A question about Self-Observation

[edgitarra]

Hello dear forum!
Since I started the self-observation exercise I realized how mechanical I am, and as time passed by the process itself developed, it brought more realization to accept that in the beginning I wasn't really self-observing, but more likely judging myself and trying to change my manifestations, habits. I got deeper in reading about self-observation, and started to exercise and use my attention on the body: sense it, feel, try to be as present as possible, observing the unnecessary thoughts; now, when I am trying to observe myself(doesn't last long at all), I see that there is a separation in the body: there is one, hidden(some sort of being present but impartial, one who observes, who is watching the "movie"), and there is the "I" which is mechanical and which is part of the "movie". Somehow it is like being present, and in the same time, not being present(especially when I close my eyes, to avoid other visual distractions). It is somehow a different taste from what I was observing in the past.

But I am still trying to understand better what it is not to interfere with the voices of the mind. For example when I am walking and place attention on the bodily-sensations, the thought stops. Sometimes the mind triggers some thoughts but it seems that I don't manage all the time to not interfere with them.

Can anybody give me some advices about how not to interfere with the flow of unnecessary thoughts, in order to be able to observe them?

Thank you very much !

 

[SeekinTruth]

Well, from my experience, it seems to take some practice and then you get better at just observing -- without judgement of what you observe. It takes a long time to be able to do it consistently without the judgement interfering. But when you can do it after a while, it seems to become easier the more you do it.

That's just my experience with Self-Observation, that the biggest thing that messes up the process and getting good practice is that as soon as you observe something, you start judging it as being "stupid," or "lazy" or "annoying" or any other judgement. Then if you can't stop the judgements, you will very quickly find that you are trying to change things haphazardly which could be worse than doing nothing about them.

Something that might help all this is to observe in a more laid back way, without caring so much what you see, in other words without being invested in any way about the observations, just going about collecting data. That comes with some practice and turned out to be the biggest help in overcoming the stumbling blocks to Self-Observation for me. Hope that helps with your question.

 

[edgitarra]

Thanks for your response. I can say that I stopped judging almost everything because I saw that there is no point in doing it. I didn't have time(21 years old now) to judge so much, and mostly if I was judging, I was judging myself. The thing is that these unnecesary thoughts I was talking about simply contain stored information, like recent information - quotes from books I read, sometimes there is music playing in my head(I have this musical memory that can play a song which I didn't even knew that I listened to it). Things like this. There are also dialogues with other persons that I know(like, they are asking me about how I could help them understand things about The Work etc., or telling them how to do certain exercises).

 

[Ollie]

Hello dear forum!
Since I started the self-observation exercise I realized how mechanical I am, and as time passed by the process itself developed, it brought more realization to accept that in the beginning I wasn't really self-observing, but more likely judging myself and trying to change my manifestations, habits. I got deeper in reading about self-observation, and started to exercise and use my attention on the body: sense it, feel, try to be as present as possible, observing the unnecessary thoughts; now, when I am trying to observe myself(doesn't last long at all), I see that there is a separation in the body: there is one, hidden(some sort of being present but impartial, one who observes, who is watching the "movie"), and there is the "I" which is mechanical and which is part of the "movie". Somehow it is like being present, and in the same time, not being present(especially when I close my eyes, to avoid other visual distractions). It is somehow a different taste from what I was observing in the past.

But I am still trying to understand better what it is not to interfere with the voices of the mind. For example when I am walking and place attention on the bodily-sensations, the thought stops. Sometimes the mind triggers some thoughts but it seems that I don't manage all the time to not interfere with them.

Can anybody give me some advices about how not to interfere with the flow of unnecessary thoughts, in order to be able to observe them?

Thank you very much !

It may help if you realign, as it were, say, on the hour (and if you remember, in between) - inwardly observing for knowing which is dominant: your mechanicalness or self-remembering/observing - for realigning your powers of self-observation/remembering. Persistently and consistently self-observing - keeping coming back to yourself - repetition of the repeated, for developing your skills in self-observing.

