a different take on truth vs lie :(

[MaskedAvatar]

You (joejoeba) may have resigned, but I am really interested in this:

"The 'verses' part in the title was about the differentiantion between two states of ment-"

Was that an amazing Freudian slip, or is it a statement that you meant?

I agree there is little good in lying. People who regularly lie with a purpose (eg the cited writer) damage themselves more than they can possibly know.

 

[anart]

In light of the above, I looked again at the uses of truth and lies by the writer cited in the original post.

I maintain my truth, but not for the purposes of "pride" in "principles" that are exclusively "mine".

It's interesting to see that that writer has "pride" as the one corollary of someone "liking" their truth that is worth mentioning. That seems a good indicator of something.

But not everything is about "psychopathy" and whatever is in the other end of that continuum.

You maintain 'your truth' - and that is that...

I liked your lie.

smile

Have you anything to contribute here at all, or is that so far beyond you that 'silly games' are your sole purpose. Sheeesh - move along already, this is getting rather boring.

 

[Hildegarda]

I liked your lie.

smile

The trouble with this attitude is that one can never be sure whether a person is making a joke or being serious. In this case, one can spend a long time bantering back and forth, with no gain.

I admit I have no idea what you are really trying to say in this and subsequent posts. And I personally have neither energy nore time for banter.

If this is your idea of a joke, than it is in poor taste, as would be interpreted by many on the forum, I think. If you are being serious, than this attitude is out of place on this forum, again, IMO.

And lactly -- the original writer probably tells about as much truth as lies, but as she sees no difference between the two, it doesn't matter, and such 'truth' loses its nature and power.

 

[noise]

Wow freetrinity,

I just checked the link to 'the legal alien' and read the article there "A Criminal History Of Mankind," and the ape info really in some context goes well with your original post here <<a different take on truth vs lie :(

Quoting from the article: "These stories and others, I think, go to show that altruism and selfishness are two separate evolutionary paths."

There is alot of depth that I was.. well I'm from the old school of one or the other (edit: truth or lie).. or maybe that was my mom and I just got brought up into it in terms of how my mind works. I never really saw the depth/tactic of the condoning liar so clearly. Or the egotism of the dominant ape/man mind-set, who's roll I've played myself as well as lying (even when at times I don't know it).

It is also possible I am lying to some degree now. I'm of the theory that a person could also gain, if you can call it that, slowly and unconciously the ponerological effects as demonstrated in the various ways the liar works. I hope your following here what I'm referring to. These unconscious traits begin to manifest themselves as part of the character even though they are unhealthy (pyshotic) traits. Then the liar becomes unconscious of the programming and just runs it, like the rest of their (possibly?) whimsical lives.

Seems you summed up already what I'm trying to say: "It is a view that is very foreign to me, and diametrally oppose what this site and this Work are based on."

Very interesting, and as you said "foreign.." to me as well. I think there was a kind of jolt from it on my awareness. It seemed to raise the question, "could a 'normal' persons mind work in such a way?" Then in the concept of how psychopathy can be viral like. I'm still a bit estranged (if I'm using the word right) to some of the facts and concepts of psychology in general. I'm having some issue with trying to word this. ..frustration. How are psychopathic traits put upon/transferred to normal people?

I deleted a bit of writing just trying to get the above question out. There must be millions of influences.. hmm well the wheels are certainly squeeking in my brain. Very interesting topic.

I hope all this is coherent, I kind of skipped around as I was taking in info and proof reading and trying to put to words some concepts that I'm just now grasping at. Outside of the few simpler, honest and transparent things I got from my mom there are still things about reality that are coming into focus for me. :)

 

[MaskedAvatar]

-- the original writer probably tells about as much truth as lies, but as she sees no difference between the two, it doesn't matter, and such 'truth' loses its nature and power.

I think the original writer knowingly tells lies and knowingly tells truths, with intent in each case, then plays with the different responses of her audience to lies or truth, to serve her self-gratifying ends.

That is by many definitions psychopathic.

What I said originally was drawn solely from what you said and what your writer said. I am sorry you don't see the point of any of what I said. I wouldn't generalise that to every person that reads this topic, but I am sorry you don't see it, no prob.

 

[Pierre]

I am sorry you don't see the point of any of what I said. I wouldn't generalise that to every person that reads this topic, but I am sorry you don't see it, no prob.

Instead of pointing forumites limited understanding capacities, why don't you explain your reasoning more clearly ?

 

[joejoeba]

Ok then, I'm back.

Upon further thought on the subject, I felt I needed to raise a sub topic relating to Jokes and 'White' lies;

I did a search on the forums and couldn't find much specific to the reality of those decisions to tell someone a 'white' lie. It is a lie normally 'given' a loved one and is generally accepted as a kind of nice thing to do . A decision many people make with the person's best interest at heart. This I think is a dangerous place to be. I was told by my mother that white lies were ok in certain circumstances. I discovered, as my mind matured, grown up and moved on, that unfortunately (with all due respect to my lovely mum) she told me quite a few and as I have seen through them have been more annoyed than greatfull. I felt it not a decision someone else should make to protect me from the truth! Sounds ludicrous when it is put like that.
White lies are for me in a middle place when considering to whom they serve, largely due to a number of variables I guess, for example; A mother to child, rosyfying the death of a hamster. This white lie is relatively tame and more about maintaining peace and not hurting the child. However, what if she re-wording her explanation, was utterly frank.

