anxiety, supplements and diet. help please

[nicklebleu]

I reckon too that your best bet is to go back into ketosis.

When you are in ketosis you generally don't need much supplements. The only one I would probably use is magnesium, especially at night, as it tends to improve sleep. I would be especially careful with 5-HTP, as it may - as Laura mentioned - muddle the picture. As to vit D, go out in the sun around midday for a nice tan - this will form the physiologic vitamin D which is sulphated (and which cholecalciferol is not). Have you measured your vit. D levels recently? If not that is something to consider (you need to measure 25-OH-vit D).

Hang in there, mate!

 

[987baz]

BINGO ... Was interested in it, too, and did a little research. Look here for example:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=112281421
http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2293-protein-causing-anxiety/

Here is a possible explanation taken from the first thread:

Here is what I think is happening: Tryptophan is one the body's 20 essential amino acids and is used to create serotonin. Of course, serotonin is the neurotransmitter that is acted on by antidepressants and antianxiety medication (i.e. SSRI-selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor).

High protein diets cause a huge influx of animo acids into the blood stream. Interestingly, the transporter that gets amino acids into the brain is non-specific, meaning that it doesn't care which amino acid it transports into the brain. So when you take a protein shake your introducing all of these amino acids that compete for the transporter that gets them into the brain. Since there is more competition, less trypophan is able to be transported into the brain, and therefore there will be a decrease in the level of serotonin. One side note, carbohydrate intake elevates tryptophan levels by eliciting a release of insulin, which diminishes the levels of competing amino acids.

This theory I derived from a book called Nutrition and Neurotransmitters by Michael Chafetz. It was written in 1990, so it's a little dated. Regardless, it does explain a lot of MY reaction to protein shakes.

wow, thanks so much M.T.! I will check out the threads, definitely seems to be something to this, for me anyway!

I reckon too that your best bet is to go back into ketosis.

When you are in ketosis you generally don't need much supplements. The only one I would probably use is magnesium, especially at night, as it tends to improve sleep. I would be especially careful with 5-HTP, as it may - as Laura mentioned - muddle the picture. As to vit D, go out in the sun around midday for a nice tan - this will form the physiologic vitamin D which is sulphated (and which cholecalciferol is not). Have you measured your vit. D levels recently? If not that is something to consider (you need to measure 25-OH-vit D).

Hang in there, mate!

thanks Nicklebleu,

I haven't measured my vitamin D as yet, i will have to get some more blood tests done, now that I found a Dr that is a bit more open minded (thanks to my naturopath). I do tend to get out in the sun as much as possible, one of the many benefits of being a smoker, as at least i get to get out of my office/classroom every hour or two. The reason I think I may be a bit low on Vit D is that i do tend to feel better when the sun is out and worse when it's cloudy or raining, but it would be good to get the blood tests to make certain of it.

Thanks for words of support mate, hope you're enjoying your holiday

 

[Laura]

Don't bother reading "The Ultra Mind Solution" right now, read "Keto Adapted" by Emmerich.

 

[davey72]

I would think bone broth may help as well while you are transitioning.

 

[truth seeker]

I would think bone broth may help as well while you are transitioning.

Agree, as it has many nutrients in it.

Also, baz, if it turns out that you are allergic to butter, the fat bomb, in my experience can be completely made with lard. Just swap out the butter for it.

 

[davey72]

I would think bone broth may help as well while you are transitioning.

Agree, as it has many nutrients in it.

Also, baz, if it turns out that you are allergic to butter, the fat bomb, in my experience can be completely made with lard. Just swap out the butter for it.

I thought of the bone broth as when i make minw for paleo soup out of the trimmings of a grass fed cow and pig it seems to have way too much fat for the carbs i consume. If i eat it too late in the day then i dont sleep well as i get way too hot. I remember hearing that if you are sleeping in a cold environment that a trick to stay warm is to eat fat before going to sleep as it produces heat while digesting for some reason. I think this would probably be a great way for those on keto to get the required fat in their diets as it is very tasty even with just salt added.

 

[987baz]

Don't bother reading "The Ultra Mind Solution" right now, read "Keto Adapted" by Emmerich.

Thanks Laura, I have "Keto Adapted" and was going to read that next, but I will skip Ultra Mind Solution and go straight to it.

I would think bone broth may help as well while you are transitioning.

Thanks Davey72, I will make sure I have the recipe before I go to shops tomorrow and give it a try!

Also, baz, if it turns out that you are allergic to butter, the fat bomb, in my experience can be completely made with lard. Just swap out the butter for it.

