Black Hawk military helicopter collides into American Airlines flight landing at Reagan Airport in Washington, DC

[Beau]

The New York Times' take on the D.C. air disaster may reveal something overlooked.

Nothing new in the video that I could see. What is it that you think they revealed?

 

[Niall]

Killary's weighed in. Sez it's Trump's fault. Helps me lean further towards malicious conspiracy.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1887522604245712993

 

[Ruth]

What I don't understand is why footage of the the DC crash seems to be combined with the Philadephia crash? Why? Sloppy journalism?

 

[mkrnhr]

Something still bothers me about this collision. Yes, the plane's pilots couldn't see the helicopter because the plane was turning to the left, and the helicopter was coming from the right. Yes the pilots of the helicopter, if they were on collision course with the plane, they would see a stationary flashing light in their field of view (it's like when someone pass you a ball, you run so that it appears to be stationary in the sky to intercept it). However, a military helicopter should have sensors, including radars, for approaching objects like missiles and birds. It doesn't look like an exotic technology and I'd imagine it's a prerequisite for a vehicle supposed to protect government VIPs in case of an emergency/attack. Disabled?

 

[Beau]

Yes, the plane's pilots couldn't see the helicopter because the plane was turning to the left, and the helicopter was coming from the right.

The pilots saw the heli at the last second. They pulled up but it was too late.

However, a military helicopter should have sensors, including radars, for approaching objects like missiles and birds. It doesn't look like an exotic technology and I'd imagine it's a prerequisite for a vehicle supposed to protect government VIPs in case of an emergency/attack. Disabled?

Probably. NTSB told press that the ADSB was disabled in the heli, but that appears to be DOD standard (which is crazy for training missions). I've thought similarly as you, if the heli was on remote, wouldn't the crew see and say something to ATC? The last communication between them was like 30 seconds before impact, confirming visual.

 

[Joe]

Yes, the plane's pilots couldn't see the helicopter because the plane was turning to the left, and the helicopter was coming from the right.

The UH-60 had very good visibility from the cockpit. They were not wearing night vision goggles, and the plane had been coming straight at them for more than 6 miles, during which time they had it in their sights, with full landing lights, including blinking wing tip lights. The jet turned to the left to land on runway 33 in the last 10 seconds of the event. The UH-60 was flying mostly straight at that point.

At no time would the UH-60 have not seen the plane. Instead, in the last 20 seconds or so, the UH-60 maneuvered in height and latitude, well off their normal route and 100+ft higher than every other helicopter flying that route, of which there had been, literally, hundreds in the previous few days. The result of that maneuver was that it directly hit the plane. As for comms. they can easily be spoofed.

 

[Joe]

Could they be jammed, disabling their comm to reach anybody?

Spoofed, IMO.

 

[msasa79]

Spoofed, IMO.

You mean like somebody from 'outside' might have imitated the heli crew in comm with the ATC?

Edit:
That would be an interesting possibility.
And the original heli crew's comm, redirected? Or were they incapacitated in some way to prevent them from jumping out of the heli when they saw the collision was imminent?

 

[Joe]

You mean like somebody from 'outside' might have imitated the heli crew in comm with the ATC?

The same people flying it.

Edit:
That would be an interesting possibility.
And the original heli crew's comm, redirected? Or were they incapacitated in some way to prevent them from jumping out of the heli when they saw the collision was imminent?

It's one theory...

 

[msasa79]

The same people flying it.
...
It's one theory...

If they could take over the flying controls, guess "locking" the doors to prevent exiting would not be much harder thing to do.

 

[Beau]

At no time would the UH-60 have not seen it.

I think mkrnhr's talking about the pilots of the passenger jet.

 

[Joe]

I think mkrnhr's talking about the pilots of the passenger jet.

ok, right

 

[A Jay]

Here's a detail from a week ago that I haven't seen mentioned yet unless I missed it that I've seen reported in a few places:

Data recovered from the American Airlines plane and Army helicopter crash in DC revealed a key discrepancy in their altitude readings that may offer an explanation for the tragedy that left 67 dead.

The National Transportation Safety Board revealed that preliminary data from the Black Hawk helicopter and passenger jet showed conflicting readings about their altitudes at the time of the catastrophic collision.

Data from the passenger jet’s flight recorder showed its altitude as 325 feet, plus or minus 25 feet, when the crash happened Wednesday night. Data in the control tower, though, showed the Black Hawk helicopter at 200 feet at the time.

The 100-foot discrepancy is yet to be explained, but if the impact did occur at 325ft, the crash would have occurred well-above the maximum allowed altitude of 200ft for helicopters in the area.

Haven't seen any recent updates revealing why there was a discrepancy. Regardless of how they explain it, though, thinking about what the plot with the fewest exposure points would be shifts the weight of probabilities towards the systems of the heli being set up to crash naturally, i.e. without having to directly take it over.

Doesn't mean the heli wasn't externally controlled as spoofing the height could've been to keep the CRJ from being called off the landing attempt. Just not sure it was necessary.

The pilots saw the heli at the last second. They pulled up but it was too late.

Probably. NTSB told press that the ADSB was disabled in the heli, but that appears to be DOD standard (which is crazy for training missions). I've thought similarly as you, if the heli was on remote, wouldn't the crew see and say something to ATC? The last communication between them was like 30 seconds before impact, confirming visual.

I couldn't find any officials stating it was standard operating procedure for a training mission. All I found was Ted Cruz saying there was no reason the ADS-B should've been turned off after he was briefed on the situation by the FAA and NTSB and I agree with him after looking at the FAA report with the guideline where it states that turning the ADS-B off is allowed only "for sensitive operations conducted by Federal, State and local government entities in matters of national defense, homeland security, intelligence and law enforcement."

A routine certification mission along known and published flight routes in the middle of downtown DC hardly seems to me like a sensitive operation but I don't know what the military considers sensitive so I could just be ignorant. Do you have links for this?

 

[Ca.]

Nothing new in the video that I could see. What is it that you think they revealed?

I am not sure, but sometimes, a clue can be subtle. Thanks for your observation.

 

[Beau]

Do you have links for this?

See comments here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ADSB/comments/1ijfwm3/army_helicopters_tracking_technology_turned_off

And a letter complaining about ADSB being turned off as a matter of policy from a congresswoman to the heads of DoD, DHS, FAA and the NPS:

http://docs.copterspotter.com/NortonLettertoDeptsHelicoptertransponders.pdf

And from this website focused on aviation news:

In 2019, the FAA issued a rule that allows the military broad discretion on when they disable ADS-B Out. They make considerable use of that discretion according to plane spotters who report that military aircraft often fail to be depicted on any of the major ADS-B tracking websites.