BBC Speechless, Trader Tells Truth, Collapse Coming..Question(s)

I am not sure where one can go to escape chaos, if it comes to that. Keep your cash in case of a 'bank holiday'. I think they were closed for 2 months during the Depression. Wonder what people will do if they can't swipe a card? Heard an old geezer's story this week of how there were no small game left in the forests during the Depression. You sound like you have more experience than most with 'doing more with less'. Maybe you should be writing up your favorite tips for us.
My favorite theory du jour has them releasing pestilence if the PTB control is truly threatened.
 
dannybananny said:
Regarding feeling that defending oneself is not STO, you might want to reconsider that. You cannot serve others if you are dead, injured or ill.

You are right, I wasn't thinking in that terms of staying alive to help community , and yes we are in the end STS and STO defend themselves, but don't really know if you could after that continue to STO path because of Carma, if it exists for this kind of cases, and if I don't have money to stockpile food and in that case can't survive what's the point in killing when I won't live much longer and would get Carma from killing. And I didn't think economy would totaly collapse, get worse yes but total collapse was not on my mind, I thought Ice age will do that, but I thought that I maybe have more time if it happens next winter, not this, but this is going to come faster it seems.

Hi dannybananny,

If such a thing as karma exists, consider the karmic problems of not protecting the gift of sacred life that was given to you. If a person plans to kill you, they have not only disrespected creation by claiming ownership over your life, but have sinned against their own soul. For they would know that they were risking their life in the attempt to take yours - they would have gambled their life, risking it in the hopes of taking another's for selfish means. If you were to aid in that person's commission of your murder, then perhaps you too would assume the karmic burden. As well, you would be feeding the STS dynamic by facilitating that person's STS behaviour.

It seems to me that we are to respect the sacred gift of life that creation has bestowed upon us and to live it as long as we possibly can.

You appear to be quite down. Is it just this topic or is there something else going on in your life that you might want to discuss in the swamp? This certainly is a depressing topic, but as you probably have noticed, the possibilities of cataclysms and failing economies have been discussed many times on the forum. Is there a reason why you seem so effected now or am I just reading too much into your comments?

Gonzo
 
If such a thing as karma exists, consider the karmic problems of not protecting the gift of sacred life that was given to you. If a person plans to kill you, they have not only disrespected creation by claiming ownership over your life, but have sinned against their own soul. For they would know that they were risking their life in the attempt to take yours - they would have gambled their life, risking it in the hopes of taking another's for selfish means. If you were to aid in that person's commission of your murder, then perhaps you too would assume the karmic burden. As well, you would be feeding the STS dynamic by facilitating that person's STS behaviour.

Didn't think from that perspective, thanks for explaining. You can't in the end live without violence in this world.

You appear to be quite down. Is it just this topic or is there something else going on in your life that you might want to discuss in the swamp? This certainly is a depressing topic, but as you probably have noticed, the possibilities of cataclysms and failing economies have been discussed many times on the forum. Is there a reason why you seem so effected now or am I just reading too much into your comments?

No I'm not down, just wanted to be ready.
 
I appreciate Gonzo's comments as I think much the same way myself. In fact, my whole perspective on life on this planet is being significantly adjusted by reading a book entitled "The 5th Option" by an engineer named Shiller. It was sent to me by one of the mods, Shijing (thank you!) and it is quite a fascinating perspective on life in general and in particular. From a systems engineering perspective, all life on Earth is just part of a system that has an aim and sub-systems that help it achieve those aims. Looking at the history of life rationally, you discover that it is NOT all about humans and some mythical thing called "the sacredness of human life". Human beings are as likely to become extinct - a failed experiment - as any other species. Nowadays, more likely than ever.
 
Something I wrote on the topic some years ago:

Is there a solution?

The obvious solution would be a world in which, at the very least, the psychopath - in government or in society - would be forced to be responsible for unethical behavior. But game-theory modeling demonstrates that selfishness is always the most profitable strategy possible for replicating units.

Could it ever be an evolutionarily stable strategy for people to be innately unselfish?

On the whole, a capacity to cheat, to compete and to lie has proven to be a stupendously successful adaptation. Thus the idea that selection pressure could ever cause saintliness to spread in a society looks implausible in practice. It doesn't seem feasible to outcompete genes which promote competitiveness. "Nice guys" get eaten or outbred. Happy people who are unaware get eaten or outbred. Happiness and niceness today is vanishingly rare, and the misery and suffering of those who are able to truly feel, who are empathic toward other human beings, who have a conscience, is all too common. And the psychopathic manipulations are designed to make psychopaths of us all.

