Am I stupid?

[Anamarija]

In my experience, whenever I have looked at someone and branded him/her with some label, sooner or later I have had evidence to suggest otherwise regarding them or have had a situation which showed me how I may behave in certain circumstances would warrant the same label for myself.

I wonder do we label others and put them in the box because we don't want to spend our energy on someone that we don't think that has value? This probably sound nasty, but what happens if we value everything like excellent but really can't found enough energy and time to commit to this?

 

[Anamarija]

Are you a person that is inclined to developing the intellectual center? Or an emotional one? Or you put focus on the physical center?

Probably judging other in the same way I judge my self (and reverse). Before I have probably judge people in speaking of depth of emotions. Now, because I want to improve my self in intellectual way judging others from same perspective. Before yesterday I didn't know that I judge others (and self) so much, and for sure, I didn't know the differences between my judging in the past and now.

Think of the unthinkable: you may see a post that shows a higher degree of intelligence, but there might be even higher, something you don't even imagine yet. So you still limit yourself by thinking that if you achieve that level of intelligence - you will ever stop.

Great! This thought help me to better understand how program of stupidity is just wasting my time.

Yes, acceptance. Being aware and accept this is a program. You are constantly learning something, and you will be better. You are good at something other people are not. Of course that does not mean you just have to stop. You will always acquire knowledge, and you will always exercise your mind if that is what you want.

Thank you, I'll try to remember this or just read again this thread when I get caught in this emotion.

YES! :D But then don't start looking at yourself as being intelligent - it might feed the predator. Just study and explore ! Focusing on something keeps you away from something else:)

I had many chances in life before to be a part of some form of government community or work on college. But also I had a feeling if I success in any way in life that I will become very narcistic and arrogant person.

YES, thinking requires energy so pretty much anything you think will drain you. But it is worse if you fall in a vicious loop, when you stop doing anything new and fall in the same thinking as you say. It is more thinking in terms of waste, and what is valuable. Time is passing, think about how you can appreciate the time and the health you've got!

I don't know what you do in your life but if you have a chance to be a teacher you should be ;). You have (at least in my opinion) so tender and simply ability to explain things. I feel, when I read you post, like a little girl in school and I'm listening my dearest teacher.
I'm happy because there's no chance to ever stop learning, I hope that I have past that point in life when I cannot live without a knowledge and wisdom.

People here are very helpful and nice, no matter their degree of intelligence. I think that is more important IMO.

Well said!

 

[luke wilson]

In my experience, whenever I have looked at someone and branded him/her with some label, sooner or later I have had evidence to suggest otherwise regarding them or have had a situation which showed me how I may behave in certain circumstances would warrant the same label for myself.

I wonder do we label others and put them in the box because we don't want to spend our energy on someone that we don't think that has value? This probably sound nasty, but what happens if we value everything like excellent but really can't found enough energy and time to commit to this?

IMO, we label others because it simplifies our view of the world and essentially stops us thinking to much and enables us to act quicker.

You label someone as stupid, which means you stick the person in a box that will determine how you treat them (according to your notions of how stupid people are to be treated).

You can label someone as creative, clever, funny, mainstream, alternative etc... you stick them in a box, and treat the accordingly.

This sticking people in a box, in my view, stops us from noticing that in most if not all situations, no person is just 1 thing. It blinds you to other aspects of the person. Alternatively, by labelling objects, situations, the world etc as just 1 thing, well it stops you from noticing all the other aspects it is that doesn't fit into your box.

Also, maybe we label because we have to deal with so much and usually, having to notice the multi-faceted nature of the world/universe we exist in might be quite tiring and so we just stick things in boxes and interact with the world based on these boxes - to save energy.

A downside of this, for example, is we see things like how refugees are all being put into 1 box now.... or in the existence of many 'ism'. An upside, is that I guess evolutionary, it meant you acted quick and didn't linger around to discover the subtle details by which time you might be dead or severely injured e.g. see 'lion' box 'dangerous' action 'run'.... in this scenario, result, 'not being eaten'.

 

[Anamarija]

Thanks for opening up this can of worms up Dakota.

