a heck ova lot of anger

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

Q: If you deliberately set to work to deceive another person is not that deliberate evil?
A: Most probably you could not help yourself; there was such a pressure of circumstances or something, that you could not do otherwise.

That doesn't apply to psychopaths though. While psychopaths aren't conscious in the higher sense, we do know they do not need to rationalize their actions as necessary or as some sort of "self defense". They are perfectly happy lying, manipulating, and controlling just because that gets them what they want, and that's all they can do. Although since that is all they can do, then we can't say it was a choice, and if they have no choice, then it's not conscious.

It seems that in order for something to be conscious, there must be a choice not to do it. And if someone doesn't feel empathy, they have no choice. But if someone does feel empathy, which means an internal barometer is telling them some things are "wrong", does that allow for the possibility of conscious evil? Well one thing they can do is to repress the empathy so that they no longer feel it, but then they basically become no different than those without empathy. But without repressing it, can conscious evil be done then? Well another thing they can do is to lie to themselves and pretend they're doing good. But then that's not conscious evil since they're under the impression that they're doing good.

What if they don't repress empathy or deceive themselves about the nature of their actions? In order to do "evil" in this case it seems that they'd either have to find it somehow necessary as in "pressure of circumstances", or simply needed in order to accomplish a greater STO purpose. In other words, I"m not sure it's possible to do evil if you have a developed/working empathy and you are objective about what you are and what you do. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems either the objectivity or the empathy have to "go" before you choose STS.

So perhaps that applies to 4th density too. It is a level that in theory represents a conscious choice to lead an STS existence. Being a conscious choice it requires that someone making it has a choice, so that would exclude psychopaths (it seems). But if the above hypothesis is correct about either taking out empathy or taking out objectivity, then 4th density STS, would probably be doing one or the other or both in order to exist. Actually, if you take out empathy, I don't think it's possible to retain objectivity (and psychopaths are evidence of this as they have no conception of facts). Psychopaths can be very intelligent and clever, but simultaneously have major blind spots and subjectivity and wishful thinking and assumptions, and all of that is probably a result of lacking empathy. And it makes sense since without empathy all your thinking centers around yourself and your "self-importance" (and lack of importance of others and everything else), which is already a lie, and since your thinking is rooted in what is fundamentally an illusion, your thinking will be seriously distorted by it too. Just some thoughts.

 

[Cyre2067]

Another thing that helps me when the anger flares, is to consider (according to the system we are studying)that conscious evil is impossible, evil is mechanical in nature not conscious.

While I think that does help in an intellectual way, the feeling doesn't really abate. Understanding what they are informs us of the proper response to the phenomenon in question. Psychopaths, pathocrats and their minions are dangerous, they hurt people, kill people, torture people and perform unconscionable acts upon men women and children. As a member of that group of people I think anger is not only justified, but the 'right' response. Considering we can use it as a fuel for our own evolution, and thus to improve ourselves & our world it seems a logical conclusion - does it not? In fact, I'd wager it's a crucial lesson of 3D STS realities.

As to whether or not evil can be conscious, I think it requires further investigation - are 4D STS beings conscious? or are they mechanical? Considering it requires 95% STS polarization to 'graduate' to STS I would wager that there must be consciousness involved. Can psychopaths graduate to 4D? I don't think so, but I'm probably wrong. Only a souled individual who behaved like a psychopath, consciously suppressing his empathy and conscience & suffering the consequences could make that transition. Then again, I'm likely wiseacring... who knows the real 'rules' of 4D... one would assume you'd have to be 4D to learn them.

 

[PepperFritz]

Can psychopaths graduate to 4D? I don't think so, but I'm probably wrong. Only a souled individual who behaved like a psychopath, consciously suppressing his empathy and conscience & suffering the consequences could make that transition.

Both "Ra" and the C's indicate that individuals have, and can, graduate to 4th Density via the STS path. As I recall, the percentage of STS orientation has to be quite high, something like 95%, and a very high degree of discipline is involved; therefore, very few graduate to 4th Density via that path, the vast majority do so via the STO path.

I can locate the relevant sections of "Ra' and the C Transcripts if you like....

 

[mamadrama]

While I think that does help in an intellectual way, the feeling doesn't really abate.

`Yes, do I get that. If I may quote myself from The Spoon's thread on Next Nearest Alternative:

As much as I want to do the Work, sometimes, the esoteric nataure of it is just too abstract to affect the gritty reality of 3D life in the trenches, osis.

Sometimes esoterica just can't compete with the raw need to release some energy. It's good you have a regular fitness routine but when that doesn't work for me, I go outside to an old, dead tree stump on my property and I hammer nails into it until I feel better. I can't tell you how many nails are pounded into that stump but I'm going to have to move to a new one soon or maybe get a punching bag :)

As a member of that group of people I think anger is not only justified, but the 'right' response. Considering we can use it as a fuel for our own evolution, and thus to improve ourselves & our world it seems a logical conclusion - does it not?

I'm not sure about that. Remember in the beginning of Political Ponerology when Lobaczewski relates the story of a book he read as a youth about a naturalist wandering through the Amazon-basin wilderness?

At some moment a small animal fell from a tree onto the nape of his neck, clawing his skin painfully and sucking his blood. The biologist cautiously removed it -- without anger, since that was its form of feeding -- and proceeded to study it carefully. This story stubbornly stuck in my mind during those very difficult times when a vampire fell onto our necks, sucking the blood of an unhappy nation.
Maintaining the attitude of a naturalist, while attempting to track the nature of macrosocial phenomenon in spite of all adversity, insures a certain intellectual distance and better psychological hygiene in the face of horrors that might otherwise be difficult to contemplate. Such an attitude also slightly increases the feeling of safety and furnishes an insight that this very method may help find a certain creative solution. This requires strict control of the natural, moralizing reflexes of revulsion, and othe painful emotions that the phenomenon provokes in any normal person when it deprives him of his joy of life and personal safety, ruining his own future and that of his nation. Scientific curiosity therefore becomes a loyal ally during such times.

One of the attorneys who represented me during one part of my court battle with my ex used to say to me,
"Laurel, why are you getting so mad? He's dog sh_t. You stepped in dog sh_t. Now, do you get mad at the dog sh_t when you step in it? No, you wipe it off and go on." Of course this doesn't capture the essence exactly but you get the idea?
Ouspensky encourages us to stop expressing negative emotions because it is a waste of energy. But is righteous anger a negative emotion, it would depend I guess.

Energy can be distracted from the right places and put in the wrong places by negative emotion. As long as one cannot control negative emotions one cannot control anything else as regards to instinctive centre. There is only one way of saving and many ways of wasting it.

In fact, I'd wager it's a crucial lesson of 3D STS realities.
As to whether or not evil can be conscious, I think it requires further investigation - are 4D STS beings conscious? or are they mechanical? Considering it requires 95% STS polarization to 'graduate' to STS I would wager that there must be consciousness involved. Can psychopaths graduate to 4D? I don't think so, but I'm probably wrong. Only a souled individual who behaved like a psychopath, consciously suppressing his empathy and conscience & suffering the consequences could make that transition. Then again, I'm likely wiseacring... who knows the real 'rules' of 4D... one would assume you'd have to be 4D to learn them.

Yes, exactly! And since we are 3D, it seems we should concern ourselves with the laws of a 3D existence if we are concerned with the Work and perhaps enjoy the speculative nature of what may or may not constitute a 4D existence when less is at stake.