Thanks truth seeker, I will experiment with the fat bomb, as far as I know I don't have a problem with butter, but I might wait a little before making fat bombs, need to get up to speed from the keto thread and "Keto Adapted" book.

Also, i haven't found much relief form taking the 5-HTP so far (100mg once a day), so I will order some GABA. Is there anything else that is recommended?

 

[daddycat]

I thought of the bone broth as when i make minw for paleo soup out of the trimmings of a grass fed cow and pig it seems to have way too much fat for the carbs i consume.

I didn't think there is a ratio of fat to carbs consumed. Carbs can be 0 and I don't think that would affect the amount of fat you can have. I don't even think you can have too much fat unless you are have digestion problems or gaining a lot of weight. I think the problem most people have is that they are not eating enough fat.

 

[Chad]

Hey 987Baz,

I had a long running anxiety issue which began with stress (life/work/moving/an accident) and became a permanent fixture for 12 months where adrenaline would pump to the point of nausea. I had issues doing EE because of a physical ailment but kept pipe breathing daily which did help but required a lot of focus. The supplements i tried were: 5htp, GABA, Melatonin and other herbal supplements from Hops and Valerian to chamomile. For me, these were insufficient; 5HTP (with L-theanine) i was taking 400mg a night for 45 days; not much effect. GABA, 750mg and, well, it's good to have around, but it's not as noticeable as magnesium.

In addition i was having hot baths with magnesium flakes and essential oils (sweet orange/lavender), this helped a little just by way of distraction. Regular stretching helped 'burn' off some of the excess energy which contributed to the feeling of tension, but i was fairly sedentary at the time. I would listen to Sott talk radio or some music, because i found i could do it for longer if i had something to listen to, and i needed at least an hours worth. Everybody is different and i am sorry to hear you are feeling so out of sorts.

The main 'thing' that i felt began to work within a few days was the fat bomb (and i mentioned this in the Keto thread). I think that i was suffering from incredible inflammation (exacerbated by my anxiety) and perhaps my hormones were shot. I can't really say why it worked; perhaps it was the reduction of the physical symptoms that left me with more energy to cope; i can't say for sure. But from reading Gaby's Keto book, some of what i think does correlate with what the ketogenic diet helps sort out - hormones, inflammation etc. The other winner was magnesium; i hear that there's no problem supplementing and using the flakes in the bath and the oil (under the armpits is the least bothersome area); apparently it's difficult to OD on magnesium.

added: my carbs were very low and i was having bone broth 4 x a week for the first 3 months

In general i am prone to feeling anxious - but it'd never interfered with my 'doing' before - due to life experiences and programming, and i found the above addresses the physical manifestations, and yet i also have to address the underlying issues; i have found reading the relevant material from the recommended reading list helpful, but also reading/learning about things quite unrelated help distract me enough to sleep at night. Last nights reading was 'darkness in Tibet'. I just need something to let my mind play with otherwise the odd thought loop pops in to keep me awake!

Also, i've been looking into homeopathic remedies (since there's been a nod fin that general direction) so if you feel the need to 'try' something else in the interim, perhaps try something like that? I've read that Chamomilla (Chamomile) is a good all rounder. But i mention this as an idea, i would second the other comments that diet is much more important.

Since you will be trying the fat bombs and other suggestions, i wish you all the best :)

 

[Chad]

Another thing that keeps popping up in my readings is: ashwagandha. (most major supp suppliers stock a variation, like NOW foods). But i haven't tried it.

_http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-953-ashwagandha.aspx?activeingredientid=953&activeingredientname=ashwagandha

Insufficient Evidence for:

Anxiety. There is some evidence that ashwagandha combined with deep breathing and a specific diet might reduce symptoms of anxiety. The effect of ashwagandha alone in anxiety is unclear.

 

[Carl]

As a longtime sufferer of anxiety, particularly social anxiety, and as somebody who has made a lot of progress with it, particularly in the last few months, what helps me is pretty simple: A very clean keto diet, regular exercise, regular meditation, regular social contact with people whose company I enjoy, and regularly exposing myself to stressful situations while holding my "frame". Massage, bodywork, and other therapies like reiki also help.

In the moment, peep paying attention to posture, breathe deeply, and feel free to stretch out tense muscles. Don't shy away from stuff.

Also, i haven't found much relief form taking the 5-HTP so far (100mg once a day), so I will order some GABA. Is there anything else that is recommended?