Nevertheless, a predisposition to, conscience, ethics, can prevail if and when it is also able to implement the deepest level of altruism: making the object of its empathy the higher ideal of enhancing free will in the abstract sense, for the sake of others, including our descendants.

In short, our "self-interest" ought to be vested in collectively ensuring that all others are happy and well-disposed too; and in ensuring that children we bring into the world have the option of being constitutionally happy and benevolent toward one another.

This means that if psychopathy threatens the well-being of the group future, then it can be only be dealt with by refusing to allow the self to be dominated by it on an individual, personal basis. Preserving free will for the self in the practical sense, ultimately preserves free will for others. Protection of our own rights AS the rights of others, underwrites the free will position and potential for happiness of all. If mutant psychopaths pose a potential danger then true empathy, true ethics, true conscience, dictates using prophylactic therapy against psychopaths.


And so it is that identifying the psychopath, ceasing our interaction with them, cutting them off from our society, making ourselves unavailable to them as "food" or objects to be conned and used, is the single most effective strategy that we can play.

It seems certain from the evidence that a positive transformation of human nature isn't going to come about through a great spiritual awakening, socio-economic reforms, or a spontaneous desire among the peoples of the world to be nice to each other. But it's quite possible that, in the long run, the psychopathic program of suffering will lose out because misery is not a stable strategy. In a state of increasing misery, victims will seek to escape it; and this seeking will ultimately lead them to inquire into the true state of their misery, and that may lead to a society of intelligent people who will have the collective capacity to do so.
 
Here is the statement by the BBC that it was not a hoax:
_http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2011/09_september/27/statement.shtml

Statement on BBC News channel interview with trader Alessio Rastani

Date: 27.09.2011

The BBC have today issued the following statement regarding an interview with trader Alessio Rastani on the BBC News channel yesterday (Monday 26 September):

"We've carried out detailed investigations and can't find any evidence to suggest that the interview with Alessio Rastani was a hoax. He is an independent market trader and one of a range of voices we've had on air to talk about the recession."

BBC Press Office
 
Human beings are as likely to become extinct - a failed experiment - as any other species. Nowadays, more likely than ever.

Yes, yesterday I told my family about possible collapse and what they did is that they laughed. Can you imagine that. They are concerned right know how to go to wedding to cousin in Switzerland, I don't give a damn about it. And sister is concerned about her wedding also that she plans to have soon, and my mother is always asking me why don't you have girlfriend, etc... and all that frankly pisses me of, not that I'm not pissed of most of the time when concentrated what is happening in the world, but I manage to control it most of the time if I want, which is better then be afraid, sometimes righteous anger turned me when I was still competing berserker in sport and then I was unstoppable but today I manage to control it(but it's not constructive anger, it's negative - wanting to take things in my own hands) , but that's probably the genetics because my family is very emotional and mostly uses it in negative way, I can't remember when there wasn't one day when someone didn't argue, only my father doesn't argue with me, but it seems I'm like a primary target when mother and sister get upset, and my father knows it doesn't have any influence over me, but mother and sister can be sometimes damn stubborn. But in a way I'm scared about future, or better say concerned because my parents and how would I handle it, but when I got deppresed sometimes I don't care about what will happen. Which is better to be than be scared what I was most of my life, didn't really liked violence because I was scared but it always was accompanying me, so I did some sport which did things even worse, made more nervous. But luckily I found work, meditation and this forum that and I learned how to deal with fear and made me a better men then I would ever be, gave me some thing worth fighting for and dieing for because that's the only thing I truly have, all other is stupidity, like when I don't fight for something righteous I lose all my strength. I thought work will gave me some peace, it did but I forgot that peace is achieved through war, there is only war when you look at it, just I had hard time accepting it which is way I replied to gonzo in that way I did. I was a bit uncomfortable to write about my emotions because I always thought it will look weak, but that is probably a program and another program is maybe unimportance because nobody didn't really listen to me when I was kid, and from my experience I know emotions can be real source of inner strength if we accept them and put down the mask, in the end I'm only 3D human. This maybe needs to go to Swamp.
 
Hi dannybannany,

db said:
Didn't think from that perspective, thanks for explaining. You can't in the end live without violence in this world.

