Benedictus XVI declaration about Islam

[Pierre]

Victor L. Simpson, Canadian Press
Published: Thursday, September 14, 2006

REGENSBURG, Germany (AP) - Pope Benedict stepped into the controversy over Islam and violence Tuesday, citing historic Christian commentary on holy war and forced conversion.

In a speech at the university where he once taught theology, Benedict made an unusual reference to jihad, or holy war - a concept used by today's Islamic extremists in an effort to justify suicide bombings and other attacks on the West.

Benedict's speech was about faith and reason, and how they cannot be separated and are essential for "that genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today."

The German Roman Catholic Pope quoted from a book recounting a conversation between a 14th century Byzantine Christian Emperor Manuel Paleologos II and an educated Persian on the truths of Christianity and Islam.

"The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," the Pope said.

"He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached,' " he quoted the emperor as saying.

Clearly aware of the delicacy of the issue, Benedict added, "I quote," twice before pronouncing the phrases on Islam and described them as "brusque," while neither explicitly agreeing with nor repudiating them.

"The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable," Benedict said. He did not relate the Persian scholar's response to the emperor.

"Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul," the pontiff said.

Vatican spokesman Rev. Federico Lombardi said the Pope was not giving an interpretation of Islam as "something violent" although the spokesman said the religion contains both violent and non-violent strains.

Benedict did not touch directly on the current controversy over Islamic extremism, although it is an issue he follows closely with concern. In Cologne, Germany, last year he urged Islamic leaders to take responsibility for their communities and teach their young to abhor violence.

Last week, he told a gathering in Assisi, Italy, of Christian, Muslim and Jewish representatives that no one can "use the motive of religious difference as a reason or pretext for bellicose behaviour toward other human beings."

Benedict will make his first visit to a Muslim country in November, when he is scheduled to travel to Turkey.

Gerlinde Axmann, a 40-year-old social worker, watched the speech on one of the large screens set up in the square near the cathedral.

"That was a very important start to dialogue with Muslims amid the terrorist threat," she said, calling Benedict's appeal to reason "a building block toward finding a way to argue with each other without using weapons."

"I think it's very important for him to bring these things up in society," she said. "Muslims aren't going to take us seriously until we become conscious of our own values. For example, they take the Pope much more seriously than others in the West."

If we read behind those typically psychopathic maneuvers of saying without saying, not saying but quoting (twice), not pointing but touching, not interpretating but mentioning, not attacking but starting a dialogue... we might see that the Pope is pouring some more oil on the fire by stating that muslins are violent blind believer and on the contrary Christians are non violent individuals inspired by faith and reason.

 

[Art]

Indeed, Axel.
Pope's schizoid declarations, saying without saying, are accurately targeted to feed the fire.
"a building block toward finding a way to argue with each other without using weapons" well... that is Evil!
Institutionally Evil.
Do you remember the photos of Benedictus where he had hornes and satanic features? Were circulating in the first months of its arrival to the papal chair.
<<"The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable," Benedict said.>>
Gee... How can he say or quote that?
High-School Ponerology.
I do not think the "Pope" is on the spiritual war arena. For the very least he just managed to embarrass him self. The spiritual war arena has swallowed the institution such a figure represents, leaving it so behind he can no longer see where is the front line.
And the leaders of the other churches are playing the same blind and blinding game. They are just on the war for power, drawing the plan at large: Eliminate Arab World. THAT is what it is all about for them.
It is just so clear!
In a world where normal people would be leading, the Pope would had to be sanctioned by Human Rights organizations. But in our courrent world, maybe Human Rights organizations will even give him a medal!

 

[Pierre]

According to Malachy's propecies (http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/malachy.asp), Benedictus XVI is "Gloria Olivae" (glory of the olives).

This title led to many interpretations. I would be interested to know what the Cs think about it.

However, if Benedictus keeps on exacerbating religious hatreds, he won't be the "Gloria oliv

 

[Ryan]

Interesting Axel... Jerusalem has the Mount of Olives, as well - a very symbolic location.

In the Book of Zechariah the Mount of Olives is identified as the place from which God will begin to redeem the dead at the end of days.

 

[Snowalker]

I have always understood the term Jihad to mean "Holy War" as in the war within oneself against those forces who would keep us enslaved to egotism, and a STS orientation. The corruption of this term is no different than the corruption of the same teachings from Christian sources. Psychopaths exist in the muslim world in the same way they exist in the Christian world and, to my mind, are both working in concert to undermine the true teachings of their respective religeons in order to control and consume.

