Antichrist..

[Cyre2067]

I mean, genital mutilation? I'll pass...

It seems that horror movies have taken this odd bend where they don't try to be truly frightening, they're just gross and gore-filled. That's why I don't get the whole Saw thing, they're just dumb, gross, redundent films about some whack job torturing people 'for their own good' - and people go and see them, I think Saw VI is coming out now-ish.

Nemo did you get a chance to read Lasha's article on modern art and how it's been messed with? I mean, when I read the synopsis from imdb I just couldn't get the image of artist's pooh outta ma head.

That's what I'm getting when I feel this movie... it's like someone's mental pooh, all wrapped up in a pretty package and sold to the viewer. Soooo glad I read the synopsis before viewing. I mean....

She attacks her husband mid-coitus in the shed, crushing his genitals with a block of wood. While he is unconscious, She masturbates him until he orgasms, ejaculating blood onto her shirt and face. She then drills a hole through his calf, and bolts a heavy millstone to his leg.

Really? .....reaaally? How is that even... gah, just imagining it is freaking me out. The fact that it was shown at Cannes really proves Lasha's point imho.

 

[Tigersoap]

I haven't seen Antichrist and after reading the whole synopsis, I won't for sure.
There is something that I was pondering this morning and I thought it would be great to have advice on this.

Horror movies have always been a part of the cinematographic industry, it just went stronger and stronger in showing things you would not have imagined before, I am not a specialist of the whole genre but it seems that horror movies went underground for a while but they are coming back stronger, meaner and more mainstream than ever these last few years.
I think this is valid for books as well, look at all the vampire series coming out lately.

As society grew, we were more and more detached from our own feelings and emotions, so instead of being given real tools or stories to confront our own shadow, horror movies filled the gap.

I thought that many people who are not outright pathological, were interested in horror movies, as an unconscious drive to express vicariously angry or violent emotions repressed from early on, as a form of catharsis that can never be fulfilled, it just helps them to be pushed further into a nightmarish state into the unconscious osit.
Also it does not give a very positive outlook on human nature in general.

It made me think how in Japan, mangas were free to explore any kind of topics, from the cutest to the most vile.
And how do we see Japanese people ? as people who repress every emotions since they are babies.

Look at old and well known children stories, like the little red riding hood or The wolf and the seven little goats, they were quite horrific in themselves but they served (I could be wrong) a purpose of teaching children basic knowledge about the world.
Unless they were already created by pathological individuals ?

So horrific stories could not always be a bad thing, as they could help to express the shadowy part we all have but it has become rare.

I suppose I am missing big chunks of what I am trying to express or it's already old news there I hope you see my point.

 

[truth seeker]

I thought that many people who are not outright pathological, were interested in horror movies, as an unconscious drive to express vicariously angry or violent emotions repressed from early on, as a form of catharsis that can never be fulfilled, it just helps them to be pushed further into a nightmarish state into the unconscious osit.

I agree with this. I know someone who's not interested in horror movies but rather what he terms "dark material". As I think about it, it seems that he has identified with material of this genre and in my opinion, romanticizes it and by extension himself. One of the problems as stated by Tigersoap is that it's not truly cathartic but instead becomes a vampiric cycle that in my opinion can leave one emotionally dead.

I wonder if the popularity of these movies is because the people that go to them regularly confuse the rush they feel with being alive?

Also perhaps what make the difference in horrific stories is not only material and intent, but also how much free will it allows the audience to have. Maybe when one is given the freedom to imagine what is happening (through suggestion) as opposed to having it forced on you (specifically and graphically being shown/told about violence), it is more "positive" (for lack of a better word)?

 

[Cyre2067]

Horror movies have always been a part of the cinematographic industry, it just went stronger and stronger in showing things you would not have imagined before, I am not a specialist of the whole genre but it seems that horror movies went underground for a while but they are coming back stronger, meaner and more mainstream than ever these last few years.
I think this is valid for books as well, look at all the vampire series coming out lately.

Part of that is really our natural culture progression, more and more has become 'acceptable', there's an upside and a downside to that. Upside being we can discuss virtually any topic openly, downside being well... the same lol. Reminds me of this article (Moral Endo-skeletons and Exo-skeletons: A Perspective on America's Cultural Divide and Current Crisis).

I wonder how something like Von Triar's work would affect individuals different depending on how they're setup. If you have a strong moral-endoskeleton, where torture, genital mutilation, and the like are just plain disturbing then naturally you're appalled. Perhaps it's also a suggestibility thing (well if it's a movie it has to be considerable).