Secondly, using active attention, observing the 'movie'/voices of the mind with total disinterest, free of engaging in 'bait' in any way - silently. Just let the 'movie'/voices of the mind drift in and out of consciousness - free of engaging with. Practicing 'Watchfulness', observing and mentally recording how you are taken from being present. And, denying the expression in the 'movie'/voices of the mind with silence at every opportunity - free of engaging.

Instead of judging and trying to change, just experience yourself as a machine, seeing all the lies, tricks, prejudices, etc of the 'movies'/voices of the mind in all areas of your life - doing it as if from another person's perspective (one who observes, who is watching the 'movie'), ie, outside of yourself. At the same time understanding that your 'reputation' and your 'perspective' mean nothing at all. What is important is to see, to see yourself just as you are.

At the end of the day (or even on the hour), you may like to review your performance:

What unnecessary thinking (unrelated to what's in front of you) have you experienced?
What inappropriate emotion (more than appropriate to the situation, the present moment, or unrelated to the present moment) have you experienced?
What unnecessary movements did you observe?
What conditioning, old habits have you seen or fallen back into?
What habitual tensions have you observed today? What do these tensions relate to, in terms of the Predator's Mind (voices of the mind) protecting itself, and from what?

This may help, or not.

 

[edgitarra]

Thanks man! Very good advices:)

 

[furryfrog]

Hi edgitarra

Since I started the self-observation exercise I realized how mechanical I am, and as time passed by the process itself developed, it brought more realization to accept that in the beginning I wasn't really self-observing, but more likely judging myself and trying to change my manifestations, habits.

Are you Man #3?
It seems you may be jumping ahead of yourself and inadvertently practising the negative method, or method of exclusion. Perhaps reviewing page 173-175 of Gnosis will help, to better understand the dangers involved if one is not impartial in their observations.

"We can see that such a method asks neither for an ideal nor for faith. It
nevertheless has its danger: it requires total impartiality in the observations
and conclusions to be drawn from it. If such impartiality is not observed
from the start, the man risks falling deeper into Illusion. His situation will
then be worse than it was before."

"A rapid analysis of these two methods of work reveals the role of
impartiality — that form of objectivity of which man is capable — and
later of sincerity. Not to make conscious use of these two qualities, especi-
ally towards ourselves, is the source of many errors in our lives which we
will not know how to mend later on."

Reading about lying and particularly lying to oneself may be of benefit, Gnosis pg 164-169.

I got deeper in reading about self-observation, and started to exercise and use my attention on the body: sense it, feel, try to be as present as possible, observing the unnecessary thoughts

That's good,

I am trying to observe myself(doesn't last long at all), I see that there is a separation in the body: there is one, hidden(some sort of being present but impartial, one who observes, who is watching the "movie"),

I would say that your true "I" sits in this direction, by your words of description, impartial, observes, watching.

and there is the "I" which is mechanical and which is part of the "movie". Somehow it is like being present, and in the same time, not being present(especially when I close my eyes, to avoid other visual distractions). It is somehow a different taste from what I was observing in the past.

This "I" sounds like a false "I". Your word of description, mechanical come to mind, "and a different taste from what I was observing in the past". Our consciousness of the real "I" is the only permanent point within us. Keep in mind our false "I"s can be very tricky.

"As for the consciousness of the real 'I', we can now form a certain idea of
this, even in its passive form. We know it as the only permanent point which
exists within us, hidden behind our ever changing personality; always
dragged along by the torrent of our thoughts, our feelings, our passions
or sensations, which pass through it and involve the whole man in un-
premeditated acts which he himself would later condemn. This permanent
point is the impartial Referee within us who judges our own acts; the Referee
whose soft voice is often obscured by inward uproar or by events.
Although weak and passive, this evanescent form of the consciousness
of the real 'I' is always just and objective."

But I am still trying to understand better what it is not to interfere with the voices of the mind. For example when I am walking and place attention on the bodily-sensations, the thought stops. Sometimes the mind triggers some thoughts but it seems that I don't manage all the time to not interfere with them.