I did it not only for my self, I'm aware that many people on this forum avoid commenting (networking) with other because they think of themselves in some form of stupidity. I'm glad that you like my can opener ;).

I suspect it’s very much wrapped up in undue self importance and a form of narcissistic conditioning, certainly I think so in my case. Ones inner consideration is on constant over drive. I recently drafted a long post on the wonderful new session from the C’s - my age old excitability came out as I wanted to share all my research on how water is symbolic of higher ‘divine’ consciousness (information dispersal) in ancient myth and star lore – but then half way through I went ‘this is plain stupid – no one needs to know your ramblings and anyway you can’t compete with all these bright folk who understand the technical aspects of plasma and electrical forces. You're probably just showing off! You’ll make a fool of yourself – AGAIN!’ and so I gave in to the old negative fears and binned it. Over compensation and too much inner consideration. I remember clearly finishing the last volume of the Wave back in 2012 and trudging back through the rain to some grim digs somewhere feeling utterly dejected – because Laura had confirmed for me (that’s how my mind framed the experience I mean) what I had always known – that I was actually structurally, permanently most likely, stupid. That I had no chance of evolving because the basic building blocks were wrongly implanted before I had a chance to even begin and the rest that followed simply confirmed what was always a given.

Because my knowledge of English is quite plain, and yours if quite sophisticated I'm not sure if I understood you right. So, if you didn't post (or you did ) why don't you, even you have a lot arguments to not to, because even we all talk or write about one thing, everyone will (probably) explain in different way. If you wanna share something with others and you have good intention (even sometime is hard to not feel good about yourself when you present your self like smart) it is much better then not to share and give others a chance to learn something.

Even now I think posting this is stupid! Which is why I will post because obviously these loops have to be outed and dealt with. So as others have said, your post Dakota is far from stupid – only someone with intelligence can actually be conscious that they are also far from the full shilling and so we must go on, struggling with our machine, and seeking to grow ourselves despite the programmed call that hiding behind stupidity is the only intelligent thing one should do! Now I lost myself there…

I really appreciate all the information that I can get here, all the science, exploring, studies, but I must admit that I cherish little bit more :P when I can 'touch' someone soul from his post. Thank you, Michael, for that.

 

[Anamarija]

I think the forum may have been blessed countless times for all the posts I've had to throw away for this reason.

And also be thankful to you because of many of your posts that really help someone. Your kind, tender, good and positive attitude is always very fresh and comforting.

 

[edgitarra]

I don't know what you do in your life but if you have a chance to be a teacher you should be ;).

Ed thought this was fun. He remembers a time when helping people brought joy in his life! He also thanks you!

P.S. - Ed is jobless right now, but he will start as a runner next week in a Vietnamese restaurant. :D That said, he is a bit happy he can earn some money again to buy books, or to acquire musical toys, or make a donation.

Just take care of yourself!

 

[luc]

Even now I think posting this is stupid! Which is why I will post because obviously these loops have to be outed and dealt with. So as others have said, your post Dakota is far from stupid – only someone with intelligence can actually be conscious that they are also far from the full shilling and so we must go on, struggling with our machine, and seeking to grow ourselves despite the programmed call that hiding behind stupidity is the only intelligent thing one should do! Now I lost myself there…

I really appreciate all the information that I can get here, all the science, exploring, studies, but I must admit that I cherish little bit more :P when I can 'touch' someone soul from his post. Thank you, Michael, for that.

Michael BC, I think your post was really great and full of insights. Please, just hit the post button - it gets easier each time. At least that's my experience - at times, I still struggle with "post anxiety" (usually, these posts turn out to be the most helpful - curious!), but it got way better by just getting into the habit of hitting that button.

