A pointless post

[Tigersoap]

Hi Foo,

Don't forget that you're still attached a lot to your idea of yourself and that to make it go away it won't be easy and painless.
4th way hurts.
It takes courage and a slight change of perception to see your situation as an opportunity to observe yourself (like you did) over and over again and stop getting caught in the loop of self-pity, depression and so on.
Ok it won't happen that easily, but you have the chance and the knowledge available to see the possibility of getting out of this.
You're the only one able to do it, we can just help you from afar.

If your energy is not drained anymore by self-pity, you should rejoice instead of complaining about it ;)

I don't know, but maybe all is not so dark as you may see it right now because you would not have bothered to post and ask for help if you were at the bottom osit.

 

[foofighter]

Any efforts you make to gain knowledge about yourself and to know and spread the truth out there in the world are obviously for the benefit of others and the creative side of the universe in general. It is not about you and what you can get.

Good point! I have just taken one small step towards this, on topics that we discussed not so long ago. Check your inbox.

And thanks for the push and perspective on things. You've done it before and it always works the same way on me. Predictable, but in a good way I guess

 

[Joe]

And thanks for the push and perspective on things. You've done it before and it always works the same way on me. Predictable, but in a good way I guess

Not a lot of "head rush" in this 4th way work, is there Foofighter...

Joe

 

[Russ]

Any efforts you make to gain knowledge about yourself and to know and spread the truth out there in the world are obviously for the benefit of others and the creative side of the universe in general. It is not about you and what you can get.

I don't understand why it can't be both for you and others?

 

[Mr. Premise]

Not to speak for Joe (I look forward to his response on this) but I would say that if you are concerned with you and what you can get, that that would skew any knowledge you have towards subjectivity and STS and would detract from any benefit others could get from it. Not to say you wouldn't benefit from gaining knowledge of yourselves and by spreading the truth, but it would change things if your own benefit was your motivation. OSIT

Any efforts you make to gain knowledge about yourself and to know and spread the truth out there in the world are obviously for the benefit of others and the creative side of the universe in general. It is not about you and what you can get.

I don't understand why it can't be both for you and others?

 

[Joe]

Not to speak for Joe but I would say that if you are concerned with you and what you can get, that that would skew any knowledge you have towards subjectivity and STS and would detract from any benefit others could get from it. Not to say you wouldn't benefit from gaining knowledge of yourselves and by spreading the truth, but it would change things if your own benefit was your motivation. OSIT

Pretty much.

It is for you and others.

The initial motivation cannot be anything but self serving, but soon we realise that what we seek is much more than us or ours. It exists outside of ourselves as a universal ideal that we serve and attempt to safeguard in the world.

We start with a desire to uncover the truth. We think this is for our own gratification, but once we uncover some truth it is natural, at least for some, to give it life in this world and the most natural way to do that is to share it with others.

The problem as Donald J mentioned, is that if you see this truth as yours rather than a universal ideal that exists everywhere you will skew the truth by attempting to make it serve you in one way or another. We are limited human beings, and therefore if it is to serve us the truth must be limited to the confines of our own ability to perceived "what is".

We need to keep in mind always that we are just vehicles for the truth that has a very definite life and force of its own. If we serve it faithfully and openly, that is, by doing the difficult work to rid ourselves of the many illusions we have come to accept as real, we make space for an ever deeper understanding of reality as it is. If we do not, our "truth" simply becomes a shallow reflection of our own limited perceptive abilities.

Do this for long enough and in a committed way, and it cannot but change you, but only indirectly as a result of your efforts to serve it. There is no control to be had over the process, we simply put your faith in it. We serve self by serving others. Or as others have said:

"service to others flows outward and touches all including point of origin, service to self flows inward and touches only origin point."

Joe

 

[Ottershrew]

We need to keep in mind always that we are just vehicles for the truth that has a very definite life and force of its own. If we serve it faithfully and openly, that is, by doing the difficult work to rid ourselves of the many illusions we have come to accept as real, we make space for an ever deeper understanding of reality as it is. If we do not, our "truth" simply becomes a shallow reflection of our own limited perceptive abilities.

Do this for long enough and in a committed way, and it cannot but change you, but only indirectly as a result of your efforts to serve it. There is no control to be had over the process, we simply put your faith in it. We serve self by serving others. Or as others have said:

"service to others flows outward and touches all including point of origin, service to self flows inward and touches only origin point."

Thanks Joe! A very helpful summary of what we're here for.

The narcissist within (i.e. the Predator) continually causes us to look for our own glorification, our own self-advantage - or at the very least, our own self-calming.

That Predator within us fears reality. It fears the marvellous profusion and uncontrollability of Life. It anticipates its being swept away like a mist in the rising sun of dawn. Learning not to anticipate ANYTHING, but simply trying to serve the truth and learn simple karmic understandings - that's where the fun is!

But, of course, this has been said over and over again. It's just that the Predator reacts with lightning speed to reaffirm its presence. It's tough, because of this liar within us - but the way of the warrior IS a path of joy, and starts with an inner decision somewhere within us to do without "creating our own reality", and to simply try to be a candle alight in the darkness.