What the current Pope is doing makes perfect sense based on this understanding. His counterparts in the Muslim faith will no doubt escalate this issue to its logical conclusion. There is no stopping them.

 

[Pierre]

A central question to correctly understand those different statements about Glory, Holiness, God, deads,... is to assess the sources in order to know better what is the definition behind those words and what is the potential agenda / paradigm of the different authors.

For example, the god mentioned in Ezekia's book (Ryan's post) might be quite different (opposite ?) from the definition of God that some of us hold.

 

[name]

as outrageous this is, we should not judge the pope and his actions in moral categories, nor should we do that with anything coming from either the catholic church nor from any other religious group. right now, the catholic church wants blood, and blood by the bucket they will get. judging from the reactions elicited until now, the speech was a full success.

the speech is a masterpiece in the art of destructive rhetoric. it is on the surface as smooth and logical as it is evil in its implications and in the fallacious way in which things are twisted into exactly such a shape as to guarantee maximum outrage from the muslim world. the hairsplitting is as obviously brutal as it is subtle. of course, the pope could have cited from many christian sources commenting upon islam, but he chose to cite exactly the one which would gratuitiously provoke the most - and this selection betrays determination and deliberation towards bringing about evil for as many people as possible. a ponerogenic act as they come.



the speech in english is here:
http://tinyurl.com/j7uuh

for the german version, just put "ge" instead of "en" at the end of the URL.

 

[artichoke]

as outrageous this is, we should not judge the pope and his actions in moral categories, nor should we do that with anything coming from either the catholic church nor from any other religious group. right now, the catholic church wants blood, and blood by the bucket they will get. judging from the reactions elicited until now, the speech was a full success.

the speech is a masterpiece in the art of destructive rhetoric. it is on the surface as smooth and logical as it is evil in its implications and in the fallacious way in which things are twisted into exactly such a shape as to guarantee maximum outrage from the muslim world. the hairsplitting is as obviously brutal as it is subtle. of course, the pope could have cited from many christian sources commenting upon islam, but he chose to cite exactly the one which would gratuitiously provoke the most - and this selection betrays determination and deliberation towards bringing about evil for as many people as possible. a ponerogenic act as they come.



the speech in english is here:
http://tinyurl.com/j7uuh

for the german version, just put "ge" instead of "en" at the end of the URL.

I agree. He's blaming the Muslims for in idea that the Jews started or at least championed long before, i.e. total destruction as one can read many times in the Old Testament. See Douglas Reed's "Controversy of Zion", http://knud.eriksen.adr.dk/Controversybook/index.htm , for an excellent discussion of the OT emphasis on destruction, and thanks Laura for pointing us to that book. It really is merciless, the way Benedict needles this point home. He "covers" the pre-Christian period of history and the OT without noticing any of this. The speech is a masterpiece of rhetoric.

So I'll ask the question that has been asked of several recent Popes: "Is the Pope Jewish?"

 

[Pierre]

So I'll ask the question that has been asked of several recent Popes: "Is the Pope Jewish?"

I guess there's less difference between a poneropope and a ponerorabbi than between a (normal) religious leader and a ponero religious leader.

 

[knowledge_of_self]

An update on this story...
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/16092006/6/n-top-news-pope-sorry-remarks.html

Pope sorry for remarks
By Stephen Brown
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Benedict is sorry Muslims were offended by a speech that provoked fury in the Islamic world and led to calls for the leader of the Catholic church to apologize personally, the Vatican said on Saturday.

"The Holy Father is very sorry that some passages of his speech may have sounded offensive to the sensibilities of Muslim believers," Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone said in a statement.

Benedict's worst crisis since he was elected in April 2005 was sparked by a speech in his native Germany on Tuesday that appeared to endorse a Christian view, contested by most Muslims, that early Muslims spread their religion by violence.

The backlash has cast doubt on a planned visit to Turkey by the Pope in November. In an early reaction to the Vatican statement, Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood said it was not enough and they wanted "a personal apology."

"We feel he has committed a grave error against us and that this mistake will only be removed through a personal apology," the Brotherhood's deputy leader, Mohammed Habib, told Reuters.

The Pope's next scheduled public appearance is his Sunday Angelus blessing, when he often comments on current affairs.

Bertone, walking into the crisis only a day after taking over as "deputy pope," said the 79-year-old Pope confirmed "his respect and esteem for those who profess the Islamic faith" and hoped his words would be understood "in their true sense."

The academic speech was meant as a "a clear and radical rejection of religiously motivated violence, wherever it comes from,"said the statement, which came as criticism of the leader of the world's 1.1 billion Roman Catholics swelled.

Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan of Muslim Turkey said on Saturday before the Vatican statement that the Pope's comments were "ugly and unfortunate" and should be withdrawn.

"The Pope spoke like a politician rather than as a man of religion," Erdogan said in televised remarks.

Yemen's president publicly denounced the pontiff and five churches -- only one of them Catholic -- were attacked in the West Bank, although no one was hurt. Egypt's foreign ministry summoned the Vatican envoy to Cairo to express "extreme regret" at Benedict's speech.

But Chancellor Angela Merkel and other German politicians defended his comments, saying he had been misunderstood.

"It was an invitation to dialogue between religions," she told the mass-circulation Bild newspaper in an interview.

CALLS FOR APOLOGY

The New York Times said in an editorial the Pope must issue a "deep and persuasive" apology for quotes used in his speech.

"The world listens carefully to the words of any pope. And it is tragic and dangerous when one sows pain, either deliberately or carelessly," it said.

In the speech, the Pope referred to criticism of the Prophet Mohammad by 14th century Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus, who said everything Mohammad brought was evil "such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

Using the terms "jihad" and "holy war," the Pope said violence was "incompatible with the nature of God."

But Bertone said the Pontiff "had absolutely no intention" of presenting Emperor Manuel's opinions on Islam as his own.

Vatican insiders and diplomats say the Pope may have mixed up his new role with his former posts as a theologian and head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, when as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger he was known as a disciplinarian.

Angry Muslim leaders flung what they saw as allegations of violence back at the Christian West.

"How can (the Pope) imply that Muslims are the creators of terrorism in the world while it is the followers of Christianity who have aggressed against every country of the Islamic world?" prominent Saudi cleric Salman al-Odeh said. "Who attacked Afghanistan and who invaded Iraq?"

In Libya, the General Instance of Religious Affairs said the "insult ... pushes us back to the era of crusades against Muslims led by Western political and religious leaders."

Turkish paper Vatan quoted a member of the ruling Justice and Development Party saying Benedict "will go down in history in the same category as leaders like Hitler and Mussolini."

Catholic bishops in Turkey feared the angry local reaction, led by the Grand Mufti, could show public opinion was shifting against the Pope's planned visit. But Turkish officials said they hoped the row would blow over and the visit would go ahead.

In Iraq the government asked Muslims not to take their anger out on the small Christian minority, after the door of a church in Basra was attacked. The foreign ministry summoned the Vatican's top diplomat there to explain the Pope's remarks.

I am also once again disgusted at our world, and the approach of once again someone with highly psychopathic traits as the leader in high place of power- The Pope of the Catholic Church.

My initial thought when I heard this news was drawn to history, and the massacres carried out by the Roman Catholic Crusaders in the name of God, and of course the Catholic Missionaries who brought "civilization" to the Aboriginals of the West with violence and forceful acceptance.

Of course we are told that his statement was meant to be

a clear and radical rejection of religiously motivated violence, wherever it comes from

to which I ask, than why did the Pope fail to mention or even direct any attention to the years of history in which Catholics were murdering innocents in the name of God??

Imo, the Pope said what he said and meant it-he is a psychopath, and his apology doesn't mean squat.

Nina

 

[Art]

But Chancellor Angela Merkel and other German politicians defended his comments, saying he had been misunderstood.

Well...

Hey, I know who is to give Benedictus his medal: SOTT of course! Yeah!

How? Well, by printing his lovely face on the next edition of Ponerology, as a memorial for his brilliant contributions to the cause against humanity!

Actually.... I see future editions of Ponerology presenting dozens of faces and, inside the book, the list of the names of this faces to id them, along a brief description of their "memorable moments" thanks to the which they rightfully figure on the book's face, ilustrating the point.

 

[CarpeDiem]

According to Malachy's propecies (http://www.catholic-pages.com/grabbag/malachy.asp), Benedictus XVI is "Gloria Olivae" (glory of the olives).

