analog vs digital

noise said:
I'd like to share a hypothesis.

Take an old fashion camera image, a photograph. It's not going to be such and such mega pixel's, it is a photo and there seems to be a difference. If I understand mega pixel's (MP) correctly for example a 1 MP image there are 1 million pixels. A camera photograph can be enlarged and enlarged and enlarged and it never begins to pixelate. I "imagine a few purposes."

In a 'digital' video I can use certain pixels to program things into your brain that only your subconscious can pick up. In an analog device it is not possible all it does is interlace lines of images at 30 flashes per second on one line and 30 on the other (a fake 60 frames per second). Back to the digital device to a degree each pixel is being programmed.

With for example Operating systems, Windows Vista will pixelate (start blotching the squares) an image faster than a windows XP based computer. I've experienced this in a apples to apples comparison. People who are more photo knowledgable can attest to some of this.

So in simple terms
A mega pixel based image is completely digital - Like a tube light that flashes compared to a natural light bulb.
An analog image of photograph (old style camera) is a still of an image that can be zoomed in and out of, and yes it will blurr cause the camera does not have everything in complete focus, but it does not pixelate.

It's almost like our natural reality is being coated with an artificial surface, IMO. If I wasn't able to get the expression off as clearly as is needed I'll subscribe here and try to help anyone glean some clarity from this hypothesis. Not as clear a writer as I intend to attain to be.
Actually film does pixelate just in a more "organic" way.

Compare these photos taken with a $25 Olympus Trip 35 v s those taken with a $2500 Canon 15megapixel 5D. The film camera is actually "sharper".

Roll your mouse over the second photo (of some trees) and the third photo (of some houses) in the series you'll see some film pixelation.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/olympus/trip-35.htm
 
Organic, that's exactly right Johhno. Thanks for putting it more clearly. I'd add that as you zoom into a digital image it turns into squares of colors, where as in an actual photo seem more to blurr instead of pixelate.

I wonder if there is something to the Digital to Analog TV converter in the way that it would be able to blend out the information that, well, based on this hypothesis of mine, would blend out the data that could be subconsciously picked up.

I'm thinking in Pixels/Digital but I wonder what the default analog resolution of a TV is. I think it is 640X480 with Scan Line Interleaving (SLI), similar to the concept behind another technology that came from the 3DFX voodoo series video card, where one video card renders one line and the other card the other... Then there is the move from CRT monitors to flat panel monitors. Same with Televisions with tubes to LCD/Plasma displays.

Day dreaming about this but, it almost seems like slowly being encapsulated in a kind of hologram.
 
GRiM said:
Its still 35min, but if you subtract intro and outro there is even less "substance" in a product that didn't have much or any to begin with :P
And now what they do is they overlap the intro and outro on a split screen, with commercials running on a ticker at the bottom. I suppose this is to give 60 more seconds or so to advertisements. I hate that they do that, because I'm usually interested in reading the credits, and they can hardly been seen on the split screen because the type is too small.
 
Analogue television is also being phased out in Australia. There are several factors involved of course, but no doubt there is also something more sinister behind it all.

One thing I could NEVER understand was the phasing out of the analogue phone system in Australia (in the late 1990s) in favour of the far less reliable digital service. Back in the early 1990s, you could call just about ANYWHERE in this country with a mobile device, so long as you had line-of-sight with the main transceiver.

This meant two crucial things:

(1) That people living in remote areas had far better coverage than they do now, almost 20 years later!
(2) The number of phone towers in existence was a TINY fraction of the number of towers that exist today, and yet the coverage was WIDER with FEWER towers!

Isn't it ironic that we're supposed to be far more advanced than 20 years ago, and yet in many places in the world you can't even call someone on your mobile now, when it was never a problem in the past. The number of towers that exist now is terrifying, when you look at much of the research into possible causes of cancer. And of course there is the whole HAARP-related issue.