Anyway - like I said, I think this has been said thousands of times before. And I doubt that I've really done justice to how excellent the Work really is; and that's probably because I don't fully understand!

I just felt the need to write this as part of my own struggle with the Predator. :)

 

[mada85]

The narcissist within (i.e. the Predator) continually causes us to look for our own glorification, our own self-advantage - or at the very least, our own self-calming.

The interesting thing is that the predator manifests itself in a completely individual way. For example, the reader of the above could form the impression of 'glorification' as a state of feeling really great about oneself, Look at me, I'm wonderful! But the predator can also manifest as quite the opposite (I'm speaking from experience here) as, Look at me I'm so hard done by, no-one cares about me. An inverted glorification of the self, so to speak.

The real inner war seems to lie in seeing the predator's manouvres before one falls into the trap. Sounds so simple, and yet is hard work.

 

[Joe]

The interesting thing is that the predator manifests itself in a completely individual way. For example, the reader of the above could form the impression of 'glorification' as a state of feeling really great about oneself, Look at me, I'm wonderful! But the predator can also manifest as quite the opposite (I'm speaking from experience here) as, Look at me I'm so hard done by, no-one cares about me. An inverted glorification of the self, so to speak.

Indeed. Self-pity and self-importance are two sides of the same coin. Often, people who use pity ploys will switch to self-importance when they deem that their "sacrifices" are not being valued enough. The "predator" is a word used to describe the sum total of our unconscious programs that we have developed to feed that abused and neglected part of ourselves. Unless these programs are brought out into the light of consciousness and "rewired" the abused becomes the abuser. And so it continues.

Joe

 

[Russ]

Thanks for the clarification and extra details, Joe. However, I'm still not sure.

I understand self-importance and self pity, the bigger picture of sharing truth and working to find truth with others, the work, etc. I do understand that quite well, osit. But I can be quite pedantic and I am thinking along the lines of, can STO be achieved by - not selfishness, actually I'm not sure what word to use, but maybe "self gratification", or even, a preference towards STO, but not because you care about other people but because it feels bad not to help other people in the best way you can.

Maybe I am talking about semantics, I don't know. I just find that possibility interesting, I mean - I am trying to get deep into the psychological reasons why people go with STO or STS, and how there could be more than one "method" if you see what I mean. I am talking about very small differences, or maybe even big differences, but which would not be apparent to an outside observer.

For example if you enjoy helping people, and you have a pride in yourself to do the best you can do (not a stubborn pride which can't accept reality, but a pride in being able to accept reality, and the way in which you do it), then it seems self gratifying even though it helps other people. ie- someone who may not be aware how much they are helping people, are not actually concious or aware of STO - but are "naturally" on the path to STO and yet, people might think they are selfless, but they wouldn't do it if it didnt make them feel good to help others, or conversely would make them feel bad if they didn't.

This kind of person may not suffer from self importance, or self pity, any more than anyone else.

My point is there is a discrepancy here, a fine line between doing things for others because you enjoy it and see it as the best way to serve yourself, or just serving others and not caring about yourself at all (but of course "take care" of yourself for the benefit of others). Actually its very hard to explain, primarily because I am just venturing into this precise and delicate area of research, and don't know too much about the finer details.

 

[KC Kelly]

Here lately, when I inevitably come to those more trying moments in life which, strangely enough seem to be associated with moments when I am being mechanical and not observing myself, it helps to reread certain key passages in the Work that can give force. I've encountered so many in the teachings on this aspect, and here is one from Maurice Nicoll's Psychological Commentaries on the Teachings of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky that helps to give me force:

Let us recall once more the teaching of the Work about Magnetic Centre. It says that Magnetic Centre brings us into the Work but cannot keep us there without our own efforts. We have to work on ourselves and in contact with a system that tells us how we have to work. We have to will this Work. To attempt to do this Work--such as the practice of non-identifying--without willing the Work cannot give any result.

Will starts from affection. Will, if you come to think of it, is love. One emotion can overcome another if strong enough. The center of gravity of Will lies in the Emotional Centre. It is worth reflecting on this oneself. But although a man may have right Magnetic Centre, which should lie in the intellectual part of Emotional Centre, it is only introductory. If he is led to a teaching connected with the Conscious Circle of Humanity by means of it, his task is only begun. He has to turn his sense of mystery, his seeking, his cravings, his lack, into something real--into practical and practised work, and the more he values emotionally, the more he is given help. If he has the strength to catch the rope overhead then not only is he working but the Work works on him. It begins to teach him, in periods of silence, in those gaps in one's mechanical life when usually everything is a blank or boredom.

Above all, it enters when one has separated--that is, not identified--with one of the hundred and one daily things that keep us asleep, and seem so great through indentifying, which is an enormous magnifying lens. People like to make a problem of everything, to be worried, and, like flies, get stuck on every little fly-paper-event. One may have no idea how it is possible to avoid these fly-papers--that is, unless one takes the Work simply and applies it simply, almost at every moment. What an up-rolling of care can then take place, and how these things adjust themselves and fall into their right place.

It can get old to keep telling oneself to hang in there, but....

