Are modern western Universities worth it?

Atreides

Jedi Master

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If we know there is no such thing as a free lunch, is there such a thing as free education? Is compulsory education free? And what is education? How shall we control the content of education? Is the European educational system better? I mean, most of the EU bureaucrats are the product of it?

Has the last century been an example of controlled devolution and to what degree has education been a part of that?

Can we separate education out as a meaningful variable in a society? Can short term success in countries with free education really be linked to the freeness and not other economic and social pressures? Do certain countries mess up the curve because they have small homogeneous populations and relatively copious natural resources?

Consider this commercial:


Or this one:



Could it be considered odd that people dedicate thousands of man hours to create software that corrects our inability to use our own natural language? Shouldn't this be solved by education?
 
I would say that University is already a thing of the past. If one focalizes on book knowledge alone, it would make sense that access to books was difficult in centuries past. Basically you went to University to learn because there were no other alternatives. Not anymore.
As for skill-based disciplines like medicine and engineering, medicine or engineering schools are needed but they could be affiliated with corresponding industries which consider future employees as an investment. The only thing Universities sell is diploma because employers have not the means of testing the skills of every job seeker but that could change. They often have to re-train new employees anyway.
The market is changing rapidly and many specialties are going to be extinct in a few years if thing keep changing the way they are. University as an institution is one of the last dinosaurs from another era.
 
Universities are a mixed bag, on one hand it's a good way to learn certain things in a classroom setting, with access to teachers and peers who are interested in the same subjects. It can also be a gateway to employment via networking. On the other, it's grossly overpriced, at least in the US. You also learn most of you job-related stuff on site, and university education acts as a primer to give you a base-level of info to start out with.

I just started taking EMT classes back in April, and so far they've been a treasure trove of info on the human body, anatomy - stuff I haven't learned before. The cost of the course was only $1,400. A drop in the bucket compared to the ~$100k I spent on my bachelors and masters programs. I'm also learning life-saving stuff like CPR, how to deal with burns, broken bones, and trauma. Most of it is just to stabilize someone who's critical and then transport to the nearest hospital, but it's still a good step into the world of medicine. Way cheaper than a university education.

If I had to go back and do it all again I'd skip the university bit. It's just too expensive, especially given the internet and the availability of information - you don't need a university anymore.
 
School is helpful as additional motivation guidance and for me, which both the social aspect and having course work helps with. The bad thing is whatever major you pick, the majority of your units you have to take is general education. That really is a bad thing in my opinion, or I would be finished with my degree. For my school it's really insane. It's very very specific. For some schools it is more flexible and smaller component. I'm doing a double major which I guess has made it more bearable. I'm not a good writer and I get to space out the G.E classes more with a 6 year scheme. But it's not something I intended, so I messed up in that regard. I met wonderful professors in both the computer science and math departments of my university, and I'm really grateful for that happening.

It's basically in my view what you make out of it. Going to university or not, you will do most of your studying outside the university or classroom setting. It can definitely be worth it, more than ever so financially, but it depends on the circumstances. Being able to pick where to study is a great opportunity, and it can really work to some people's advantage, but it depends. I am describing the American system and America is a large place.
 
In _https://www.firstthings.com/article/2015/04/the-end-of-the-university Roger Scruton writes:

It seems to me that we have allowed ourselves to be intimidated into the belief that, because universities have libraries, laboratories, learned professors, and substantial endowments, they are also indispensable repositories of knowledge. In the sciences this is true. But it is no longer true in the humanities.
 
In the US, university degrees are a form of barriers to entry for jobs working for someone else, or may be required for certain jobs like doctors or lawyers. So if a person has a goal of one of these jobs, the answer is yes universities are worth it, to get the job. Also, if a person has a goal of a "public service" job, then universities are worth it, because after 10 years working in qualifying public service jobs, federal student loans are forgiven. People can work in public service jobs without degrees, though I think the government subtype tends to favor university degrees in hiring and salary.

Along the lines of barrier to entry, a university degree from a highly regarded university may also be worth it in the job place. Highly regarded is different depending on location. In some locations, alumni networks may dominate, and in those locations a degree from the local university may mean more than a degree from an "elite" university.

Again in the US, a degree from one of these highly regarded universities can result in a huge upward move in economic conditions for children of poor families. For children who recognize that the educational system and highly regarded university degrees provide a means of escape from poor economic conditions, the university can be worth it.

University education may also be valuable to people who knows exactly what they are trying to research and need expensive or otherwise unattainable research resources at the university to accomplish it.