The question of violence and peaceful cooperation is a very tricky one, it appears humans are pre-disposed to violence or immediate worry for there safety and wellbeing in our current environment. A few good sayings, this is on war but you can take it for violence aswell,

Wars begin when you will, but they do not end when you please. - Niccolò Machiavelli
For what can war, but endless war, still breed? - John Milton
Peace hath her victories, no less renowned than War. - John Milton
War is delightful to those who have had no experience of it. - Desiderius Erasmus

Whatever may happen in future, chances are, whatever plans people have made will immediately be thrown out the window, it appears to me, the whole point of a cataclysm is to take away the illusion of control people think they have, the time that has passed has been ruled by those who take up arms and go around pillaging others, if that is the law that rules who survives and who doesn't, then I guess violence is the only way. Psychopaths in that case shouldn't be that worried, it appears they will continue to be needed.

Also,

It is always easier to fight for one’s principles than to live up to them. - Alfred Adler

I don't know what it is to be STO but I suppose we kind of know abit of the struggle to try to be STO, reading, gaining knowledge, diet, doing the work etc but when it comes to it, can anyone live up to them?
 
dannybananny said:
Human beings are as likely to become extinct - a failed experiment - as any other species. Nowadays, more likely than ever.

Yes, yesterday I told my family about possible collapse and what they did is that they laughed. Can you imagine that. They are concerned right know how to go to wedding to cousin in Switzerland, I don't give a damn about it.

You should go to the wedding and show some enthusiasm for life. I would go and do it for the other people.

dannybananny said:
And sister is concerned about her wedding also that she plans to have soon,

It's her right to be doing what she likes and wants to do. Sounds like this is all about you and not any external considering or mastering yourself.

dannybananny said:
and my mother is always asking me why don't you have girlfriend, etc... and all that frankly pisses me of, not that I'm not pissed of most of the time when concentrated what is happening in the world, but I manage to control it most of the time if I want, which is better then be afraid, sometimes righteous anger turned me when I was still competing berserker in sport and then I was unstoppable but today I manage to control it(but it's not constructive anger, it's negative - wanting to take things in my own hands) , but that's probably the genetics because my family is very emotional and mostly uses it in negative way, I can't remember when there wasn't one day when someone didn't argue, only my father doesn't argue with me, but it seems I'm like a primary target when mother and sister get upset, and my father knows it doesn't have any influence over me, but mother and sister can be sometimes damn stubborn.

Sounds to me like you are in exactly the right family and situation to learn to master yourself and consider others.

I enjoy my family each and every moment of every day. We all know that the future is uncertain, but we aren't going to go and hide out somewhere. We continue to work on building our businesses, our relationships, our networks... we celebrate birthdays, play with our dogs, have an interest in our hair, what we wear - all the normal things of life because, as far as we KNOW, life goes on one way or the other and it's all about BEing yourself fully in any given moment.

dannybananny said:
But in a way I'm scared about future, or better say concerned because my parents and how would I handle it, but when I got deppresed sometimes I don't care about what will happen. Which is better to be than be scared what I was most of my life, didn't really liked violence because I was scared but it always was accompanying me, so I did some sport which did things even worse, made more nervous. But luckily I found work, meditation and this forum that and I learned how to deal with fear and made me a better men then I would ever be, gave me some thing worth fighting for and dieing for because that's the only thing I truly have, all other is stupidity, like when I don't fight for something righteous I lose all my strength. I thought work will gave me some peace, it did but I forgot that peace is achieved through war, there is only war when you look at it, just I had hard time accepting it which is way I replied to gonzo in that way I did. I was a bit uncomfortable to write about my emotions because I always thought it will look weak, but that is probably a program and another program is maybe unimportance because nobody didn't really listen to me when I was kid, and from my experience I know emotions can be real source of inner strength if we accept them and put down the mask, in the end I'm only 3D human. This maybe needs to go to Swamp.

I think you are doing fine, all things considered. You just need to do some extra pipe breathing now and then throughout the day. As Gurdjieff pointed out, we are each in the exact right situation to practice what it is we need to learn.

I'm sitting here facing jail due to the machinations of a psychopathic world. Obviously, my lessons are different from yours and mastering myself in this situation is somewhat different than dealing with family life. But I guess it is exactly what I need for this next level of mastery...

Can you master yourself, be a light to others no matter what is happening? That's your task.
 