Olive - symbol of the Golden age and immortality, olive tree is the emblem of the Moon. Olive tree, and also grape vine or palm are considered as representations of tree of life. The olympic games represented the ritual process of obtaining the tree of life, the crown of olives worn by the victor at the Heraea identified the victorious virgin with Hera and the Moon, and the crown of wild olives for the victor of the Olympics represented Zeus, the two together symbolized the sacred marriage between Zeus (Ziu) and Hera, Sun and Moon. The token that Odysseus uses to identify himself to his wife, Penelope, is their marriage bed, which is carved from a great olive tree still rooted in the ground.
Olive oil was not only used in the Old Testament for the ritual anointing of priests and kings, but was also used in the New Testament for anointing the sick for God's blessing. (Ex. 30:23-33; James 5:14-15.) The name Christ (Greek) or Messiah (Hebrew) also means "the anointed one," and anointing for divine kingship or for God's blessing is especially significant for Jesus. "I am like a green olive tree in the House of God; I trust in the love of God for ever and ever" ( Psalms 52:10). The olive tree is Paul's symbol of eternal life for the Saints (Rom. 11: 16-27)
Didn't words of Gloria Olivae symbolize provocation of murder of sacred marriage between Sun and Moon?
Iranian daily Jomhuri (or Jomhouri) Islami commented Ratzinger speech in Germany in article "Israeli-US Plot Behind Pope's Remarks" : "There are many signs that show that Pope Benedict XVI's remarks regarding the great prophet of Islam are a link in a connected chain of a Zionist-American project," it said. "The project, which was created and executed by the Zionist minority, aims at creating confrontation between the followers of the two great divine religions."
http://www.aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=1&id=6407

17/09/2006
TEHRAN (AFP) - Iranian hardline newspapers said there were signs of an Israeli-US plot behind remarks by Pope Benedict XVI that linked Islam to violence and created a wave of anger across the Muslim world. The daily Jomhuri Islami said Israel and the United States -- the Islamic republic's two arch-enemies -- could have dictated the comments to distract attention from the resistance of the Shiite militant group Hezbollah to Israel's offensive on Lebanon. "The reality is that if we do not consider Pope Benedict XVI to be ignorant of Islam, then his remarks against Islam are a dictat that the Zionists and the Americans have written (for him) and have submitted to him." "The American and the Zionist aim is to undermine the glorious triumph of Islam's children of Lebanese Hezbollah, which annulled the undefeatable legend of the Israeli army and foiled the Satanic and colonialist American plot," it said.
Fellow hardline daily Kayhan, whose editor-in-chief is appointed by supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, said there were signs of Israeli inteference aimed at creating conflict between Islam and Christianity. "There are many signs that show that Pope Benedict XVI's remarks regarding the great prophet of Islam are a link in a connected chain of a Zionist-American project," it said. "The project, which was created and executed by the Zionist minority, aims at creating confrontation between the followers of the two great divine religions."
In a speech in his native Germany on Tuesday, the pope spoke of a link between Islam and jihad, or "holy war", and quoted a 14th-century Byzantine emperor who said innovations introduced by the Prophet Mohammed were "evil and inhuman". The pope on Saturday apologised for causing any offence to Muslims but did not retract his remarks, arguing they had been misinterpreted.

 

[Renaissance]

as outrageous this is, we should not judge the pope and his actions in moral categories, nor should we do that with anything coming from either the catholic church nor from any other religious group. right now, the catholic church wants blood, and blood by the bucket they will get. judging from the reactions elicited until now, the speech was a full success.

Why should we not judge his actions in moral categories? It seems like there's some association with discernment and spilling blood here, which seems to be conversive thinking, imo. Why not be outraged? This diseased man is leading millions of people into a hatred that allows the blood of innocents to flood the banks of the Middle East and soon the whole of the world. If we don't acknowledge and address the immorality of this driving force of destruction then what does that say of our own morality?

 

[name]

Why should we not judge his actions in moral categories? ...

Mental health. Do not let his filth suck you in. It has nothing to do with morality as you or I understand it.

Read the Ponerology book.

 

[Renaissance]

Mental health. Do not let his filth suck you in.

Moral outrage toward what this 'person' represents is not being sucked in by his filth, nor is it damaging toward our mental health. It is a normal response to seeing inhumanity in action. It would be abnormal however, if we allow that energy to be utilized by ponergenic programing. This is complex though, because first we have to observe ourselves as we are - which is in an abnormal state. If we repress our programing and reactions, we will not have the opportunity to see and debug our false selves.

So this 'don't react' can be a program in itself, and when combined with the 'don't be angry' program, this can be seen, imo, to have it's origins in psychopathic influence.

It appears that you may associate normal negative emotions as unhealthy. It depends on their use. They can be harmful but they can also be very helpful.

It has nothing to do with morality as you or I understand it.

When you say 'It,' I'm unclear as to what you mean. If you mean this issue of the Pope basically saying that Muslims are less than human, then it does have quite a lot to do morality. We have an instance of a paramoralism, which involves appealing to the morality of normal people and twisting their perceptions. It also exemplifies the psychopathic manuever of accusing the victim of exactly what the psychopath stands for. So, it is entirely proper to take this moral category and apply it to the Pope's behavior. It's a perfect fit!