As for the bolded part, Dakota, I think this is important and I feel the same. Yes, the scientific/"intellectual" exchanges here are brilliant and important, but the emotional aspect is hugely important as well IMO. Now to combine these two - what a concept :)

A while back I wrote this in response to similar concerns of "feeling stupid", I repost it here for what it's worth:

...
As others have said, our fear/hesitation when it comes to post something is really "just" a program. Another advice would be, I think, that if you feel uncomfortable when it comes to intellectual discussions and feel you have nothing to contribute, just describe your experiences - that way, you will always contribute something substantial, since it comes from real life, from real experiences. Sometimes I think that the nature of a text-based forum kind of favors the "intellectual types", which can lead to a wrong impression of what is going on. I think it's equally important that people share their experiences, feelings, impressions, reactions etc., and for that, you don't necessarily have to know all the recommended reading list inside out or the subtleties of Gurfjieff's system. Fwiw

 

[Anamarija]

As others have said, our fear/hesitation when it comes to post something is really "just" a program. Another advice would be, I think, that if you feel uncomfortable when it comes to intellectual discussions and feel you have nothing to contribute, just describe your experiences - that way, you will always contribute something substantial, since it comes from real life, from real experiences. Sometimes I think that the nature of a text-based forum kind of favors the "intellectual types", which can lead to a wrong impression of what is going on. I think it's equally important that people share their experiences, feelings, impressions, reactions etc., and for that, you don't necessarily have to know all the recommended reading list inside out or the subtleties of Gurfjieff's system. Fwiw

Totally agree with you and it is amazing to have this forum, community where we can be real us.

But when it comes with other people, beyond this forum comes what C's said about presentation/representation (at least as much I understood that) we cannot show and express this insecurity that we are feeling stupid sometimes or whatever negative emotion, right?

 

[obyvatel]

In my experience, whenever I have looked at someone and branded him/her with some label, sooner or later I have had evidence to suggest otherwise regarding them or have had a situation which showed me how I may behave in certain circumstances would warrant the same label for myself.

I wonder do we label others and put them in the box because we don't want to spend our energy on someone that we don't think that has value? This probably sound nasty, but what happens if we value everything like excellent but really can't found enough energy and time to commit to this?

Hi Dakota,
I think labeling is a habit that we form. Habits are often formed by imitating what others are doing. It is easier to put a label on someone as it simplifies our thinking about that person. It works for both positive labels and negative labels. If someone is labeled "smart" we may accept whatever he/she says on any topic, even if what the person is saying is not within his/her domain of training or expertise. We can see this often in advertising where some celebrity is used to endorse a product to bolster its value in our eyes. Similarly, if someone is labeled "stupid", we give less importance to anything he/she may say.

As to why we do this, it could be an energy-conserving strategy or mental laziness depending on the situation.

I do not think every thing has equal value and deserves our attention and energy equally. But there is a difference between

- I choose not to take seriously what person A is telling me because the topic is not important to me at this time and
- I choose not to take seriously what person A is telling me because A is stupid

In both cases we choose not to spend our energy but the reasons are different. We do not have to denigrate another person to justify what we choose to do or value.

 

[Michael B-C]

This might be slightly off topic but a thought struck be earlier today and it relates to what luc and Dakota touch on above which is the problem within the forum format of moving beyond text and the analytics of the left brain formula fin search of a more in the moment and immediately shared form of communication.

Now many people on this forum - and it usually shows in the number and generosity of their posts - seem to be very comfortable with reaching out and making connection to others through this medium, that they somehow manage to circumnavigate the normal human verbal interaction process and convey genuinely rounded communication skills through what is really only one third of the mirror. What I mean by that is that in studies done in the theatre on how audiences respond to what they are watching for example, it has been found that about 70% of the information received is through body language, about 20% through tone and only about 10% through the actual content of the spoken language itself. Of course without the spoken content the other perceptions would most likely be incomplete - the words giving substance to all other forms of expression - but it is always worth while remembering that for many, posting is like speaking in the dark - bringing up by default all kinds of anxieties that might not otherwise be there if we were in each others presence.

Added to this is the way in which the written form we use - standard keyboard type with wrap around paragraphs - means visually each post looks very similar. Dense text with many personal nuances flattened out by computer type. This, of course, has been a reality of written language since the advent of the printing press but efficiency does iron out complexity of subtext, some shades of emotional intelligence, deliberation, hesitancy, colour, etc. As an aside my son and daughter went through a Steiner school in England and one of the great things they did was to teach writing through art – the letters were treated as colours and shapes and characters – the body was fully engaged in the creation of written words – dance, oral story, painting, etc – we all used to transform written letters/words into pulsing, vibrant, animated containers of expressive energy and thought. The results were that the children learnt to write at an incredible speed as well as leading to a richer and more complex relationship to the written form.