For an 18 year old who doesn't know what to do with life, university education may lead to a student loan trap and wasted years. Going to university after high school without a plan because that's just the thing to do and everybody is doing it is not a good idea.

I think for most people, most of their learning is not related to a university.
 
mkrnhr said:
The market is changing rapidly and many specialties are going to be extinct in a few years if thing keep changing the way they are. University as an institution is one of the last dinosaurs from another era.

There was an article on SoTT as a focus (could not find it) that looked into the business of Bots and how they are being readied to make many peoples educational vocations obsolete. This direction seems to know no bounds; from the legal profession, accounting, management, journalism - Bots writing articles, writing code - and on the list goes. It appears to already be well developed and may further enter and entrench itself upon our everyday lives and interactions. These interactions might leave little room for people who developed higher educational skills to ever apply them (or need to apply them) i.e. people will be replaced; to do what I'm not sure. What then of universities? The educational window that appeared open one minute may well close the next with people needing new direction, and what will that look like?

As the article states, Bots can work twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. These programs can devour libraries of information in no time at all and digest then produce whatever output is desired. Robot technology becomes the physical side, equally entrenching replacing peoples work.

If these technologies advance, as they appear to be doing; incrementally at first as can bee seen, society will dramatically change - it is difficult to even envision the extent of this possibility and yet we seem to be on the threshold without much of a clue.

As an aside, was listening to a woman the other day discuss how her children were not going to be taught how to write anymore in school; printing yes, however, no pen writing skills - if true, that's rather sad.

I'll keep looking for the article.
 
I've always assumed that one attends university to expand one's knowledge, with the ultimate aim of sharing one's expanded knowledge with the next generation of people.

But then I realized that the large majority of students are just attending university in order to "get qualified" for an entry level job in the economy.

I think this is a sign of large scale corruption, of the economic system infiltrating the education system. And it's a total shame!

I am in Chinese Studies, and nearly every major related to it is being "updated" to only offer courses related to China's economy and political science, with Classical Chinese and Cultural/Religious Studies getting thrown out.

Result is that you get a whole lot of students that are just trying to profit from the rise of China's economy, but have zero understanding of China's culture or its past. The ignorance is overwhelming.

Of course, the problem also lies with students being brainwashed to not want take courses that "aren't useful for job interviews", as if everything was built around the idea that university subjects just have to get you "job ready". So when an expert on Chinese internal alchemy arrives at a University, his courses are attended by 2-3 students at most, and some modules have to get canceled because of lack of student participation.

To be honest, I think that the large majority of people sitting in university classes here in Germany should not be there, and rather attend a community college or take up a trade. Unfortunately, the state doesn't protect the few people that actually want to research in the humanities, so most of the endowments go into the natural sciences/law/engineering, with humanities either getting closed down or receiving financial cuts(which are reflected in the laughable libraries that we have here. They largely depend on donations. It's a crazy world)
 
Roger Scruton said:
The years spent at university belong with the rites of initiation studied by the Victorian anthropologists, in which those born into the tribe assume the burden of perpetuating it. If we lose sight of this, it seems to me, then we are in danger of detaching the university from its social and moral purpose, which is that of handing on both a store of knowledge and the culture that makes sense of it.

...

Of course, the culture of the West remains the primary object of study in humanities departments. However, the purpose is not to instill that culture but to repudiate it—to examine it for all the ways in which it sins against the egalitarian worldview. The Marxist theory of ideology, or some feminist, poststructuralist, or Foucauldian descendent of it, will be summoned in proof of the view that the precious achievements of our culture owe their status to the power that speaks through them, and that they are therefore of no intrinsic worth. To put it another way: The old curriculum, which Newman saw as an end in itself, has been demoted to a means. That old curriculum existed, we are told, in order to maintain the hierarchies and distinctions, the forms of exclusion and domination that maintained a ruling elite. Studies in the humanities are now designed to prove this—to show the way in which, through its images, stories, and beliefs, through its works of art, its music, and its language, the culture of the West has no deeper meaning than the power that it served to perpetuate. In this way the whole idea of our inherited culture as an autonomous sphere of moral knowledge, and one that it requires learning, scholarship, and immersion to enhance and retain, is cast to the winds. The university, instead of transmitting culture, exists to deconstruct it, to remove its “aura,” and to leave the student, after four years of intellectual dissipation, with the view that anything goes and nothing matters.

The impression therefore arises that, outside the hard sciences, there is no received body of knowledge, and nothing to learn, save doctrinal attitudes.

...