But I am forgetting the far more useful aspects of multimedia messaging, games, and texting which digital phones enjoy. Of course if you're stranded in some remote wilderness, you may not be able to call for help, but at least you'll have your little games to play while you wait to DIE!
 
noise said:
With for example Operating systems, Windows Vista will pixelate (start blotching the squares) an image faster than a windows XP based computer.
I'm not sure what you mean... This should not depend on Operating systems. Some image viewers do not pixelate at great zoom levels, but interpolate between pixels instead; then there are no pixels visible at all.

noise said:
I'm thinking in Pixels/Digital but I wonder what the default analog resolution of a TV is.
It's 576 visible lines for the PAL format. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pal or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ntsc
 
My feeling is that there could be a least three reasons for the push, by the powers that be, for digital. Firstly capitalism & profit, similar reasoning to DVD & HD DVD, new technologies can create new markets.

Then there is control. Back in the 60’s in the UK there was a revolution in broadcasting with new pirate stations popping up on the airwaves weekly, the most famous being Radio Caroline. The British government responded in 1967 by introducing the ‘Marine Broadcast Offences act’. The BBC also responded to the demand in 1967 by launching Radio 1 & totally rearranging its schedules across all its other channels. The digital technology puts broadcasting another step beyond reach for most of the general public. How easy would it be nowadays for a new pirate station to appear over night in the digital bands?

Atmospheric conditions, this is the one that fascinates me the most. Listening to analogue signals gives you the chance to dynamically hear the activity of the atmosphere, Earth & the solar system in the radio spectrum. Digital receivers remove this content & for the most part it is welcomed. But for me it feels sanitised & censored. While you can monitor atmospheric conditions with digital technology you are beholden to computer analysis. Now with digital technology you don’t hear the subtle changes taking place in the atmosphere until the signal drops out completely, then you are left with nothing. If something major were to happen in the atmosphere now, you might not be aware of it at all. Where as with analogue you would hear something.
 
noise said:
…Take an old fashion camera image, a photograph. It's not going to be such and such mega pixel's, it is a photo and there seems to be a difference. If I understand mega pixel's (MP) correctly for example a 1 MP image there are 1 million pixels. A camera photograph can be enlarged and enlarged and enlarged and it never begins to pixelate….

Perhaps I can help clarify some of the differences between analog images and digital images. First, in a digital image (even one that was created by scanning an analog photograph) there is the optical resolution (in the case of digital original we may call it native resolution) and color resolution. In the case of optical resolution, this means the number of pixels (picture elements - basically small color squares) in each dimension, height and width, determines the overall optical detail "resolving capability." A digital image does not have a fixed "size," that is to say, you can change the "final output size" by changing the resolution - pixels per inch or centimeter or whatever - and redistributing the pixels: if you increase the pixels per inch (ppi) of the image (but keep the total number of pixels the same in each dimension) it will decrease the "final output size;" and if you decrease the ppi (keeping the total number of pixels the same) it will increase the "final output size."

Now a 35mm still analog film camera image has a relatively high optical resolution compared to many consumer digital cameras. However, 35mm has relatively low resolution compared to medium (6 x 6 cm) and large (4 x 5 inch & 8 x 10 inch sheet) professional film formats that have enormous resolving power that is hard to compare to any digitally originated image on even professional digital photography equipment commercially available.

To put into perspective the problem of digital images pixelating, you need to understand simply that all digital images are made of pixels, whether originally captured digitally or photographed on analog film and then scanned into a digital version of the analog image. So a relatively low optical resolution digital image, say 1200 pixels by 1500 pixels (1.8 mega pixels), will have a limited amount of photographic detail. This image can be set to 300 ppi for example and get a 4 inch by 5 inch image; this will have relatively large pixels because there are only 300 pixels in one inch. If you compare this to a relatively high optical resolution digital image, say 6000 pixels by 7500 pixels (45 mega pixels), you can set the resolution at 1500 ppi and get a 4 inch by 5 inch image. You will notice that the pixels will be 5 times smaller at this resolution because there are 1500 pixels in one inch. So if you magnify the lower resolution image enough you will begin to see the pixels much quicker because the pixels are relatively large to begin with, whereas with the higher resolution image you can enlarge it 5 times bigger before you begin to see the pixels. Now all of this oversimplified explanation applies much more if you were to print the images than viewing it on a computer monitor where the monitor’s technical specifications (including size, maximum screen resolution, etc.) as well as the software the image is being viewed in and its settings also influence how the image is rendered.

