and understand them, and if possible, in doing so, to provide him an opportunity to see clearly his own reasonings, if he chooses to take that opportunity. Giving somebody a choice or an opportunity is different than forcing them to do something. If it's self-important to think I might do that for somebody, then every teacher who wishes to educate people carries the sin of self-importance.
Again, he's had that opportunity, thoroughly. In fact, if you go to him with the mindset you have now I wouldn't be the least surprised to find him labeling you a cult-member as well, that remains to be seen however. I agree with the statement in bold, but given all I know about Vir he doesn't seem to want that opportunity. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you'll be successful and he'll come to be a regular forumite here... somehow though I just don't buy it.

Well considering on Earth, the way it is now, we all are STS (service to self) and thus can't help suffering from self-importance I'd think that yes, every teacher does teach partially out of a selfish reason. Some more then others, but even Laura is still a 3D STS being. She's done more work then anyone to learn how to destroy her self-importance and many follow in her footsteps. It doesn't happen overnight however, and it would be naive of you to think you're doing it out of some purely altruistic motive.

dave said:
The reason that I don't just walk away is because the community I'm a small part of there is also about the people, not just the game. Me and Virellek aren't exactly best buddies, heh, especially now, but I still want to try to understand first before walking away. Maybe it won't happen. Who knows.
I'd suggest picking up some books on Narcissism if you want to understand him better(The Narcissitic Family by the Pressmans, Trapped in the Mirror by Elan Goulomb, and the Drama of the Gifted Child are all great reads). Then a good read of Political Ponerology if you want an idea as to why that 'social scene' is worth walking away from. Personally, with such little precious time left, I find myself wondering why you're wasting it trying to influence friends when you could be making new ones who require no influencing.

Anart said:
And, if you're on a server run by a guy who spent such time and effort attacking this site, then the chances are high that you are rationalizing your NEED to continue to game there. The motivation is that you don't want to leave your gaming community, so you are fitting facts around that, rationalizing so your conscience and that part of you that is Real quiets down enough for you to concentrate on the game.
I think that about sums up this whole thread way better then I could have. I hope you understand what anart is saying here because it's really the core, the answer I think the real you was looking for in posting the above.

dave said:
Constructive criticism is a rare gift. Even rarer if you can appreciate it. Thanks for pointing out that little flag, anart.
The question is what will Dave do with the information he's gotten here?
 
Anart said:
The motivation is that you don't want to leave your gaming community, so you are fitting facts around that, rationalizing so your conscience and that part of you that is Real quiets down enough for you to concentrate on the game.
Anart echoes my own reading of this situation.

Dave, you seem very emotionally invested in the idea of changing the views of your fellow gamers, getting them involved in discussing "serious" subjects. On the surface, that does not seem very rational, given that it's a gaming site. I play online Scrabble a few times a week, but do not have a need to discuss "deep" matters with my fellow players -- because it's a game, a distraction. However, I can see that if you were spending many hours of your day at an activity that is no more than a distraction, you would be motivated to try and make it more "meaningful" in order to rationalize the activity to yourself. I can also see how, if you are currently in the process of "waking up", that it would be difficult to acknowledge to yourself how much time you have spent, and continue to spend, "sleeping" at this activity. It's like you're saying, "Hey, it's not like I'm just wasting my life compulsively playing a game, there's more to it than that". But, in the end, there really ISN'T more to it than that.

I'm not judging you. If you are at a stage where you are still not able to give up spending that much of your life numbing yourself, then that's where you're at. But if you're serious about "waking up", it's important to at least acknowledge the reality of the situation. If I spend more than a couple of hours playing Scrabble, I know I'm involved in some kind of avoidance behaviour. If I have too much to drink one night, I know I'm numbing myself for some reason. Even if I can't stop myself from falling into such "sleep" behaviour from time to time, I don't try to convince myself that it's something other than what it is. I don't beat myself up for it, but I don't go into denial about it, either. In other words, you have to clearly SEE the behaviour before you can change it....
 