I also wouldn't consider today's horror a real horror. Something like the original Nightmare on Elm Street seriously SCARED me. It was the situation, the music, the horror of the situation these people found themselves in and the hope that somehow they'd survive. Today's horror are more gore/fright fests, they contain 'sharp jump out at you' moments where the viewer is 'shocked' upright for an instant and disgusting, vile, grotesque gore.

That seems to be the theme with Antichrist, there's that element of traditional horror, but it gets overwhelmed by the ick-gore factor, reducing the film to absurdity.

As has already been said, the bottom line is really the intent, whether one shows dark and horrific things to teach about reality and how to find one's way out of it, or to just wallow in it and encourage it.

Totally, and I think some horror movies can teach us about reality, my favorite - Aliens - coming to mind.

It was interesting to read that bit on the Twilight novels, I had read a few of them, the second and third books, but honestly they're just so dry, empty, lifeless. I can understand how really really really bored people could insert themselves into the drama - that makes sense - but imho there's so much real reality to learn and study the whole prospect just seems boring.

And as for comparing them to Harry Potter... HA. Bella isn't a protagonist by any stretch, she's just some girl to whom all this 'stuff' happens, most of the stuff being pretty dramatic, granted, but her reactions are just pathetic. It screams helpless dependent woman, and I agree with the author - Buffy made a much better protagonist.

 

[VisitorQ]

I recently watched this movie. In my opinion the violent scenes (pretty nasty/extreme stuff I must say) made the movie less interesting. Now the focus is all about these scenes. I think the movie would have been much better if it dared to stay in "the subtle", and avoid this kind of violent "climax". It could have been much better as the "theme" had potential.

Somehow it reminded me of the documentary called "the rape of the soul":

The documentary explores the prevalent use of satanic, sexual, occult and anti-Catholic images in historical and contemporary religious artwork. The film also discusses the mysterious acceptance of the artwork at the highest and most trusted levels of the Catholic Church. The 140-minute film shows a compilation of the events, investigations, discovery and exposure of implanted imagery in religious art. Then it shows the devastating affects of the artwork that is primarily aimed at children and the clergy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-1uYpzLm-4

Powerful sexual/satanic embeds in religious art is an interesting discovery. I guess these kind of things are harder to discern in movies than in pictures. It's a bit
humorous that the church hired these artist (who secretly probably did not like the church very much), and they spent years to make these pictures and artworks filled with sexual and blasphemous embeds just subtle enough to go "under the radar". It also shows how things "repressed" has a tendency to surface in unwanted places. And this movie, Antichrist, is another example of this in my opinion. Von trier has long since admitted that he has a somewhat neurotic relationship to the sexual. So in this movie the neurotic dis-ease is depicted very graphically (like some level of him is trying to tell his more conscious self something). It seems that he has made this movie (perhaps somewhat unconsciously) mostly "for himself", and less for his audience. That was my impression at least.

 

[anothermagyar]

Hi, VisitorQ,

I tried to watch the video and doesn't work.
Looks like You tube removed it.

 

[VisitorQ]

Yea, looks like it. It worked when I posted it. It can be found on torrent sites I would guess...

 

[Cyre2067]

An interesting review was linked by a friend on facebook, it seems like the reviewer doesn't recommend the film so much but saw it as an experience which definitely altered his emotional state. I think the way he discusses the film can be an interesting way for us to see how a naive person may experience the film, and I use that word lightly.

_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7zscsUc4js&feature=player_embedded

 

[Approaching Infinity]

I just stumbled across this regarding LVT. Seems to mesh quite well with what can be gleaned from his films... Also reminds me a LOT of Caricature of Love.

_http://www.cinemaeye.com/index/movienews/more/364/

Bjork: Lars Von Trier is a soul robber
December 29th, 2003 by Cinema Eye

The fallout between Bjork and director Lars Von Trier after the making of Dancer in the Dark is the stuff of indie film legend. Apparently, he traumatize Bjork so severely that she decided to never make another film. Von Trier’s strange relationship with his actresses continued when Nicole Kidman decided not to work with him again after making Dogville.