I would say that when you are placing your attention on your body-sensations, your are practicing a form of the doctrine of the present, and become more present in "yourself". (Thi‎s is good). The thoughts stop because you have stopped identifying with them, IE, a lot of those "thoughts" may be a form of inner considering or false "I"'s

Can anybody give me some advices about how not to interfere with the flow of unnecessary thoughts, in order to be able to observe them?

Well, I would also recommend the posture of the sage (meditation). Read chapter XX, pg 203-213 of Gnosis.
Sub section (9) pg 209 is about interior constatations.
On pg 206 that concerns respiration, I do the EE rhythm of breathing.
Chapter 3 of Gnosis page 19-22 introduces the posture of the sage.

The thing is that these unnecessary thoughts I was talking about simply contain stored information, like recent information - quotes from books I read, sometimes there is music playing in my head(I have this musical memory that can play a song which I didn't even knew that I listened to it). Things like this. There are also dialogues with other persons that I know(like, they are asking me about how I could help them understand things about The Work etc., or telling them how to do certain exercises).

Yes, similar to me when my intellectual center "runs away". I like the analogy about the gramophone discs in Gnosis pg 34-35.

It seems to me you are making good progress, just be careful, and like SeekinTruth said,

it seems to take some practice and then you get better at just observing

 

[edgitarra]

Hi edgitarra

Since I started the self-observation exercise I realized how mechanical I am, and as time passed by the process itself developed, it brought more realization to accept that in the beginning I wasn't really self-observing, but more likely judging myself and trying to change my manifestations, habits.

I realized that i wasn't observing the self because I wasn't aware of the real meaning of not identifying. That was the tricky part that i really learned from. There just just another false "I" who tried to take the place of the previous "one".


Edit=Quote

 

[Keit]

I realized that i wasn't observing the self because I wasn't aware of the real meaning of not identifying. That was the tricky part that i really learned from. There just just another false "I" who tried to take the place of the previous "one".

It sometimes hard to make the disinterested/unidentified/non judging separation between the observer and the observed, so what helped me, is to put myself in the mode where I imagine that I am sort of watching myself from outside as a curious experimenter/ observer :) In such more there is no need to analyze every word or behavior, but enough to register the prevalent tendencies, to take mental pictures. And as Gurdjieff said, it may be awhile before you'll be able to do anything with this info, but it's ok, because just like with any (scientific) experiment, first you need to spend some time just on collecting and analyzing data.

 

[mada85]

I've found that writing in my journal is very helpful towards self-observation, in the following way. I read about Gurdjieff's ideas, Madame de Salzmann's First Initiation, cognitive psychology and I apply this knowledge to myself, writing about things I have noticed in myself, sometimes as a recapitulation, sometimes as a stream of consciousness, sometimes in the way of 'faking it until I make it'.

The act of writing these things focuses my mind on them and helps me to 'digest' them. This then leads, step by small step, to being better able to observe these things in myself during my daily activities.

A most important part of self-observation is knowing what to look for, hence the importance of studying Psychology and Cognitive Science.

 

[Anthony]

Hello dear forum!
Since I started the self-observation exercise I realized how mechanical I am, and as time passed by the process itself developed, it brought more realization to accept that in the beginning I wasn't really self-observing, but more likely judging myself and trying to change my manifestations, habits. I got deeper in reading about self-observation, and started to exercise and use my attention on the body: sense it, feel, try to be as present as possible, observing the unnecessary thoughts; now, when I am trying to observe myself(doesn't last long at all), I see that there is a separation in the body: there is one, hidden(some sort of being present but impartial, one who observes, who is watching the "movie"), and there is the "I" which is mechanical and which is part of the "movie". Somehow it is like being present, and in the same time, not being present(especially when I close my eyes, to avoid other visual distractions). It is somehow a different taste from what I was observing in the past.