Now, there is also interpolated resolution (as opposed to optical resolution) that cannot add any detail to a digital image but does increase the number of pixels. In other words whether originally digitally captured or photographed on analog film and then scanned, there is the optical resolution of the equipment that is digitizing the image (hardware) and then there is software interpolation which adds pixels by using different math techniques that the user can usually set and adds pixels by averaging values of surrounding pixels. Again this adds to the total number of pixels but cannot add any photographic detail that’s not in the original optical resolution of the image. So while, strictly speaking, the interpolated increase of resolution (adding pixels by software computations) will give the impression that the image may be enlarged more before it starts to pixelate, there will be other loss of quality noticeable in the lack of photographic detail.

The very expensive, highest quality professional digital systems are not cameras but digital backs that attach to a professional film camera where the film back (in the case of medium format roll film - 6 x 6 cm, 6 x 4.5 cm, etc.) or film holder (in the case of view cameras {those that have accordion-like bellows} for large format sheet film - 4 x 5 inch & 8 x 10 inch) would be. These digital systems can theoretically give the same quality as analog film, but there are many practical problems that usually prevent one from obtaining the quality of shooting on film (particularly the larger format films and color reversal film stocks where there is an enormous amount of information captured) and scanning on high quality equipment at high optical resolution and high bit (color resolution) to get a really high quality final image. This is due to the fact that the higher the quality (optical and color resolution) of a digital image is, the larger the file size will be.

While an analog film image will not pixelate when over-enlarged, what happens is the film equivalent: you will start to see film grain and also notice a loss of sharpness when enlarged a great amount.

So now let me explain briefly color resolution measured in bit depth (and there are other aspects that affect image quality but we’ll leave those for now). An 8 bit per color channel RGB image (24 bit image) gives a pretty high color resolution raw image. As you probably know RGB stands for Red, Green, Blue, the primary colors that give the most possible combination of colors (as opposed to CMYK - Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, and Black, for example which is used in printing, which are the complementary colors plus black because you can’t get true black by combining the other three inks and there is a limit in how much ink you can put on the paper before it becomes a soggy mess). There’s also one other important advantage to RGB besides being a much larger color space than CMYK; it is a combination of colored light which comes through transparent media to created the patterns of the image rather than images on paper where a light source reflects off the paper as some colors are absorbed and some are reflected back.

We can only output to whatever device at 8 bits per channel (RGB is a 3 channel color space whereas CMYK is a 4 channel color space). As I said, a 24 bit RGB image is good as a raw scan, however all images need adjustments. Some of the adjustments are due to correcting some things that you don’t like in the original capture, others, in the case of shooting on film and then scanning, are because the scanning equipment added some bias to the image, etc. But whenever you manipulate a digital image in terms of traditional photographic darkroom techniques (adjusting contrast, color shifts, darkness/lightness aka density, etc.) you lose information in the original raw image that you cannot get back. So the basic thing about color resolution is this. In an 8 bit per channel image (24 bit RGB which gives around 16.8 million colors) you have 256 levels (steps or shades) between black and white in each color channel. When you manipulate the image to get it to look the way you want just in the adjustment stage (later you will also target it to the output method) you lose information so that you will be left with something less than 256 levels between black and white in each color channel (so you’re losing color information that was in the raw image by making adjustments). However, if you scan or capture digitally with professional equipment (those professional digital backs I mentions are just high-end scanners that attach to the back of the camera where the film would normally be) the equipment gives you the option to scan at a higher bit than 8 bits per channel - up to 16 bits per channel.

Now to give you an idea of how much color information is added by adding bits per channel, a 14 bit per channel (42 bit RGB) image gives you 16,384 levels between black and white in each color channel (as opposed to 256 for 8 bit) and a 16 bit per channel (48 bit RGB) image gives 65,536 levels in each color channel. Now as I said, you can’t output these high bit images to any commercially available devices - you have to down sample the high bit image to 8 bits per channel after all the adjustments are done. But as you’re doing the adjustments, there are a lot more bits to work with (levels between black and white in each color channel), so that when you are done there are still 8 good bits to choose from when you tell the image editing software (such as Photoshop) to downsample the image to 8 bits per channel. So the new adjusted and downsampled image still has a perfect 256 levels between black and white in each channel.