The question of violence and peaceful cooperation is a very tricky one, it appears humans are pre-disposed to violence or immediate worry for there safety and wellbeing in our current environment. A few good sayings, this is on war but you can take it for violence aswell,

There can't be peace never if both sides aren't willing to have peace, and psychopaths and STS civilizations aren't, so the war is only answer in the end, but I was referring more to struggle, inner or outer struggle, it's always there, even when you go to higher densities, it's eternal.

Wars begin when you will, but they do not end when you please. - Niccolò Machiavelli
For what can war, but endless war, still breed? - John Milton
Peace hath her victories, no less renowned than War. - John Milton
War is delightful to those who have had no experience of it. - Desiderius Erasmus
I like this one:
Give me the money that has been spent in war and I will clothe every man, woman, and child in an attire of which kings and queens will be proud. I will build a schoolhouse in every valley over the whole earth. I will crown every hillside with a place of worship consecrated to peace. ~Charles Sumner

If we can't have universal peace then we can at least strive to global peace. But the irony of this in my case is that I know a bit about ancient, medieval, post-medieval, etc... warfare. I was a history freak, and learned a lot when was younger about military history, units through strategic history games like Rome TW, etc.. was always interested how it all was, but through images I learned more, it also helped me to pass some exams from history, so it was a bit beneficial in the end. But Erasmus in the end said it right, I can see it also in a sport when people criticize some team or player, and those who are doing it are those who never experienced how is it to sweat.

It's her right to be doing what she likes and wants to do. Sounds like this is all about you and not any external considering or mastering yourself.

I never told her that she shouldn't do it, it's her right, just I was internally thinking how it's sad in a way from my perspective, but it's her choice, I would never go against someone's else will.

Sounds to me like you are in exactly the right family and situation to learn to master yourself and consider others.

Probably.

Can you master yourself, be a light to others no matter what is happening? That's your task.

I don't really have a choice because life will gone continue with slapping me, again, and again.

You should go to the wedding and show some enthusiasm for life. I would go and do it for the other people.

I'll think about it. :)
 
Hey dannybananny,

I am replying back to you because I want to explore more this subject of violence and you have very good ideas,

db said:
There can't be peace never if both sides aren't willing to have peace, and psychopaths and STS civilizations aren't, so the war is only answer in the end, but I was referring more to struggle, inner or outer struggle, it's always there, even when you go to higher densities, it's eternal.

Why does inner or outer struggle have to be violent, struggle can come through constraint, through trying to understand another.. Through awareness/knowledge and external consideration I think violence can be avoided for the most part. In my opinion, there can be no peace through war, the two are opposed, surely you can beat your opponent to submission but sooner or later, the tables will turn.

Also when does to protect yourself and those you care about encroach on others liberties? If I have no food and someone else does, if I go and be violent upon him, and I take his food and feed my family/community, is that STO/STS, take this and multiply from person to person, onto community vs community, country vs country and I think you have something that looks like the world today.

When does violence stop? Who determines when it stops? My point is, if you become violent upon another, you don't know what you are releasing, a victory here might unleash a great loss somewhere else, maybe a great distance in the future, or in another aspect that is immediately veiled from you.

I see peace and coorparation having as great if not greater and as glorious demenour to it as violence and domination.

I won't pretend to have the answer for peace and war, I know if one person is intent on killing you, then you either die or defend yourself most probably by being violent but I think the situation is extraordinarily complex that what we see isn't all there is but inorder to even begin to change how something is, then somewhere the chain of events has to be broken by someone making a different decision.

These are just my thoughts..

Here is an interesting exert..

Recall the story. Abel is the keeper of sheep, and his sacrifice of the firstlings of the flock is accepted by the Lord. Cain is a tiller of the ground whose sacrifice of the first fruits of the earth is not accepted by the Lord.

Abel is the sacrificer who becomes the sacrifice. Cain slays Abel, and the spilled blood of Abel calls out from the ground to the Lord. Abel also now speaks and lives in Cain, for bloodshed brings role-reversal, and Cain becomes the suffering victim. No longer will Cain be a tiller of the ground. His life takes the form of a vagabond wanderer, the life of an animal. He believes that every man he meets will kill him. This animal fear is his guilt, and it is not forgiven. The Lord promises only that, if Cain is slain, the pattern of victimization will continue and escalate for "whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold."

