Babies feel pain like us

[latulipenoire]

Hello all,

I read an article yesterday and it won't get out of my mind. It tells us that babies feel pain like adults do, and most of them don't receive anesthesics while undergoing medical procedures. I talked about this at my workplace today, expecting that my coworkers would feel at least a bit of unease but nobody seemed the least concerned about the whole issue. I mean, ever since I was a child people around me treated babies like the super sensitive beings that they ought to be and it really seemed to me that there's something very wicked about modern medicine only now realizing that babies suffer like the rest. Am I exaggerating or what? Is this a sign of the times?

Here is the article:http://rt.com/uk/251629-babies-pain-adults-mri/

 

[mkrnhr]

It is concerning indeed. It looks like those Duh research where the results should be obvious to everyone. Other than medical practices, it also relates to the practice of circumcision practiced over generations of little babies. This world looks sometimes like a giant torture chamber.

 

[Meg]

Hi latulipenoire,

A similar article is on Sott here and it is disturbing. What's more disturbing is that they would think babies wouldn't feel pain like adults do (it's pretty obvious they do) and they need an MRI to tell them that!

 

[Nienna]

Hi latulipenoire,

A similar article is on Sott here and it is disturbing. What's more disturbing is that they would think babies wouldn't feel pain like adults do (it's pretty obvious they do) and they need an MRI to tell them that!

I totally agree! While reading that article, all I kept thinking was, "How could anyone ever think that babies don't feel pain?!?" Jeeze Louise! It doesn't take rocket science to grok this. It just takes some common sense and a conscience.

 

[Keit]

I totally agree! While reading that article, all I kept thinking was, "How could anyone ever think that babies don't feel pain?!?" Jeeze Louise! It doesn't take rocket science to grok this. It just takes some common sense and a conscience.

Well, I also heard about this notion, but it had to do with "babies not remembering the pain that was caused to them". Meaning, many doctors here claim that it's not a big deal for a baby to experience pain because they quickly forget about it.

 

[kalibex]

Well, I also heard about this notion, but it had to do with "babies not remembering the pain that was caused to them". Meaning, many doctors here claim that it's not a big deal for a baby to experience pain because they quickly forget about it.

Whereas now of course people're realizing it's more likely traumatic dissociation that's occurring .... sigh

 

[mkrnhr]

Well, I also heard about this notion, but it had to do with "babies not remembering the pain that was caused to them". Meaning, many doctors here claim that it's not a big deal for a baby to experience pain because they quickly forget about it.

Their justification is absurd indeed! Pushing this rhetoric farther, any pain inflicted to anybody, even an adult, is no big deal because someday they'll forget it. Babies are at a crucial stage of brain (and everything else) development, and any traumatic event will leave an imprint forever. Also, even if they forget about it, that doesn't justify the infliction of pain, it's just wrong because it's pain and they feel it.

 

[mimimari]

Well, I also heard about this notion, but it had to do with "babies not remembering the pain that was caused to them". Meaning, many doctors here claim that it's not a big deal for a baby to experience pain because they quickly forget about it

Their justification is absurd indeed! Pushing this rhetoric farther, any pain inflicted to anybody, even an adult, is no big deal because someday they'll forget it. Babies are at a crucial stage of brain (and everything else) development, and any traumatic event will leave an imprint forever. Also, even if they forget about it, that doesn't justify the infliction of pain, it's just wrong because it's pain and they feel it.

I agree. Thinking that babies don't feel pain the same or that they will forget about the pain quickly is very absurd. But, it seems that many people do think this way as shown with circumcision and also in people getting their baby's ears pierced. I don't understand why people pierce their baby's ears at all, and they usually do it when the baby is just a few months old, geez!

 

[Gawan]

Thank you for sharing. And I don't think at all that you are exaggerating.

Well, I also heard about this notion, but it had to do with "babies not remembering the pain that was caused to them". Meaning, many doctors here claim that it's not a big deal for a baby to experience pain because they quickly forget about it.

Their justification is absurd indeed! Pushing this rhetoric farther, any pain inflicted to anybody, even an adult, is no big deal because someday they'll forget it. Babies are at a crucial stage of brain (and everything else) development, and any traumatic event will leave an imprint forever. Also, even if they forget about it, that doesn't justify the infliction of pain, it's just wrong because it's pain and they feel it.