The significance of this is that if you lose enough levels, the image becomes "posterized." This means that there will be visible abrupt steps between color / shade values losing the photographic details and nuances. It is different than "pixelating" but also creates quality loss. Lose enough levels and it stops looking like a photograph.

I hope this explanation was not too confusing.

Coming to analog film motion picture verses electronic digital video motion picture, we have to add bit rate to the mix which also affects the "smoothness of motion" besides the other aspects of quality discussed above. So we can imagine everything explained above applied to 24 frames per second, the standard "sync sound speed" of film. This means that there are 24 still frames for every second of screen time. Now we are talking about truly colossal digital file sizes to get the same overall quality (amount of information) as film. To get the full quality in every way of a 90 minute finished film onto a video transfer, it would take a very high bit rate and would fill up several DVD’s. Also most consumer DVD players would be unable to read that high of a bit rate. But keep in mind that watching the video on a TV screen, even a very large flat panel, you don’t need to have the highest bit rate (containing all of the quality) of the original film. You can get away with a considerably lower bit rate without noticing a quality loss simply because the original image area size on the film is not being enlarged to the size of the biggest theater screens in a cinema.

Finally, coming back to the possibilities of control and manipulation of the viewers watching a motion picture program, I will say this: no one knows the vulnerabilities and weaknesses in human perception - its capacity to be fooled - better than a filmmaker. On the most basic level, even analog film projection completely fools the viewer, tricks him into seeing many things that are not actually there in reality. First, as mentioned, there are 24 still photos per second of screen time that fool the viewer into seeing motion. This illusion of motion is created in the viewers mind by having a certain frames per second rate that is passed through a film projector. Each frame is pulled into position in the projector, held steady while the projector light shines through it and the lens projecting it onto the screen. Between each frame there is a very small fraction of time when there is nothing on the screen. The viewer fills in these gaps in his mind and creates the illusion of motion from still photo frames.

Then the whole film is shot all out of sequence and then the takes are chosen and edited together to give the illusion of a sequence and continuity of action that is totally unreal. But the viewer basically follows this action in a state of dissociation and suspension of disbelief completely being engrossed by the film. The filmmaker is actually constructing artificial time and space relationships in the viewers’ minds that are completely manufactured and don’t exist in reality. If the film were to break or the projector otherwise malfunctioned or was turned off, the viewer would suddenly snap out of his dissociated state and become much more aware that he’s watching a film. Now if we consider electronic signals creating the motion picture, whole other worlds are opened up to manipulate people’s perceptions, awareness, senses, feeling, etc. Truly scary when you really thing about it.
 
Interesting thread, thanks!

I found it because I searched after hearing some curious things
at a party in Berkeley this weekend. I was talking to an engineer,
and he said that the digital TV is a veritable pandora's box of control
tricks. I pressed him for details as my association with this forum
seems to be ever leading me more strongly to do, and he said a
few things that might be worth trying to verify:

1) That the integrators of the TVs, ie. the companies that turn a
set of Integrated Circuit Chips into a circuit board and a retail
product, have no idea what's really inside those chips.

2) That most of this work is being done inside China, a center
for free thinking

3) That the signal is bi-directional on cable, and can relay back
information from inside a home such as voice, and RFID codes
it finds there.

4) That the speed of the modulation and the processors inside
the TV allow all manner of subliminal overlay to be done to the
images.

He called it "Big Brother TV." If I find any confirmations of any
of this, I'll update.

Tigersoap's post:
Enforcing severe home recording and copying limitations.

made me realize that all-digital technology does allow hidden
watermarks to be inserted inside the videos, and then perhaps
more added by each recording device down the line. Pirateers
can kiss the days of safely making a copy of a movie/show and
giving it to their friend - goodbye.
 
Here is a thought....

What if changing to digital is not just about control, but also about
money? When these analog frequencies become freed up, would the
FCC begin auctions to sell these frequencies to the highest bidder?
Who benefits?

Another thought:

Why am I reminded about the Movie: Independence Day,
Fourth of July - Did you notice the TV getting scrambled
up? Hmm?

