Are the C's really Lizards?

[history]

How can someone question or dissent here sincerely with successful results?
I ask with all sincerity.

Given that usually most topics on this forum are backed up by hard data I think it comes down to if you're able to take a step back and ask yourself if you really do know what you're talking about.

I guess you need to make room for the painfull experience of realizing that you're not so smart after all and that you actually need the input of others to see the reality as objectively as possible.

That's how I see it though.

Will you clarify "hard data", Tigersoap (great name, BTW!)? My limited understanding of the forum so far is that TPTB and their hard data is programed BS at best or deliberate misinformation at worst. How is any "hard data" anything otherwise?

But to clarify my question further, what I meant to ask was how do I/anyone ask/question the information presented here without what seems like an automatic reply to read the many books supported here with the implication directly or indirectly being that the poster is not knowledgeable/qualified to even be asking such a question without having read several volumes of material?

I understand that there is no free lunch. I have been studying the Work and other topics presented here for many years and I, like many, also work full-time. Therefore, it is not always possible for me to read everything offered before I have a question. Isn't the forum a place for newbies to get some succinct answers to their inquiries while they figure out if the forum is the place for them to spend their time?

And to further respond to your kind comment, I've given up on any illusion that I may have held about any smartness I may possess. That is not where I am coming from, at least, I really don't think so. Where I like to think I am coming from on this inquiry is how do I inquire here asking for some summaries of the beliefs here that will help me start to put the pieces together? Wouldn't that be a good tool to have for anyone wanting to learn more but unable to dive right in immediately? Usually in marketing (if you will) there are brochures with the pertinent information listed produced with the intention of piquing the interest of the reader so they will hopefully dig further.

Just my two pence.

:)

 

[history]

How can someone question or dissent here sincerely with successful results?

I ask with all sincerity.

:D

Success in that area would depend on the strength of your argument and how much sense it made to most people here. But it also depends on what you mean by "successfully dissent".

People here tend to forget that facts, if they are REAL facts, cannot be disputed by anyone, and no sane person would want to. Some of what we discuss here however is not based in proven fact, but is rather a theory based on some facts and some speculation based on other facts or "data". When you're dealing with theories, there is a lot of personal perspective and awareness involved, which makes the particular view point pretty personal, even if it is shared a group of members here.

So the idea that someone could come to this forum and "successfully dissent" in terms of getting everyone here to agree with their perspective which is, by definition, not entirely fact-based and based on their subjective interpretation of data and their own personal experiences and beliefs, well, that's not really realistic. Many people tend to get to the point where they believe that their subjective beliefs are actually objective fact.

Weird.

I meant "successful dissent" in that no-one is offended or banned and everyone feels heard.

Thanks!

 

[Guardian]

But to clarify my question further, what I meant to ask was how do I/anyone ask/question the information presented here without what seems like an automatic reply to read the many books supported here with the implication directly or indirectly being that the poster is not knowledgeable/qualified to even be asking such a question without having read several volumes of material?

I understand that there is no free lunch. I have been studying the Work and other topics presented here for many years and I, like many, also work full-time. Therefore, it is not always possible for me to read everything offered before I have a question.

So basically you're saying you don't have time to read the books that would answer your questions, so you want other people who have read the books to spend their time spoon feeding you the information piecemeal, because that's more convenient for you?

Exactly what makes your time more valuable than theirs?

 

[history]

That is NOT what I meant at all!

Why would you jump to that conclusion?

 

[history]

But to clarify my question further, what I meant to ask was how do I/anyone ask/question the information presented here without what seems like an automatic reply to read the many books supported here with the implication directly or indirectly being that the poster is not knowledgeable/qualified to even be asking such a question without having read several volumes of material?

I understand that there is no free lunch. I have been studying the Work and other topics presented here for many years and I, like many, also work full-time. Therefore, it is not always possible for me to read everything offered before I have a question.

So basically you're saying you don't have time to read the books that would answer your questions, so you want other people who have read the books to spend their time spoon feeding you the information piecemeal, because that's more convenient for you?

Exactly what makes your time more valuable than theirs?

What I meant was, I can't read 15 books before I ask a question. That is not how I learn and I'm not sure why that solicited such a response from you.

Sorry for any offence. None was intended.

 

[Guardian]

What I meant was, I can't read 15 books before I ask a question.

Why not? Why ask the question if you haven't read the material? IF the question matters to you, why not just read the material?

If the topic involves pathology and predation, then yes, I'll jump in, because I've studied everything I can find on that topic, but I have a TON of questions regarding Gurdjieff and the 4th Way stuff that folks will never see.

Since I've only read a tiny fraction of the material, I don't ask questions because I figure the answers are in what I haven't read yet. You don't stop and ask for directions until you've read the map and still can't find your way.

 

[history]

What I meant was, I can't read 15 books before I ask a question.

Why not? Why ask the question if you haven't read the material? IF the question matters to you, why not just read the material?

If the topic involves pathology and predation, then yes, I'll jump in, because I've studied everything I can find on that topic, but I have a TON of questions regarding Gurdjieff and the 4th Way stuff that folks will never see.

Since I've only read a tiny fraction of the material, I don't ask questions because I figure the answers are in what I haven't read yet. You don't stop and ask for directions until you've read the map and still can't find your way.

Because, not all material is worth reading, for one.

Two, just because your way works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone or even anyone else. And sometimes I don't have a map so I ask for one OR gasp, I have a map but can't make sense of it and I ask for help reading the map. Again, not everyone learns or processes data in the same ways, as you clearly know.