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

can STO be achieved by - not selfishness, actually I'm not sure what word to use, but maybe "self gratification", or even, a preference towards STO, but not because you care about other people but because it feels bad not to help other people in the best way you can.

Are you asking of STO can be achieved when serving others feels good but not serving others feels bad, and you use that as a driver for what you do? If I understood that correctly, it sounds to me like "service to self through others", which is what STO is. But there are different "levels" on which something can feel good too. If serving others makes you feel like you're important or special or just a "good person", and that's why you do it, then I'd say that's not STO, as you're now subjectively judging. So I think the answer to your question is probably yes but it would depend on what that "good feeling" (and the converse "bad feeling") really is. I think it would have to be a feeling that is directly associated to the act and concept of service without the interference of subjective judging entering the picture. And probably the focus would have to be the service, not the feeling. So not "I want to have this feeling, and serving others creates that feeling, so I will serve others". The way I see "service to self through others" is not that self is the main priority and "others" are just a tool to serve self. Instead, service to others IS the main priority in and of itself, and self is being served as a "byproduct" of serving others, not as the priority in and of itself, if that makes sense. I think what the C's said about anticipation is relevant here - that having any kind of anticipation or expectation when you serve others makes it STS, but STO serves without reservation, anticipation, or expectation - but with faith.

I am trying to get deep into the psychological reasons why people go with STO or STS, and how there could be more than one "method" if you see what I mean.

I am talking about very small differences, or maybe even big differences, but which would not be apparent to an outside observer.

Or maybe they would be to an objective observer that can SEE. The way I understand it, there is only one real "way" to be STO, as opposed to STS that is outwardly disguised as STO. And while we cannot read someone's mind to know what is the motivation and real intentions of someone, if we know that only the real STO can create a certain "quality" of mind and action, a quality that is missing from all the fake versions, we can tell if the person is genuine by careful observation of what they say and do. This requires that we have enough understanding of STO and STS, which also necessitates that we are sufficiently polarized towards one or the other, because as Joe says, it is the act of being persistent and consistent in acting towards your chosen polarity that changes you in fundamental ways. This way your theoretical understanding of STO becomes much less theoretical and much more "hard-wired" into your being, and with that, your ability to SEE all the subtle and not-so-subtle manifestations of STO and STS in others, osit. My hypothesis is that if we do this enough, we will finally be able to truly understand the concept of FRV as we might actually develop an inner ability to "feel" it, without even having to observe someone's words and actions.

Like for example any fake STO will inevitably have subjectivity, wishful thinking, contradictions between words and actions, and other external signs of STS whether they intend it or not. So it's just a matter of our Knowledge at that point. And while the finer details of STO have been discussed in theoretical ways before here, there is no better tool than to just BE it through practice - and a network to help you refine your ability to serve as you go along - but this means active DOing. And perhaps through our efforts to literally serve we learn the nature of service, not just by trying to figure it out on a purely intellectual level. Personally, I have spent way too much time contemplating exactly what is STO, but doing it that way never really helped. I know what you're asking, and I was asking the same exact thing a million times before, and still I cannot say I have any definitive answer, at least not when approaching the problem purely from an intellectual sense. I honestly don't think our "intellectual mind" can really get it, not without all other centers also understanding what it is on their respective levels, which requires Work. So it's not a lack of your intellectual ability that makes you confused about the matter, I honestly think that this "evasive" quality of STO is because STO is an "achievement" of all centers working in unison, and as such, cannot be fully understood by any one center individually, kinda like it takes all the blind men who are feeling the elephant to really know what the elephant is.

Maybe a better way is simply to try to identify what inside us is *not* STO, which for me at least is a more practical task to tackle, and along the way we might learn what STO is by identifying all the things it is not and removing them from our being? Kinda like if we really want to know what color the world is, we must work on removing the rose-colored glasses etc.

 

[Niall]

Awesome SAO. Thanx :)

 

[Joe]

My point is there is a discrepancy here, a fine line between doing things for others because you enjoy it and see it as the best way to serve yourself, or just serving others and not caring about yourself at all (but of course "take care" of yourself for the benefit of others). Actually its very hard to explain, primarily because I am just venturing into this precise and delicate area of research, and don't know too much about the finer details.

There is a difference as you say, but I don't think there are many who can serve others with no thought for the self right off the bat. As I mentioned before, the initial motivation has to be selfish since we are by nature or genetics or whatever, self-serving beings. I think the point is that we begin this quest for knowledge thinking it is for ourselves and that it will improve our lives, but truth asks a price of those who would have it.

Generally speaking the price is the suffering involved in giving up our beloved illusions and struggling against that part of our natures that loves those illusions and seeks to keep them. These illusions include our subjective view of life and ourselves in it. We believe we are many "good things" that we are not. Having our true self-serving natures revealed to us is painful, and more painful still is the requirement that once we become aware of our self-serving nature in all its ignominy, we must put that knowledge into practice and change our actions - which invariably involves cutting off the dynamics by which we feed the illusions about ourselves, usually at the expense of others. Following such a course of life naturally leads us to serve others, albeit indirectly. So in this way we end up serving others by following a path of truth seeking that began as self serving.

Joe