Dan
 
Hello,

Some of the most important "benefits" of digital cameras are also miniaturization and greatly increased storage capacity. I can't think of an analogue camera fitting a mobile phone for example. And hard disks and digital storage in general are much better for storing A LOT more information than film without maintenance (changing tapes or film etc). Plus there is the benefit of easier archiving and super fast searching and editing of the footage. All these digital "gifts" can provide more cameras on the streets, more automation in surveillance and indeed more potential for control... But the other side is that almost everyone has some camera nowadays and maybe that can prove usefull in some occasions for documenting various things...

Anyway, in my opinion analog is more or less "dead" since all media are now digitized and even if someone shoots on film, he still has to digitise the video or pictures to make some broader use of them. And in that case we have to deal with both analogue noise (during film printing and scanning) and digital pixelation (during image conversion and compression). So, pragmatically, going digital all the way is hard to be avoided for better or worst!

Just some -late!- thoughts on the occasion of this thread. Thank you!
:)
 
dant;

What would be cool is if they freed up the VHF sound channels for internet radio stations to sprout wings, but I am dreaming.
Check the Wiki's droppings:

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHF

55-72 and 77-88 MHz TV channels 2 through 6, known as "Band I" internationally; a tiny number of HDTV stations will appear here.
...
175-216 MHz television channels 7 - 13, known as "Band III" internationally. A minority of HDTV channels may appear here.

Do these annotations re. HDTV channels mean that the fate of these frequencies is already decided?
 
To see what I mean, google: "DTV FCC Auction analog bandwidth"

And there is talk of auction and this was discussed for some time.
Interesting stuff there...

[edit for example]

See: _http://wireless.fcc.gov/auctions/default.htm?job=auction_factsheet&id=73

And then
from: _http://www.practical-home-theater-guide.com/digital-tv.html

Way back in 1996, the U.S. Congress authorized the distribution of an additional broadcast channel to each broadcast TV station so they start with digital broadcast. In the meantime, they could continue airing analog TV programs over their originally assigned TV channel.
[...]
Yet there is more to the DTV transition! This digital TV transition is also about money. New technology is always good for the economy, but not only. It is also good for the Federal Communications Commission (FCC); the latter represents the US government interstate communications regulating body. The FCC has plans to auction the freed spectrum space once the DTV transition is over; it is expected that this auction will bring in some fifty billion dollars!
[/edit]

Dan
 
Some good reading, thank you dant.

Notable keys for my understanding:

Interesting is that with the coming of digital TV, each broadcast channel still have an analog bandwidth of 6 MHz (8 MHz in most European countries), but then the measured capacity becomes digital. In this respect, each TV channel can carry a digital bitstream having a maximum data rate of up to 19.4 megabit-per-second or 2.375 megabytes-per-second. This is the bitstream required for full HD content.

The savings in bandwidth comes as DTV does not require the full 19.4 MBits/sec. It is all a matter of what the stations put in their allocated 19.4 Mbps bitstream. For example, a TV station may broadcast its HD at 15.5 Mbps or less, to simultaneously broadcast one or two SD channels, plus any other non-video datacasting services. How many channels a broadcaster may fit depends on the adopted quality and compression levels.

This ability to provide either a single full HD feed or multiple lower resolution mixes is often referred to as multicasting. This means that say on channel 21, you could watch the main program channel 21-1 in high definition, plus subchannels 21-2 or 21-3 with local information in standard definition. Alternatively, stations may swap between HDTV and SDTV during different times of the day on the same program channel.

and from another article:

THE FCC AUCTION PLAN: The Lower 700: The spectrum band from 698 to 746 MHz is organized into five auction blocks, three with paired channels (A, B, and C), two as single channel blocks (D and E). Blocks C and D were auctioned in 2002 and 2003

The Upper 700: The spectrum band from 746 to 806 MHz is organized into four auction blocks, each with paired channels, plus 24 MHz reserved for public saftey. Blocks A and B, designated as guard bands, were auctioned in 2001 and 2002.