L-tryptophan is more effective than 5-HTP in my experience. As far as I know, GABA does not cross the blood brain barrier. L-theanine is an effective relaxant, which I think is the precursor to GABA.

Be careful not to be taking too many supplements at one time, because they can be more trouble than they're worth when you are juggling 10-15 different pills. Best thing to do with supplements, especially mood-related, is to introduce one-by-one, and plot some data throughout the days/weeks by doing some kind of mood questionnaire. It's very subjective of course, but much more accurate than relying on your "System 1" immediate feedback.

Another thing that keeps popping up in my readings is: ashwagandha. (most major supp suppliers stock a variation, like NOW foods). But i haven't tried it.

_http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-953-ashwagandha.aspx?activeingredientid=953&activeingredientname=ashwagandha

Insufficient Evidence for:

Anxiety. There is some evidence that ashwagandha combined with deep breathing and a specific diet might reduce symptoms of anxiety. The effect of ashwagandha alone in anxiety is unclear.

I take this now and again, mainly to help with energy before working out. I don't see a big difference immediately obvious to my "System 1", but it might be worth trying.

 

[Laura]

Just notice that not only were you taking a whole slew of supplements that may not have been helpful, in fact, may have been part of the problem, you were eating a whole lot of foods that are KNOWN immune triggers. For many people, autoimmunity shows up in the brain as depression or anxiety. So you need to get rid of those triggers, get the gut healed most likely. That can take up to two years.

 

[987baz]

Just notice that not only were you taking a whole slew of supplements that may not have been helpful, in fact, may have been part of the problem, you were eating a whole lot of foods that are KNOWN immune triggers. For many people, autoimmunity shows up in the brain as depression or anxiety. So you need to get rid of those triggers, get the gut healed most likely. That can take up to two years.

I'm sorry Laura, I did a search for foods that are known immune triggers and didn't come up with much, would you mind pointing out or at least pointing me in the right direction for that information. As far as supplements go I am only taking magnesium and 5-HTP at the moment, I am thinking of taking melatonin again to help with sleep, at least for a little while. Also for the anxiety a few people have posted about ashwagandha, so I was thinking of giving it a try. Is this ok? Also with healing the gut, apart from removing the triggers, should I be doing something else? probiotics?

As a longtime sufferer of anxiety, particularly social anxiety, and as somebody who has made a lot of progress with it, particularly in the last few months, what helps me is pretty simple: A very clean keto diet, regular exercise, regular meditation, regular social contact with people whose company I enjoy, and regularly exposing myself to stressful situations while holding my "frame". Massage, bodywork, and other therapies like reiki also help.

In the moment, peep paying attention to posture, breathe deeply, and feel free to stretch out tense muscles. Don't shy away from stuff.

Hi Carl, thanks for the advice. I am doing resistance training 3 days a week and walking 30-60 minutes a few days a week. I do pipe breath and POTS every day too. I am working towards full keto diet again. I might give the bodywork/massage a go too. I think regular social contact and exposing myself to to stressful situations is a good idea too. I have a fw close friends who have been a great support and I feel comfortable with them around as they know what I'm going through. Posture is another one for me too, I will pay more attention to it for sure. Thanks again for your advise, most appreciated!

Regular stretching helped 'burn' off some of the excess energy which contributed to the feeling of tension, but i was fairly sedentary at the time. I would listen to Sott talk radio or some music, because i found i could do it for longer if i had something to listen to, and i needed at least an hours worth. Everybody is different and i am sorry to hear you are feeling so out of sorts.

The main 'thing' that i felt began to work within a few days was the fat bomb (and i mentioned this in the Keto thread). I think that i was suffering from incredible inflammation (exacerbated by my anxiety) and perhaps my hormones were shot. I can't really say why it worked; perhaps it was the reduction of the physical symptoms that left me with more energy to cope; i can't say for sure. But from reading Gaby's Keto book, some of what i think does correlate with what the ketogenic diet helps sort out - hormones, inflammation etc. The other winner was magnesium; i hear that there's no problem supplementing and using the flakes in the bath and the oil (under the armpits is the least bothersome area); apparently it's difficult to OD on magnesium.

added: my carbs were very low and i was having bone broth 4 x a week for the first 3 months

In general i am prone to feeling anxious - but it'd never interfered with my 'doing' before - due to life experiences and programming, and i found the above addresses the physical manifestations, and yet i also have to address the underlying issues; i have found reading the relevant material from the recommended reading list helpful, but also reading/learning about things quite unrelated help distract me enough to sleep at night. Last nights reading was 'darkness in Tibet'. I just need something to let my mind play with otherwise the odd thought loop pops in to keep me awake!