Absolutely and putting them in this horrible MRT chamber is beyond sanity.

 

[shellycheval]

Quote from: Menrva on Today at 06:26:44 AM

Hi latulipenoire,

A similar article is on Sott here and it is disturbing. What's more disturbing is that they would think babies wouldn't feel pain like adults do (it's pretty obvious they do) and they need an MRI to tell them that!


I totally agree! While reading that article, all I kept thinking was, "How could anyone ever think that babies don't feel pain?!?" Jeeze Louise! It doesn't take rocket science to grok this. It just takes some common sense and a conscience.

I agree too. This topic makes me feel physically ill--I can hardly stand to read or think about it. How could this absurd BS notion still be in existence? How and why would ANYONE not think that babies feel pain??? More evidence of the Psychopaths in Power in the field of medicine.

As a 5 year old, in 1959, my foot was cut to the bone and sewed up in the ER without any pain relief. I was screaming like crazy and it took three or four adults to hold me down so the doctor could sew. How or why they did not think I needed something for pain is beyond comprehension. Humanity and the planet are almost beyond hope if the majority of people are this clueless about suffering right in front of them!!!

 

[Palinurus]

This issue reminded me of the opinion of René Descartes --as cited here-- about consciousness as a prerequisite for feeling pain:

The idea that animals might not experience pain or suffering as humans do traces back at least to the 17th-century French philosopher, René Descartes, who argued that animals lack consciousness.[10][11][12] Researchers remained unsure into the 1980s as to whether animals experience pain, and veterinarians trained in the U.S. before 1989 were simply taught to ignore animal pain.[13] In his interactions with scientists and other veterinarians, Bernard Rollin was regularly asked to "prove" that animals are conscious, and to provide "scientifically acceptable" grounds for claiming that they feel pain.[13] Some authors say that the view that animals feel pain differently is now a minority view.[10] Academic reviews of the topic are more equivocal, noting that, although it is likely that some animals have at least simple conscious thoughts and feelings,[14] some authors continue to question how reliably animal mental states can be determined.[11][15]

If I remember correctly, in those days the same or similar was thought about (young) children as they were considered to be not much more than half-conscious animals. Corresponding views prevailed concerning so-called 'primitive' races and especially slaves.

Cruelty abounds almost everywhere...

EDIT: grammar

 

[truth seeker]

This issue reminded me of the opinion of René Descartes --as cited here-- about consciousness as a prerequisite for feeling pain:

The idea that animals might not experience pain or suffering as humans do traces back at least to the 17th-century French philosopher, René Descartes, who argued that animals lack consciousness.[10][11][12] Researchers remained unsure into the 1980s as to whether animals experience pain, and veterinarians trained in the U.S. before 1989 were simply taught to ignore animal pain.[13] In his interactions with scientists and other veterinarians, Bernard Rollin was regularly asked to "prove" that animals are conscious, and to provide "scientifically acceptable" grounds for claiming that they feel pain.[13] Some authors say that the view that animals feel pain differently is now a minority view.[10] Academic reviews of the topic are more equivocal, noting that, although it is likely that some animals have at least simple conscious thoughts and feelings,[14] some authors continue to question how reliably animal mental states can be determined.[11][15]

If I remember correctly, in those days the same or similar was thought about (young) children as they were considered to be not much more than half-conscious animals. Corresponding views prevailed concerning so-called 'primitive' races and especially slaves.

Cruelty abounds almost everywhere...

This was my thought when I read the article. Because pathologicals cannot and do not value the lives of any being in general and considers them as 'other', the "natural' consequence of that train of thought would be dehumanization. This effectively strips all individuals of being considered worthy of receiving humane treatment in any form.

Those who become infected with the same or similar pathological mindset unblinkingly follow suit as the behavior becomes normalized in society. Or so I think.

 

[Aliana]

Quote from: Menrva on Today at 06:26:44 AM

Hi latulipenoire,

A similar article is on Sott here and it is disturbing. What's more disturbing is that they would think babies wouldn't feel pain like adults do (it's pretty obvious they do) and they need an MRI to tell them that!


I totally agree! While reading that article, all I kept thinking was, "How could anyone ever think that babies don't feel pain?!?" Jeeze Louise! It doesn't take rocket science to grok this. It just takes some common sense and a conscience.