" This section, consisting of channels 52, 53, 56 to 58, 60 to 62, and 65 to 67, is slated to be divided into five blocks. Four of the five will be channel pairs: 52 and 57, 53 and 58, a pair of 5-MHz channels in 60 and 65, and a pair of 10-MHz channels in 61 to 62 and 66 to 67. Channel pairs can best be used for services that require the same capacity in each direction, like today's cellphone services.
The fifth block will consist of today's channel 56, which is better suited for one-way transmission, such as broadcasting to cellphones. It could also be used for services that can utilize an existing cellphone channel as the return path—for example, video on demand, in which your request is phoned in and then the material is sent to your cellphone over the broadband channel. The FCC plans to offer the blocks in six regional areas, making it simpler for well-funded companies planning to roll out national services to assemble bandwidth.

So, if I read that right, there will be less ULF channels (ie. remaining for new broadcasters) while providing existing broadcasters the ability to subdivide (a term borrowed from real estate development) their existing channels?

The sale of the five blocks will complete the reallocation. The oft-quoted $50 billion valuation for the 108 MHz may be too high, given that the first 24 MHz sold netted $685 million and that the 24-MHz public-safety spectrum won't be sold at all. The $50 billion number comes from a May 2004 estimate by the New America Foundation, a Washington, D.C. based public policy institute, citing FCC and other data. On the other hand, it is possible that the chunks of spectrum auctioned in the first two rounds went cheap because buyers didn't know when they would actually get them.

The New America Foundation, ... weren't they involved in the Patriot Act?
 
hi

going back to the orginal post of this thread.

Apparently, as of February 17, 2009 full-power TV stations will cease broadcasting on their analog channels so that the spectrum they use for analog broadcasting can be reclaimed and used for other important services, such as public saftey (police, fire department, emergency rescue) and advanced wireless services.

Beside the very interesting discussion on the ´advantages´ for manipulation of all kinds of sorts through going digital, this seems to indicate also a reclaiming of frequencies. I am thinking more particular of the VHF and HF frequencies. VHF is used for short range communication (up to 20 km, without repeator), a classic example is walkie talkie. HF is used for long distance communication (up 1000 plus km, and in optimal weather around the world) between two stations with antenna. HF can also be used to send text through telex, the old system prior to the internet. From my experience as humanitarian worker in crisis areas I know these old analog VHF and HF systems are the most reliable. They almost always work. Meaning. you can pass information when all other systems are down, due to natural causes (broken lines, etc) or enforced (for reasons of control of communications, such as in warzones). Digital equipment breaks down easily (due to dust, mud, severe temperatures, etc), is difficult to repair (you need a lot of knowledge, not easy to get spareparts (easier to trace the buyer), and sofisticated equipment to do the repairs) and easier to block. (esp when the signal is transmitted through satellite).

Control of a situation has a direct link with controlling communication. In order to be able to take sound decisions one needs access to objective information. If not it becomes almost impossible. In situations of crisis a breakdown of communication (lack of information) is one the worst things to manage. Panic, fear, undecivisness are immediate. It seems therefor logic from a controllers point of view to take steps towards making these very reliable analog resources unavailable and maybe soon unlawful. First to have this ´reliable, easy to make yourself and more difficult to trace´analog equipment can be linked to anti government activities, second, in case of a crisis, you make sure nobody beside the government forces are able to use analog systems, when all other systems fail. Therefor infomation to the population is easier to manage and manipulate. There is nobody (beyond 20Km) that can pass on objective information.

Once all analog equipment is no longer available, a next logic step could be that nobody is allowed to use VHF and HF frequencies, wheather with analog or digital equipement.

I could be wrong on this one, but I think analog systems are also not able to be linked to satelites. If this is true then the next step (which is already the case for a big chunck of communication) is make communication devices for the public use completely satellite based. The world is devided in grids for satellite coverage, and one switch is enough to black out entire parts of the world of communication. This is what happened frequently when I worked in crisis zone: satellite phones would simply nog function.

Of course selling it as giving the frequencies back to ´ police, fire department, emergency rescue and advanced wireless services´is a nice example of a psychopatic make up activity: we are doing it to be sure we will have all the channels avaible to ´rescue´ you.

Somehow this made me also think about the movie V, where at the end the hero breaks into the government system to pass his message. DId he do this with analog or digital equipment? And on which frequency?
 
I think I'll keep my old TV and antenna, and turn it on once in awhile, to see if there is traffic on it.....
 

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