I don’t say all this to downgrade what goes on here – it’s nothing short of a miracle and a blessing beyond measure. But speaking for myself I have feared writing ever since school where it was the standard torture. Essays meant pain. Therefore writing means pain. The meet up groups have been filling that gap I know and that's wonderful, but only those local to each other and those who have the spare time/money can attend. I know from being at only one what a difference it makes to be in proximity and with the time to read each other better through physical interaction, to sense the group energy, to respond in kind to others instinctive and immediate natures etc.

And so I was wondering might there be a half way house - would it be possible to do live sessions via Skype say or some other video stream mechanism (I’m not that genned up on the latest technology) whereby threads could also have some kind of three dimensional aspect, may be at certain times of the week say, like a video chat room? Could people post video posts rather than writing them if they find it easier or feel the need to communicate something truly ‘in person’? Hearing voices, seeing faces, smiles, tears, grimaces etc brings a whole different and richer experience to the mix.

Obviously such a process would need careful moderation (no interaction without a mod present to guide say) but it might be something worth exploring if the technology supports. The written word absolutely has its place, is a great discipline and forces us to search for real clarity of thought and precision of communication. But something similar to what I have suggested might add another valuable level of group development. It might also encourage others to join in more and get over their intellectual inhibitions… whilst of course remembering that this is first and foremost a research group. FWIW.

 

[Michael B-C]

...that I was actually structurally, permanently most likely, stupid. That I had no chance of evolving because the basic building blocks were wrongly implanted before I had a chance to even begin and the rest that followed simply confirmed what was always a given.

I'm glad you wrote that. When I'm not busy talking and acting like I might be actually helping someone and yet seeing it not work out, I feel something akin to what you just described. It also connects back to childhood experiences of being less than I, or someone else, thought I should be or that I'm not up to what a situation seemed to call for.

Having spent most of the day wondering on what bothers me most about this thread, I find that the bother is about me. I seem to find it hard to accept that I won't find the right words and method that will exactly solve someone's problem. I feel the impossibility of being able to do any Work on anyone's behalf. I'm not progressed very far in it myself.

So as others have said, your post Dakota is far from stupid – only someone with intelligence can actually be conscious that they are also far from the full shilling and so we must go on, struggling with our machine, and seeking to grow ourselves despite the programmed call that hiding behind stupidity is the only intelligent thing one should do! Now I lost myself there…

Thanks for that too. That's also one of my tendencies...running out of track before I've finished a train of thought that seemed to start out right. I think the forum may have been blessed countless times for all the posts I've had to throw away for this reason.

The idea of being "far from the full shilling" is interesting. What is the full shilling? Maybe those of us who still feel inadequate in some way(s) are already emotionally biased towards idealizing something we see "out there", feeling a desire to possess it. Suddenly finding that our 'ideal' is 'out there' we begin to feel the old pain of being in scarcity and poverty, but we feel it in a new time frame...now.

The above is a dynamic I have observed in myself. If it feels familiar to anyone else, the question may arise: what is the solution? But I have no solutions for anyone. I can point to ISOTM and suggest people do a keyword search on "suffering" and read everything you find, slowing increasing the scope of the context around it. Then wait for the realization to dawn, if it does. Then see how it ties in with what people on here have been saying all along about conscious suffering, doing what "it" doesn't want to do and serving the needs self has for a unified "I" by serving others to our capacity. At least, that's what the material is saying to me. And it's not like I'm any expert at this of course.

Hey Buddy. You see, what you wrote surprised me because having read a fair number of your posts over the years I was pretty intimidated by how seriously bright you were! Such a dense use of language that I would often have to read your posts a number of times to glean what my 'stupid' senses could. I have perhaps detected a tendency to over elaborate - a failing of mine - but not in a negative sense, more perhaps in line with what you say, that you are so determined to get to the bottom of someones travails that you work and work the thoughts with the hope that somehow clear water will emerge. I also realize that I found the combination of your warm name and harsh avatar picture somewhat disconcerting and anti-thetical. Just shows how our unconscious runs rings around 'us'! I think I understand you better from the above now and you've given me a clue by which to decipher your meaning and intent more easily.