Hi, dave. I'm Spi. I was browsing through the web for some current events or other information happening and I somehow found this topic instead. Counter-Strike? Ah! I played that this summer, I stopped a few weeks ago though.. You never said which version it was, I played 1.6. I love how strategic it is... I use the scout, it's hard to use but it's such a cool sniper rifle.

Okay, enough of that. I see the meaning of this topic, when I play online multiplayer games with a bunch of unknown people. I can't really tell who they really are because most of the people there tend to play so they can ego-flex (Such as getting the high score, even I aim for that when playing). I really have no problem in what the other players believe in because it's the thoughts in my mind I had this through, "Even though they may reject or not reject what I read, does it relate to the game?"

I even know some people that plays video games for soothing their ego and not really caring about anything else such as philosophy. I wouldn't dare to give any source of information to them anyhow, because most of them are uneducated and living in this world's condition.... Most likely they would reject, people tend to be predictable that way. Though, when I play Counter-Strike.. Sometimes there are moments that are not "entertainment-related". I know a few skilled players that are pretty intelligent for measly entertainment. Though do I present the truth to them? Nope. Even though they seem ready because of their intelligence, I wouldn't. It's just odd the fact that I'm playing a shooting game then I'm out there spreading philosophy. We're friends because we find our interest in Counter-Strike to be common not because of other personal knowledge or attributes.

So does Counter-Strike does more pleasure or pain? When I reflected upon my addiction of Counter-Strike, I get loads of painful thoughts that seem to also bring pleasure... Unfortunately, pleasure was pretty much pain to me. Sorry if that's a bit vague.

One of the things that make general people so predictable is the way how they attach themselves by addiction then try to fight it off with various methods. How my addiction of Counter-Strike ended was quite simple, I just let it flow smoothly. Then when I feel like it, I look for other things. I set a goal in another video game, it shockingly broke the addiction in a snap. But that's just my experience.

Dave, this may seem mudane but how about I email you a list of video games that you could try?
I'm a fellow gamer, my most favorite games are the ones I found naturally by myself. So I'm expecting that they might not be the best games you'll ever play. I may not be addicted to them, but they are a part of me. No, not attachment either! They're just one of my favorites. I couldn't say Counter-Strike is one of my favorite games because all it had were addictive online multiplayer. I'm looking for games with non-addicting value instead a reality to search in and discover.

This message is probably repetitive in meaning to the posts before me, but it's in my own words and I have experiences similar to dave's. I don't think advices is just gonna cut the ice but only give dave's ability to comprehend to other ideas. If dave wants to solve his own problems he has to take it in action in his own and chosen way.
 
Spi said:
Hi, dave. I'm Spi. I was browsing through the web for some current events or other information happening and I somehow found this topic instead. Counter-Strike? Ah! I played that this summer, I stopped a few weeks ago though.. You never said which version it was, I played 1.6. I love how strategic it is... I use the scout, it's hard to use but it's such a cool sniper rifle.
And you say ''I see the meaning of this topic'' ?

I don't think this is the right place for you. What is your goal in life? And who tells that you are ''educated''? Why are you here? And why do you want to recommend any games to another?
 
Yikes... That reply makes me feel uncomfortable (Because I sort of expected these kind of analysis from other users), but I will answer those questions sincerely. I don't want to mean any harm.

The first paragraph was sort of like, an introduction. I'm saying that I have played Counter-Strike, but when moving onto the second paragraph I'm explaining what I have experienced with Counter-Strike myself. It's an addicting game that made me feel like I was wasting my time. My goal in life, that's rather a personal question as I have a lot of goals in life. No one tells me that I am educated but myself, because I have read many sources with information that relates to anything esoteric.

I'm here to look around and see if I like to read anything. I wanted to recommend games to him because there are games that gets rid of addiction. Meh, just a suggestion.

If this is not the right place for me, then I'll just leave.
 
Hi Spi,

Oxajil's post was a bit over the top, from my perspective. He/she seems to have over-reacted a bit about your recommending other games. It will likely be worth your time to look around a bit more, and since you've been 'here' for seven months, I'm sure you understand that what Oxajil wrote was not the usual 'fare' - and it's really not up to him/her to decide such a thing - that is up to you.
 
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