My case is, don't just be violent without not knowing what consequences you are setting up for yourself and those you care about and love.. Instead of protecting them, you could be condemning them..
 
dannybananny said:
There can't be peace never if both sides aren't willing to have peace, and psychopaths and STS civilizations aren't, so the war is only answer in the end, but I was referring more to struggle, inner or outer struggle, it's always there, even when you go to higher densities, it's eternal.
[...]
If we can't have universal peace then we can at least strive to global peace.

But there are also cycles within cycles. There is a time of peace, a time of war, times of happiness, times of sadness and so forth. And then there are the dualities, darkness and light, good and evil, war and peace. This, I think, is natural. The Universe striving for balance.
There is a lot of darkness on this planet, but there is also some beauty to be found, perhaps in your family, the trees, the sunny day, the lessons you learn or something else. If you focus too much on the darkness, you might forget the beauty in life, and maybe those around you who care a lot about you.

In a way, things are designed, for everyone to learn their lessons. And I think there is learning in dark times and in good times, and both, whatever fits a certain person at a certain moment.

If you would have the money and power, and decide to create peace on the whole world, because you want it to be that way, you can take away the lessons people have chosen to learn. Maybe some people need to go through rough times first (by choice), before they develop a desire for peace or knowledge, in some way. Maybe we just gotta do what we do, helping ourselves first and those who ask, and being there for our loved ones, and having faith in the Universe and in the natural way things go. Here is one quote from Laura that I find very inspiring:

There are people whose job it is to just be sweet, loving and caring and it is the job of warriors to look after them. It's that simple.

I guess the point maybe is, to try to view things from a bigger perspective as well. Just my thoughts, I could be wrong in this.
 
It's completely natural to want to share with friends and family your realization of the horrors of the world. We can be terrified and want their support, we can be frustrated with ignorance and want them to share in knowledge, we want to protect them. This is natural. However, it is not necessarily intelligent. External consideration protects us as much as it protects those around us. It protects us from being taken off our paths or attacked by those who want us to think differently. It also protects us from violating the free will of others to choose where their attention is directed and what they want to learn. It protects them from hearing truths they may not be prepared to hear, from knowledge they may not be ready to acquire. It protects their learning path so that the insights they develop are gained from the experiences they have in proportion to their level of awareness. I struggle with this constantly, but get better each day.

Family is to be cherished wherever and whenever possible. I find some times, when family is ignorant of the horrors I've discovered, they afford me a buffer or an escape from the terrifying reality outside. They provide sanctuary. Thus it is incredibly sad when people don't have a family where they are safe from the horrors of the world outside.

Life is to be lived. Communal celebration of any occasion is a time for joy, a time to drop your load at the door and share in song, drink, food and dance. Cherish those moments as much as you can. They don't happen enough, in my mind.

Having said that, I certainly understand how obsessed a bride-to-be can be as they focus every ounce of their being in planning and dreaming about their wedding.

I also know how difficult it can be to be the target in the family. Like Laura said, you have the perfect family to learn self mastery. Try to find a way to deepen your love for them while becoming impervious to whatever attacks come your way. This is no different that the reality of the world beyond your family's doorstep. We are charged with seeing the spark of divine creation in every human. We are asked to reflect creation's love of us to all of creation. This is part of life's work and you have a lifetime to master it.

Look for the Divine Cosmic Mind - the holy awareness that is in all creation, let it rule your mind, save your soul and live within you each and every day.

It's exceedingly hard, which is why it's called Work. But it is what we are being called to do, OSIT.

Gonzo
 
Gonzo said:
Family is to be cherished wherever and whenever possible. I find some times, when family is ignorant of the horrors I've discovered, they afford me a buffer or an escape from the terrifying reality outside. They provide sanctuary. Thus it is incredibly sad when people don't have a family where they are safe from the horrors of the world outside.

It sounds like you use your family to escape into illusion?
 
anart said:
Gonzo said:
Family is to be cherished wherever and whenever possible. I find some times, when family is ignorant of the horrors I've discovered, they afford me a buffer or an escape from the terrifying reality outside. They provide sanctuary. Thus it is incredibly sad when people don't have a family where they are safe from the horrors of the world outside.

It sounds like you use your family to escape into illusion?

I don't think that is what was meant. I understood it completely because we, here, often "escape" into our family (extended family). We have birthdays and we watch TV shows together to unwind. We deliberately take our attention away from the horror we face every day and turn it toward enjoying each other's company. We are easily amused because very simple things bring pleasure and we have learned to appreciate these small things because we know how fleeting they may be.
 
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