Suffering and slow realization - yes, a long stew in the oven. Managing to serve others whilst going through this process oneself is such a large part of the work here. I know how much you give to that and you set a fine example for others to follow. Thank you for that and for sharing.

 

[Buddy]

Such a dense use of language that I would often have to read your posts a number of times to glean what my 'stupid' senses could. I have perhaps detected a tendency to over elaborate - a failing of mine - but not in a negative sense, more perhaps in line with what you say, that you are so determined to get to the bottom of someones travails that you work and work the thoughts with the hope that somehow clear water will emerge.

An example from real life in the late 80's back home in Georgia: it's natural for me to contact a property owner, a distributor of restaurant equipment and office supplies, a remodeling contractor and to talk with city council members (about permissions and permits) and to organize a project that eventually culminates in the grand opening of a new restaurant for the family to operate. It's not natural for me to negotiate contracts, work with fine print, create specific accounting forms, track food/cost percentages and etc. Such tight focus makes my brain hurt, in a sense. Similarly, and with respect to the forum, I read a post and seem to see all at once what the problem is but converting it into words of explanation is like creating the math to explain a simple falling apple phenomena or a different way to look at something - it uses a different part of the brain - one that requires more work and more time for me.

So, coming from that, part of my Aim here on the forum is to spend time with the details; to concentrate, break my thought down into chunks easier to write out in simple language for others to relate to and understand, I guess. This was suggested to me several times and I've been working on it. I sometimes go into a sort of hyper focus mode, though, where my focus on detail and the time involved seems to make me sound like quite a different person than I am in real life. Like this post is more than a couple lines and so it took me 2 1/2 hours to complete. During its making, a lot of things happened here and I stopped and started several times.

I also realize that I found the combination of your warm name and harsh avatar picture somewhat disconcerting and anti-thetical.

Really? Such a possibility never occurred to me because completely separate contexts. My name was given to me at birth and though I may be clever enough to change it and make it unique, I just don't want to. My avatar is just a pictorial reminder that part of my Aim is to resist the call to go back to ordinary life, so to speak. I guess someone might combine name and avatar in a single frame and conclude some kind of paradox or whatever, like they do for that Magritte painting: The Treachery of Images (This is not a pipe). But when I look at that painting, I just go, "hmmm, ok, it's shaped chocolate with a warning...cool!" I have no idea what goes on in other people's minds, but maybe I just see differently sometimes? :)

To bring this back to the topic title, in real life and like on Skype or whatever, I imagine the discussion would be completely different. Dakota opens a thread titled, "Am I stupid?" In the opening post she lays out her thoughts, connects the concern to other people, to ego, STSness, etc and asks 5 questions. I let it all sink in.

First thing, I want to ask, "What do you mean?", but it might take awhile. Meanwhile, other replys happen, other responses get made and any particular question may lose usefulness or relevance quickly, I suppose.

To go right for my point, I'd probably say something like "I think people use the words like "stupid", not for their grammatical value, but just to verbally express emotion, nothing more. We shout at the TV: "that was just stupid!" and we're just expressing emotion like contempt or anger. If we yell at someone, "you're just stupid", or something like that, there's an added purpose of wanting them to feel bad."

So, it seems that it's just a word we use to express emotion and to make people feel bad. To ask the question "Am I Stupid?" in a serious way, I can't answer, because of how I already see the use for that word. To even say "no" in reply is to validate the underlying assumption that a person could be "stupid" in an objective sense (rather than a pejorative one). If we didn't have words like that, all we could do is grunt loudly and make primal noises. That would probably be better in some circumstances anyway, because at least we could look at a person expressing such emotion without connecting it to our self image/self-worth as a necessary consequence.

How could I have put the above as answers in the framework of those original 5 questions? I couldn't figure that out at the time. Which is probably why I sometimes feel "stupid" - especially when others seem to field such questions quite easily.