It makes me wonder how much of language in the home has more truth in subtext and rosification than blunt fact. This I think makes it pretty much pure STO+S! taught repeatedly in most homes.
Just to make it clear I no longer refer solely to my own family. It is well observed by me and peers all through life.
This justified lying.
Worse I fear is the paternal government image that subtly infilrates.Tired forgiving trust allowing these small localised white lies to enter the unsuspecting mind, continuously spreading part truths untill the impure fabric of society is riddles with a disease.

Jokes are also part of that. It is possible to laugh at observation, or the real, the surreal, the ridiculous and the beautiful.

But who do the jokes of some one who is masked feed? As i see, chosen in this case is a blank cloth with nothing behind it just an impresson. Can I ask, was that a joke? Like a white Zorro?

Don't answer that.

STS Jokes and little lies are all it takes to spread the disease of the 'white' mask. In the realm of good? Pah!

 

[Hildegarda]

What I said originally was drawn solely from what you said and what your writer said. I am sorry you don't see the point of any of what I said. I wouldn't generalise that to every person that reads this topic, but I am sorry you don't see it, no prob.

And this is exactly the point.

I can read pretty well, you know, and understand stuff. And yet, you started out in this thread with statements that was purposely convoluted as to what your intent was. Moreover, it seemingly had no bearing on anything anyone said before ('I liked your lie' -- I said no lies, neither did others).

Thus a person you are speaking to has no point of reference in understanding what you really mean, whether you are joking or being serious, whether you are making a logical error or following logic. It is all shifting sand.

Explaining your reasoning and your more clearly and with stated seriousness would definitely be a good idea -- that it, if you are interested in continuing a conversation.

 

[joejoeba]

I feel a link here to a scioagapeomnis topic on http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=2377

About choice of avatar.

 

[Hildegarda]

Very interesting, and as you said "foreign.." to me as well. I think there was a kind of jolt from it on my awareness. It seemed to raise the question, "could a 'normal' persons mind work in such a way?" Then in the concept of how psychopathy can be viral like. I'm still a bit estranged (if I'm using the word right) to some of the facts and concepts of psychology in general. I'm having some issue with trying to word this. ..frustration. How are psychopathic traits put upon/transferred to normal people?

From what I saw in the discussion surrounding the original quoted statement, a lot of people did not see it for what it was. They said, "oh, that's right, I don't say truth all the time either, not everybody wants to hear it", or "I just tell truth no matter what others think of it". They equated the mindset that the quote represents, with their personal experiences of sometimes telling white lies or NOT telling the truth -- which is not the same thing.

It also seemed that some poeple have not given this question thought before. Such people are IMO apt to accept what's being said at a face value and as a part of their own mindset, even though they may not have much awareness they have of their own psychological reality. And once its there, it takes root. So I think psychopathic thoughts are transfered via lack of knowledge of self and others, and lack of perspicacity.

 

[noise]

Guess I'll make some staements and see if I am understanding you correctly.

Joe Normal goes out into the great big world unconcerned about truth, awareness or conscious. He's an average guy with an average everything else - mind, intellect, job.. Joe N. Loves humanity and is a very caring person. Joe N. has run ins with various groups of people, 4-6 percent of whom are true psychopaths and the others are average people some with traces of psychopathy like other normies (normal people).

Joe N. even supports the president, like his dad does. His dad says, "you always support your commander in chief no matter what." So when Joe see's protestors Joe often offers them the finger unknowing why these people are protesting in the first place. Joe is aware the president lied on several occasions but it all boils down to what dad always says - "you always support your commander in chief no matter what."

So in a way Joe has given up some of his own logical pursuits of truth by accepting falsities. Joe does not give thought nor attempts to discern or understand the people who protest and considers them enemies of the state. What Joe N. doesn't recognize is that these people are trying to stand up for Joe's Civil Rights, love for humanity (in general) and the other things Joe Normal holds in high regard.

By this analogy Joe doesn't even consider questioning his dad's (lack of) logic and therefor cannot approach nor get past the reality of his presidents decietfulness. This keeps Joe's mind fixxed unable to see how he truly feels about his president, other than the program he's been given from dad. This keeps Joe unable to be open minded in any debate about his president, the Iraq war, Palestine and Israel, Halliburton.. It's not that Joe is evil he just can't get untransfixxed from the programs the external world has helped him create.

I wonder if it is not simply the pain it would cause to face reality. Took a big struggle for me and I imagine there wil be more.

Heh, I think I am understanding you though my metaphore may be pretty lame. :)