I agree too. This topic makes me feel physically ill--I can hardly stand to read or think about it. How could this absurd BS notion still be in existence? How and why would ANYONE not think that babies feel pain??? More evidence of the Psychopaths in Power in the field of medicine.

As a 5 year old, in 1959, my foot was cut to the bone and sewed up in the ER without any pain relief. I was screaming like crazy and it took three or four adults to hold me down so the doctor could sew. How or why they did not think I needed something for pain is beyond comprehension. Humanity and the planet are almost beyond hope if the majority of people are this clueless about suffering right in front of them!!!

I think this speaks volumes about the dehumanizing mind set of the scientific and medical establishment. The fact that a scientific study was conducted to prove that babies feel pain is rather astonishing to anyone with a conscience. When you think about the horrific research that is done on animals and the glib way that many doctors treat patients where they basically throw pills at people with little regard for the consequences, it all fits. Most of these people apparently have no capacity to feel or comprehend the suffering of others. It's scary to realize this, but in a way it's an appropriate wake-up call if people would really think about the implications of this study.

 

[Keit]

I think this speaks volumes about the dehumanizing mind set of the scientific and medical establishment. The fact that a scientific study was conducted to prove that babies feel pain is rather astonishing to anyone with a conscience. When you think about the horrific research that is done on animals and the glib way that many doctors treat patients where they basically throw pills at people with little regard for the consequences, it all fits. Most of these people apparently have no capacity to feel or comprehend the suffering of others. It's scary to realize this, but in a way it's an appropriate wake-up call if people would really think about the implications of this study.

It reminded me of the following quote from Dabrowski's book:

Moral vigilance develops when it is based on the capacity for objective judgment, on the principle of demanding from oneself more than from other people, on an increasingly sharper examination of one's thoughts, feelings, emotions, and actions. However, the most important component of such vigilance would be the faculty for decrying in oneself illusory moral progress, which expresses itself in barely noticeable transformations or in transmutations of certain conspicuous and negative character traits into camouflaged ones.

An illusory progress may, for example, express itself in curbing one's inclination to be vexatious, aggressive, and impolite when dealing with strangers at the cost of increased bad treatment of one's own flesh and blood. Such a curbing of negative inclinations is dictated by awareness that strangers would not tolerate improper demeanor, while one's next of kin may bear it and even conceal it from outsiders.

This example points to a growth in self-preservation tendencies at the cost of social feelings. Another instance of illusory moral progress is suppressing sexual drives and finding compensation in the form of increased erotic phantasies.

Similar phenomena of the compensation mechanism are observed in overcoming the tendency to torment people and in transferring it into a covert or overt tormenting of animals, sometimes under the guise of pseudoscientific aims, or in a formal attack on egoism accompanied by increased self-admiration stemming from a successful attack on this moral defect.

Unfortunately, in the veterinary field there are plenty examples of people, who are supposedly "animal lovers", but there is nothing loving in their useless and needless "scientific experiments" and such. In this case, babies are like animals - practically defenseless in the hands of those, who think they can get away with anything under a guise of "scientific research".

 

[latulipenoire]

I think this speaks volumes about the dehumanizing mind set of the scientific and medical establishment. The fact that a scientific study was conducted to prove that babies feel pain is rather astonishing to anyone with a conscience. When you think about the horrific research that is done on animals and the glib way that many doctors treat patients where they basically throw pills at people with little regard for the consequences, it all fits. Most of these people apparently have no capacity to feel or comprehend the suffering of others. It's scary to realize this, but in a way it's an appropriate wake-up call if people would really think about the implications of this study.

I agree too. This topic makes me feel physically ill--I can hardly stand to read or think about it. How could this absurd BS notion still be in existence? How and why would ANYONE not think that babies feel pain??? More evidence of the Psychopaths in Power in the field of medicine.

As a 5 year old, in 1959, my foot was cut to the bone and sewed up in the ER without any pain relief. I was screaming like crazy and it took three or four adults to hold me down so the doctor could sew. How or why they did not think I needed something for pain is beyond comprehension. Humanity and the planet are almost beyond hope if the majority of people are this clueless about suffering right in front of them!!!

Indeed, to think that only now that some machines and medical authorities have in some way "proved" that babies feel pain! What amazed me most is how people in general trust authorities to just take care of things for them, ignoring our common sense and conscience. Like they must always tell us what to feel!