To doubt those doctrines is to commit deepest heresy, and to pose a threat to the community that the modern university needs. For the modern university tries to cater to students regardless of religion, sex, race, or cultural background, even regardless of ability. It is to a great extent a creation of the state and is fully signed up to the statist idea of what a society should be—namely, a society without distinction. It is therefore as dependent on the belief in equality as Cardinal Newman’s university was dependent on the belief in God. Its purpose is to create a microcosm of the future society, just as Cardinal Newman’s college was a microcosm of the gentleman’s world. And since our inherited culture is a system of distinctions, standing opposed to equality in all the spheres where taste, judgment, and discrimination make their claims, the modern university has no choice but to stand opposed to Western culture.

Hence, despite their innate aspiration to membership, young people are told at university that they come from nowhere and belong to nothing: that all preexisting forms of membership are null and void. They are offered a rite of passage into cultural nothingness, since this is the only way to achieve the egalitarian goal. They are given, in place of the old beliefs of a civilization based on godliness, judgment, and distinction, the new beliefs of a society based in equality and inclusion; they are told that the judgment of other lifestyles is a crime. If the purpose were merely to substitute one belief system for another, it would be open to rational debate. But the purpose is to substitute one community for another.

Which I find quite interesting, though this topic is linking up with the issues of Social Justice Warriors, and although they should take much of the blame for bastardizing education in the modern day, I imagine it's been a slow devolution for a long while.
 
I think it might be useful to distinguish between different functions of the modern university education to see how well the current unis work for each of those:

1) General education / 'wisdom'

I guess this was the core idea of the university - the search for truth, meaning, pondering the deep questions, teaching & learning together, including practical wisdom etc. Today, we mostly associate the humanities and to an extent 'pure science'/basic research with this.

Well, I can't say much about the 'pure science' aspect, though I guess you can still learn a lot in physics, chemistry etc., even though from what I understand these disciplines have gone off the rails as well thanks to the scientific orthodoxy. Same goes for the classic humanities like philosophy or history - you can still learn things at university if you are really interested and committed and you may find some very good professors, though postmodernism has invaded these subjects big time, depending on where you are. The more recent courses such as sociology, various 'fashion' courses that combine all kinds of subjects or even things like gender studies are just crap for the most part IMO and will cause more harm than good.

All in all, if you are seeking wisdom/basic education, I think the universities don't deliver and mostly you are better off doing your own research. In the purely scientific fields it might be a bit different; I guess it's rather hard to study physics in-depth without teachers, study groups and the pressure of exams, but I have no experience there. If I had to pay 100k for a bachelor/master degree, I probably wouldn't bother these days. Heck, I probably wouldn't bother anyway.

2) Job qualification/training

There have been attempts to turn universities into pure 'job training' mills. I think that way they combined the worst of both worlds - you neither get a real general education nor are you qualified for any job, really. What you need in most jobs you can learn 'on the fly'.

Unlike the 'classic fields', things like law/medical schools are more like trade schools. They have the advantage that there simply isn't any other way to enter such professions legally. With engineering/IT etc., it's also more like 'applied science'. Whether those disciplines provide any real-world know-how I can't tell, but we know the state of medicine. From what I've heard from engineers, many end up doing things that have little to do with what they've learned at university. In IT, there are many self-taught people. But especially IT and engineering can lead to good, high-paying jobs, at least here in Germany.

I'd say that sadly, the more practical, job-training-like fields have more merit nowadays than the classic disciplines and still may be worth pursuing. Even if they don't always deliver the necessary know-how because they are neither 'science' nor 'job training', many high-paying jobs simply require these, which brings me to

3) Delivering formal requirements

You just can't be a lawyer, judge, doctor etc. without the degree. Also, most jobs at government agencies are paid and granted strictly according to formal qualification, same for many big corporations. So there's that. However, as things start shifting everywhere, and as the 'currency of degrees' gets more and more inflated, things might slowly change, at least in some fields. But at least in medicine, law and government, things are pretty much set in stone for the time being if you want to enter such careers.

4) Social status/prestige

Here in Europe, academic degrees still have a lot of prestige that may open doors otherwise closed. If you have a PhD (Dr.) here in Germany, for example, many Germans will stand straight and address you as "Mr. Doctor so-and-so" and look up to you. Many Germans put their "Dr." title on their bell, their email signature etc., no matter how worthless and bad their thesis may have been, no matter the discipline. From what I heard it's even worse in Austria :)

But it's a fact that academic degrees still hold some symbolic power in many countries, which can be a huge advantage not to be underestimated. I suspect that this is about to fade though, especially when things get even rougher and practical wisdom/skills finally become valued again.