I'm intrigued by everything here. I'm just trying to make sense of it in a way that I can understand. I did not say I was not going to read anything suggested. Far from it.

 

[Palinurus]

Where I like to think I am coming from on this inquiry is how do I inquire here asking for some summaries of the beliefs here that will help me start to put the pieces together? Wouldn't that be a good tool to have for anyone wanting to learn more but unable to dive right in immediately? Usually in marketing (if you will) there are brochures with the pertinent information listed produced with the intention of piquing the interest of the reader so they will hopefully dig further.

There are several ways of gathering information in a condensed form all by your own efforts.
First and foremost here is the search function (top of every page) which by using proper terms can disclose a wealth of information already discussed or excerpted or condensed or whatever.
Then, secondly, you can browse the glossary for certain mayor concepts: http://cassiopedia.org/glossary/Main_Page
Thirdly, most boards have so called sticky threads which contain the most valuable information in that particular field or info of otherwise great importance.
Finally, there are the recommended reading lists which give you clues on how to prioritize your way into a specific subject.

But, as the saying goes: You can lead a horse to the water but you cannot make it drink... :P ;)

 

[Guardian]

Because, not all material is worth reading, for one.

Very true, which is why this forum has a reading list.

Two, just because your way works for you

My point it that it's NOT "my way" it's this forum's way. "My way" is to learn by doing more than reading. Reading the material before you ask questions about the material is the way of this forum you've chosen to join.

 

[Renaissance]

Because, not all material is worth reading, for one.

Yes, not all material is worth reading. But we're talking about the recommended reading on the forum, correct? How do you know if any of these books are worth reading if you don't read them?

Generally speaking, I think it can be possible to evaluate some material without fully reading all of it IF you have a strong background in the area as well as in human behavior, pathology, science, history, etc. There needs to be a foundation of knowledge that is used for discernment and that's what the recommended list is for. I think even if someone gives their thoughts, you still cannot know the value until you work through it yourself.

 

[Soluna]

I feel, as I have been reading through some of the copious material provided on this forum and written by Laura, that one of the most frequent points made; is that if you are interested in a subject and/or have more questions regarding the background or the truth of that subject, that you do further reading more specialised to that subject, and often many bibliographical suggestions are made.

Laura has often also made the point that her contact with the C's is viewed as an experiment - nothing seems to be taken at face value and is always scrutinised by her and the team. The fact that they share the raw transcripts with us is just sharing part of their experiment - and at the very top of the transcript database they add this warning:

We strongly discourage people from reading the Cassiopaean transcripts on their own, outside of the context provided by Laura's work, as in our experience people often misinterpret them and tend to project their own ideas, beliefs, and biases onto them. Therefore we advise the reader to read them in context, that is in the Wave and Adventures with Cassiopaea series.

Taking what is read on the forum alone with no context within the rest of the hard work Laura's team puts in is very ignorant, and indeed very misleading - especially when one ignores the very warnings presented by them. The team have themselves said, that it is very probable that some of the transcript material may not be from the expected 'source' and to be skeptical of it - hence their wealth of research and investigation and collection of 'knowledge'. How can one attempt to glean any truth without knowledge?


I know I have a very strong 'be nice, support the underdog' program running, and had to step back and think clearly on the points that the moderators had posted. They 'always' encourage that you not take any information as truth or knowledge by 'faith' alone in what they present - but that you look into the background of their material yourself and draw your own conclusions. Much of their work shares their own journey in doing so, and it is up to you to take that extra step. There is no free lunch, you need to truly understand things for yourself before you can accept things as truth, or misguided, or incorrect or questionable.

 

[Mr. Premise]

Also, History, in addition to what evreryone else has said, a lot has to do with the attitude with which someone asks about an issue. A little humility and some good manners go a long way. And being open to the responses. Which you seem to be, but lastrevolution was lacking all of those things. Personally I think it's OK to ask a question if you haven't read all the material, it is a large amount, as long as you first put a little effort in using the search function and the glossary. Again, it's a question of attitude, effort, and real openness.

 

[lastrevolution]

That is NOT what I meant at all!

Why would you jump to that conclusion?

Take my rope! ;D

 

[Joe]

I meant "successful dissent" in that no-one is offended or banned and everyone feels heard.

Thanks!

That's easy. Just be polite.

 

[Joe]

Because, not all material is worth reading, for one.

Two, just because your way works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone or even anyone else. And sometimes I don't have a map so I ask for one OR gasp, I have a map but can't make sense of it and I ask for help reading the map. Again, not everyone learns or processes data in the same ways, as you clearly know.

I'm intrigued by everything here. I'm just trying to make sense of it in a way that I can understand. I did not say I was not going to read anything suggested. Far from it.

I think you're missing the point that a massive amount of time and effort has gone in to distilling the most useful information from the morass of data out there. You also perhaps fail to understand that each person really does need to do a LOT of work/reading on their own if they aspire to really understanding anything. The point being, even if the amount of suggested reading material seems overwhelming to you, it really is necessary to try and start reading some of it, perhaps the topics that most interest you. No one expects you to read everything on everything, but if you are asking questions on a specific topic, and someone suggests you read a book on that topic, it's not just any old book but a book that we have determined is the best on that particular topic.

Laura's work is a little different in that it offers much more "bang for your buck" so to speak because she has distilled information from many different fields into one book.