Also, i've been looking into homeopathic remedies (since there's been a nod fin that general direction) so if you feel the need to 'try' something else in the interim, perhaps try something like that? I've read that Chamomilla (Chamomile) is a good all rounder. But i mention this as an idea, i would second the other comments that diet is much more important.

Since you will be trying the fat bombs and other suggestions, i wish you all the best :)

hi itellsya, and thank you for sharing your experience with me! I am in the process of downloading all the SOTT Talk shows and have been listening to them every night after doing pipe breath and POTS. I do find it helpful to have it playing when going to sleep, as it helps stop the thought loops!

I will try the simple version of the fat bomb and see how I go, i also want to start on bone broth straight away, I did a search for it and came up with lots of different varieties, was there one in particular that you would recommend? I will also look into the homeopathic side of things, my sister has been seeing one for a whoie and has seen some good results, so I will go and have a chat with him and see what he suggests.

thanks everyone for your advise and support!

 

[davey72]

I thought of the bone broth as when i make minw for paleo soup out of the trimmings of a grass fed cow and pig it seems to have way too much fat for the carbs i consume.

I didn't think there is a ratio of fat to carbs consumed. Carbs can be 0 and I don't think that would affect the amount of fat you can have. I don't even think you can have too much fat unless you are have digestion problems or gaining a lot of weight. I think the problem most people have is that they are not eating enough fat.

This was my point. I cannot see needing amore fat if making broth this way. I am sure one could find the trimmings at a butcher cheap as it is the waste.

 

[RedFox]

Not enough fat plus:

I am doing resistance training 3 days a week and walking 30-60 minutes a few days a week.

Could cause malnutrition (I'm pretty sure some of the child symptoms apply to adult too)
_http://anxietymint.com/symptoms-causes-and-treatment-options-for-anxiety-disorders/

symptoms include:

• Weakness of muscles and fatigue. The muscles of the body appear to waste away and may be left without adequate strength to carry out daily activities.


•Many people complain of tiredness all day and lack of energy. This may also be due to anemia caused by malnutrition.


•Increased susceptibility to infections.


•Delayed and prolonged healing of even small wounds and cuts.


•Irritability and dizziness


•Skin and hair becomes dry. Skin may appear dry, and flaky and hair may turn dry, lifeless, dull and appear like straw. Nails may appear brittle and break easily.


•Some patients suffer from persistent diarrhea or long term constipation.


•Menstruation may be irregular or stop completely in malnourished women.


•Depression is common in malnutrition. This could be both a cause as well as an effect of malnutrition.


Symptoms of malnutrition in children

Symptoms of malnutrition in children include:

•Growth failure. This may be manifested as failure to grow at a normal expected rate in terms of weight, height or both


•Irritability, sluggishness and excessive crying along with behavioral changes like anxiety, attention deficit are common in children with malnutrition.


•The skin becomes dry and flaky and hair may turn dry, dull and straw like in appearance. In addition, there may be hair loss as well.


•Muscle wasting and lack of strength in the muscles. Limbs may appear stick like.


•Swelling of the abdomen and legs. The abdomen is swollen because of lack of strength of the muscles of the abdomen. This causes the contents of the abdomen to bulge out making the abdomen swollen. Legs are swollen due to edema. This is caused due to lack of vital nutrients. These two symptoms are seen in children with severe malnutrition.


•There are classically two types of protein energy malnutrition (PEM) in children. These are Marasmus and Kwashorkor.


•In Marasmus there may be obvious weight loss with muscle wasting. There is little or no fat beneath the skin. The skin folds are thin and the face appears pinched like an old man or monkey. Hair is sparse or brittle.


•In Kwashirkor the child is between 1 and 2 with hair changing color to a listless red, grey or blonde. Face appears round with swollen abdomen and legs. Skin is dry and dark with splits or stretch marks like streaks where stretched.


•In nutritional dwarfism the patient appears stunted in growth.

Focus on trying to get as much fat as you can (animal based fats only), and drop the exercise for now I think.
Meat broth would probably be better for you than bone broth to start with, and chicken/bacon soup with extra butter/fat would help.
L-carnatine may also be useful if you find you are not yet getting energy from fat, as well as ox-bile/lipase for fat digestion and taurine/milk thistle for liver/bile support (if you are malnourished all of these would be important I think). Best to research on these as well as continue reading.