But I am still trying to understand better what it is not to interfere with the voices of the mind. For example when I am walking and place attention on the bodily-sensations, the thought stops. Sometimes the mind triggers some thoughts but it seems that I don't manage all the time to not interfere with them.

Can anybody give me some advices about how not to interfere with the flow of unnecessary thoughts, in order to be able to observe them?

Thank you very much !

That's just one more 'I' making demands. It probably just wants to feel that it's progressing in the work
or doing it right etc.

The passive man—once he has come into conscious existence—can do
nothing at first. He can only notice what the active man "does" and
for a long time he must submit to it, however much he, the passive man,
would like things to be different. Becoming passive to oneself is the
first stage of the Work. It requires great inner activity of attention.
The question of control of personality arises later (not here). Before any
question of control arises, a man must study what it means to become
passive to himself, what it means not to identify with himself at every
moment—otherwise he will all the time be identified with himself.

Observing
'I' must be given as far as possible the feeling of 'I' at the moment and
the observed side given the feeling of "not 'I'

 

[obyvatel]

Here are some comments of Gurdjieff about self-observation taken from his talks compiled in "Views from the Real World".

[quote author=VFTRW]
Man, such as we know him, is a machine. This idea of the mechanicalness of man must be very clearly understood and well-represented to oneself in order to see all its significance and all the consequences and results arising from it.

First of all everyone should understand his own mechanicalness. This understanding can come only as the result of a rightly formulated self-observation. As to self-observation—it is not so simple a thing as it may seem at first sight. Therefore the teaching puts as the foundation stone the study of the principles of right self-observation. But before passing to the study of these principles a man must make the decision that he will be absolutely sincere with himself, will not close his eyes to anything, will not turn aside from any results, wherever they may lead him, will not fear any deductions, will not limit himself to any previously erected walls. For a man unaccustomed to thinking in this direction, very much courage is required to accept sincerely the results and conclusions arrived at. They upset man's whole line of thinking and deprive him of his most pleasant and dearest illusions. He sees, first of all, his total impotence and helplessness in the face of literally everything that surrounds him. Everything possesses him, everything rules him. He does not possess, does not rule anything. Things attract or repel him. All his life is nothing but a blind following of those attractions and repulsions. Further, if he is not afraid of the conclusions, he sees how what he calls his character, tastes and habits are formed: in a word, how his personality and individuality are built up. But man's self- observation, however seriously and sincerely it may be carried out, by itself cannot draw for him an absolutely true picture of his internal mechanism.
[/quote]

Others often see us better than we do - thus the need for networking. Also cognitive psychology - especially the adaptive unconscious , the concept of two levels of thinking ( Thinking: Fast and Slow ) and the study of various cognitive biases are very useful to get a real feel for our mechanicalness. Without the aid of these tools available to us today, it is easy to fall into the trap of mentalizing self-observation - as has perhaps been the case with several 4th Way groups.

Continued

[quote author=VFTRW]
The starting points of this self-observation are:
1) that we are not one.
2) that we have no control over ourselves. We do not control our own mechanism.
3) we do not remember ourselves. If I say 'I am reading a book' and do not know that 'I' am reading, that is one thing, but when I am conscious that 'I' am reading, that is self- remembering.

Question: Doesn't cynicism result?

Answer: Quite true. If you go no further than to see that you and all men are machines, you will simply become cynical. But if you carry your work on, you will cease to be cynical.

Question: Why?

Answer: Because you will have to make a choice, to decide —to seek either to become completely mechanical or completely conscious.
[/quote]

Cognitive psychology shows us in no uncertain terms that we are not one and we have little control over our thinking and actions. (Wilson's book on adaptive unconscious is titled "Stranger to Ourselves: Discovering the Adaptive Unconscious"). 4th Way continues on the path by stating that it is possible to become conscious.

[quote author=VFTRW]
Question: What is the method of the Institute?