Generally looking at the costs/benefit ratio, it doesn't look too good these days for universities IMO. They can turn you into a debt slave quickly, and it's not that you will make a fortune with a degree. Even if you get a 'free' education, it still costs a lot, because obviously you can't work full-time while doing it.

All in all, I think there are still good reasons to get a degree and it really depends on the situation. But overall, I think it's less and less worth it, and this trend will only accelerate. There are less and less reasons to go to university instead of 'killing it in the real world' so to speak, plus there is the grave danger to get seriously brainwashed if you are not aware of the corruption/ponerization of academia.

I would say that the most important things we need to learn are practical wisdom, the ability to express our thoughts, connect dots, do our own research, apply our findings etc., which universities don't teach these days.

Maybe in this day and age we would be better off without this old-fashioned system of degrees, hierarchies etc. and just let the market sort it out - straight capitalism on a local level. You know, just call yourself a physician, lawyer or what have you and let people rate you on the net. The only thing that matters is that you can help 'em. Or call yourself a university, administer online courses and tests and produce students that have learned skills of real value - people will hire them like mad.

Just some thoughts.
 
Aside from the fact that I think we've gotten away from the original questions, this discussion is rather productive.

One question that arises in my mind is this: What is the purpose of an institution of anything, much less a university?

When we look at a university, maybe we perceive that it has been constituted not merely to prepare people for jobs (a jobs mill), but that even in that capacity, it has a cultural and moral mandate to perpetuate society.

Because we live within society, we don't often understand how important it is, because we are very rarely without it. I think, in the current social climate, the university (and most institutions) have failed in this respect, which is ultimately why they are worthless.

People don't value things until they are gone, but when they are gone, it's very difficult to get them back.
 
I am going to assume University as 3-5 years of tertiary education level. I did a 5 year engineering degree, 25 years ago, in a communist education system. The curriculum was broad (subjects) and structured. It did not cater for any bridging courses, because of the entrance exams. As one of my Profs said I learned how to find what I would forget or what I did not know in detail. Having migrated to a western system shortly after finishing the studies, I realized that the western degrees were geared as providers of certain expertise as per the brand of the faculty. That was 25 years ago. Since then, the formal tertiary education has become quite 'confused', as the teaching style is either individual or peer enforced, following study guides, the contact with the Profs being done mainly at research level. I often wonder what is the difference between correspondence and on campus studies other than the price? For degree studies you can get the same credits, however, if and only if the university purchased the same tuition program. So universities purchase tuition programs, which they sell to students. This is quite interesting as it seems that currently 'knowledge' is but a commercial 'package' much like any software. Apologies for the oversimplification and generalization. I believe that there are still academics out there passionate for their work. Nevertheless, my point imho is that Universities have changed yet again, and what the sudent pays for is the life experience of learning in a certain environment, that does not necessarily guarantee knowledge or skills, or any kind of work readiness.
Admittedly I have an outsider's opinion so I would welcome any comments that might improve my awareness in the mater.
 
In Poland after System change, universities got more freedom, also people got more freedom to start private universities. The effect is that many universities low their requirements and level of teaching in order to attract more young people of possibilites to gain the qualification, but many students didn't noticed that or do not want to see that fact. Public universieties get their money from the state. The extramural and evening students and any other students from the private universities generally need to pay from their own pocket. It isn't hard to guess that universities shortly start making the business thanks to that situation.

For now sense of studying is on fields of study like, for example, computer science. You can't cheat on math exam or on some course related to the programming. You know or you don't know, friends do not help you on the exam. And thanks to that some fields of study still have some prestige.

The next reason is to study is having passion. Being authentic hobbyist of some field of study can give access to the academic circle and new possibilies of develop, thanks to the various trips, ventures and student initiatives, thanks to the university. Being a student is also good time to start the new relationships (friendly and romantic), there is a time and many situations for it.

Unfortunally the problem with the universities is that they are mostly filled with theoretical knowledge and learning materials are outdated, or they just turn out to be faulty and useless, when somebody go to work.

I think that if somebody is young and have possibility of study and is honestly interested in what he is learning at the university, also if have possibility to study for free and atmoshpere is safe, without overwhelming violance, without beat, drugs, rapes, then one should study and experience that quite nice and interesting time, I think.

Also, it's worth to remember that without universities one could present nice level of knowledge and have a good job. So, it is matter of calculation, what is better for concrete man.
 
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