However, very little has been said about these fallouts. Until now. Bjork recently broke the silence on the 4UM message board of her official site, where she claims that Von Trier is not only a sexist but literally a stealer of women’s souls. What follows is the entirety of her message on this subject.

i was talking to a friend about it recently and i told him that the thing about making that film that upset me most was how cruel lars is to the woman he is working with . not that i can’t take it , because i’m pretty tough and completely capable of defending myself but because my ideals of the ultimate creator were shattered . and my friend said “ what did you expect ? all major directors are “sexist”, a maker is not necessarily an expert in human rights or female /male equality!

my answer was that you can take quite sexist film directors like woody allen or stanley kubrick and still they are the one that provide the soul to their movies . in lars von trier’s case it is not so and he knows it . he needs a female to provide his work soul . and he envies them and hates them for it . so he has to destroy them during the filming . and hide the evidence .
what saves him as an artist though is that he is so painfully honest that even though he will manage to cover up his crime in the “real” world ( he is a genious to set things up that every body thinks it is just his female-actress-at-the-moment imagination , that she is just hysterical or pre-menstrual ) his films become a documentation of this “soul-robbery"."breaking the waves” is the clearest example of that.

bjork.

If there is a lesson to be learned from this sordid affair, it is this: “Women’s souls make for very long and pretentious movies that will win lots of awards in France.”

 

[iloveyoghurt]

A soul robber. While most people will believe Bjork to be speaking metaphorically, I don't doubt the description to be absolutely literal. Not anymore I don't.

Two things I have reflected and pondered on in relation to the horror film discussion, (and many of the generes that fall in between), is:

First, no matter the claimed narrative, the high drama and realistic scenes of tumult displayed, I believe, have huge impact on the senses of any feeling being. These scenes are high extreme, and relentless - bringing no relief for at least 90 mins. The stress on the system I believe is totally underestimated in our modern culture, and I believe it to be overwhelming for the heart and spirit, and absolutely traumatising to the soul. One common self-defending response to the pain of trauma, is to "cut off" from the feelings and to shut down the natural state of feeling, for it is just too, too, shocking and painful.

So what we have as a result, is hordes of viewers walking away from the experience that little more disconnected from their feelings.
Some people will confuse this defense mechanism to disconnect and become "non feeling" with their innate strength of emotional disposition, unique and personal to them :O

My second observation is that, scenes that involve intense (or, not so intense) conflict between victim and victor, or, put another way - winner and loser, (as nearly every single television program, and every single movie - and more - do to varying degrees), and again, whereby the images depicted are highly realistic and tumultuous, the impact on the senses for anyone identifying with the victim, is extreme. In an effort to escape from the pain of identifying with the victim, the viewer is, in the same scene, offered the only alternatively to instead identify with the victor for relief from the discomfort suffered by the victim - the victor is the one in control and not feeling the pain; the perpetrator; the psychopath. Which often does become the outcome: the viewer is slowly conditioned to identify more with the perpetrator.

These scenes bring the opportunity to swap roles, and bring relief from the pain of living life as a victim. In this case we have hordes of viewers leaving the cinemas that have edged that bit closer to feelings of liberation from their own victimhood. But, this has been achieved through identifying now with the victor - the perpetrator.

I may be seeing things through my own subjective filter for sure. I may have an inclination to identify with the victim because I have suffered trauma in my less-than-perfect-life, and I may be making the assumption that others will also tend to identify with the victim in these scenes (at least initially). However, I believe that we are all traumatised (by no accident), and from where comes a painful victimhood that we all carry to varying degrees (consciously or unconsciously). These scenes offer us the alternate role, a seductive offering too, as it carries the illusionary possibility of quick-fix relief from our own suffering that can be difficult to pass up.

It is however a doorway to a one way street from where one may not turn back from. Maybe that is the real horror story. Soul robbery indeed

 

[mkrnhr]

I could be exaggerating, but i found the movie "unwatchable". I stumbled between a few scenes and found it graphically violent. Even if there is a message, there are other ways to convey them. No need for to afflict itself with perversity within an already perverse audiovisual landscape.

 

[ana]

I could be exaggerating, but i found the movie "unwatchable". I stumbled between a few scenes and found it graphically violent. Even if there is a message, there are other ways to convey them. No need for to afflict itself with perversity within an already perverse audiovisual landscape.

You are not alone, same here.

 

[cubbex]

Antichrist..

Highly theatrical, most realistic and deeply philosophical horror movie I have ever seen, it is all about the man, the woman, and their relationships with each others true nature and of course the mighty “nature” alone itself, a surreal nightmare.

Not for the faint hearted thou, believe me on this.

A true masterwork as expected from Mr. von Trier. Well done Sir.

Yeah, I expected this movie would be good enough. Let's see it.

I have seen this movie 5 times

:O

LOL!

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Wait a minute... spiritual meaning with genital mutilation??? lol sure that sounds more like fatalistic poetry.