Answer: The method is a subjective one, that is, it depends on the individual peculiarities of each person. There is only one general rule which can be applied to everyone— observation. This is indispensable for all. However, this observation is not for change but for seeing oneself. Everyone has his own peculiarities, his own habits which a man usually does not see. One must see those peculiarities. In this way one may "discover many Americas." Every small fact has its own basic cause. When you have collected material about yourselves it will be possible to speak; at present, conversation is only theoretical.

If we put weight on one side, we must balance it in some way. By trying to observe ourselves, we get practice in concentration, which will be useful even in ordinary life.
...................................................


Question: How can we gain attention?

Answer: There is no attention in people. You must aim to acquire this. Self-observation is only possible after acquiring attention. Start on small things.

Question: What small things can we start on? What should we do?

Answer: Your nervous and restless movements make every- one know, consciously or unconsciously, that you have no authority and are a booby. With these restless movements you cannot be anything. The first thing for you to do is to stop these movements. Make this your aim, your God. Even get your family to help you. Only after this, you can perhaps gain attention. This is an example of doing.

Another example—an aspiring pianist can never learn except little by little. If you wish to play melodies without first practicing, you can never play real melodies. The melodies you will play will be cacophonous and will make people suffer and hate you. It is the same with psychological ideas: to gain anything, long practice is necessary.

Try to accomplish very small things first. If at first you aim at big things you will never be anything. And your manifestations will act like cacophonous melodies and cause people to hate you.

Question: What must I do?

Answer: There are two kinds of doing—automatic doing, and doing according to aim. Take a small thing which you now are not able to do, and make this your aim, your God. Let nothing interfere. Only aim at this. Then, if you succeed in doing this, I will be able to give you a greater task. Now you have an appetite to do things too big for you. This is an abnormal appetite. You can never do these things, and this appetite keeps you from doing the small things you might do. Destroy this appetite, forget big things. Make the breaking of a small habit your aim.

[/quote]

 

[Anthony]

Concerning cognitive psychology, I've found this site recently, it contains lot's of useful
information that is taken from various books and can be useful in our work, especially for
all those that can't afford certain books.

http://whywereason.com/all-posts-2/

same goes for You Are Not So Smart website.

http://youarenotsosmart.com/all-posts/

 

[furryfrog]

Hi Anthony,

I am not familiar with Maurice Nicoll. Can you tell me what text's these quotes are from? There is not much information in the book section on Maurice Nicoll, and a Google search revealed he has written several books. He does have a small thread in this section that you started, and his name does pop up elsewhere. I am curious.

Thanks.

The passive man—once he has come into conscious existence—can do
nothing at first. He can only notice what the active man "does" and
for a long time he must submit to it, however much he, the passive man,
would like things to be different. Becoming passive to oneself is the
first stage of the Work. It requires great inner activity of attention.
The question of control of personality arises later (not here). Before any
question of control arises, a man must study what it means to become
passive to himself, what it means not to identify with himself at every
moment—otherwise he will all the time be identified with himself.

Observing
'I' must be given as far as possible the feeling of 'I' at the moment and
the observed side given the feeling of "not 'I'

 

[Anthony]

Yeah, both of

Hi Anthony,

I am not familiar with Maurice Nicoll. Can you tell me what text's these quotes are from? There is not much information in the book section on Maurice Nicoll, and a Google search revealed he has written several books. He does have a small thread in this section that you started, and his name does pop up elsewhere. I am curious.

Thanks.

The passive man—once he has come into conscious existence—can do
nothing at first. He can only notice what the active man "does" and
for a long time he must submit to it, however much he, the passive man,
would like things to be different. Becoming passive to oneself is the
first stage of the Work. It requires great inner activity of attention.
The question of control of personality arises later (not here). Before any
question of control arises, a man must study what it means to become
passive to himself, what it means not to identify with himself at every
moment—otherwise he will all the time be identified with himself.

Observing
'I' must be given as far as possible the feeling of 'I' at the moment and
the observed side given the feeling of "not 'I'

Both of those quotes are from the first book of his psychological commentaries.

You can just google Maurice Nicoll Psychological Commentaries Volume 1