BY, FOR, AND OF PSYKOPATHS

AM said:
It's been ages since I've checked this site. My apologies for the delay in response. The terms "sociopath" and "psychopath" are used interchangeably and taught as such in undergraduate Sociology and Psychology curriculum. If this ought not be the case, please take it up with college administrators and department heads. I'm going on what the authors of my textbooks explained.

Has it ever crossed your mind that the authors of your textbooks might be wrong, intentionally or by ignorance? Or that those using the word sociopath and psychopath in an interchangeable way might have an interest in doing so, so as to muddle the issue?

I am familiar with Dr. Hare's book Without A Conscience and intend to reread it eventually. And I do take the subject of psychopathy/sociopathy (call it what you want)

It's not about "calling it what you want". There is a major difference between the definitions of psychopathy and sociopathy. You might want to make your own research about it.
A number of threads on the forum address the issue, like this one for example.
 
AM, every researcher of psychopathy calls it psychopathy. You will not find even one expert that calls it anything different. It's the official terminology, developed by Hervey Cleckley and Robert Hare. If you read their books you'll see that's the only word they use for the phenomenon. Your textbooks and professors are simply wrong.
 
AM said:
You lost me at Phil Donahue and Ralph Nader. :rolleyes:

Yeah, he lost me there, too. But he had so much else right that I was intrigued by this "find."


AM said:
There's a difference between sociopaths and narcissists that the original article completely omits. And just because someone is a serial "wedder" (or whatever you call someone with 8 ex-wives) doesn't necessarily mean they lack a conscience and/or are manipulative predators. Some people have consciences that for whatever reason they choose not to follow at certain times or when in specific roles where they're allowed by others to misbehave and act a fool.


Yes, there is a difference between narcissists and sociopaths and a lot of other differences that this article did not get technical about. There is also a difference between sociopaths and psychopaths. And sure, a person with 8 wives is not necessarily any of those, but could be something else altogether. But, as I said, the author put some startling things together in a way that is similar to the work of Lobaczewski and that is what caught my attention.



AM said:
No, I don't consider this article convincing.

The article is not here because it is "convincing", but to be considered in a wider field of research.


AM said:
As a product of a narcissist parent and as someone who unfortunately attracts predator types (narcissists and two bona-fide sociopaths that I'm aware of - yeah, I quit dating), I caution people against giving them as much credit as the original poster obviously does. They're not necessarily "superhumans" in terms of intellect and savviness. Sure, they're slick usually, but most IME don't seem to realize they are in fact the ones with the problem. They blame the rest of society for being weak and easily led, yet seem to have this mental block up to where they can't see themselves for the predator that they really are, except perhaps in the heat of the moment of preying on another. But then even after that, they rationalize it, justify it and then dismiss it as something that had to be done that was brought upon that person due their own poor choices.

Hmmm... you "quit dating". You also put "them" down as being inept, yet they managed to induce you to quit dating. You have had numerous interactions, and yet you claim that THEY have the "mental block." Are you rationalizing and justifying the fact that you aren't figuring something out to protect yourself, that you repeat the same mistakes again and again, to the point that you have withdrawn and are now dismissing the topic as important even though it appears to have had a profound influence on your life and social behaviors.


AM said:
I'm certainly not contesting how dangerous and destructive these people can be, but I can't help but cringe when folks toss the term "psychopath" around haphazardly, applying it with reckless abandon to any individual (especially if they're affiliated with politics) that leads what might be considered by some to be a suspect or immoral life. Cruelty, viciousness and callousness are not human traits and behaviors restricted to psychopaths.

No, cruelty, viciousness and callousness are not restricted to psychopaths, but a lot can be said for the fact that psychopaths in power, in positions of authority, in academia, particularly, can influence society in ways that make normal people believe that these qualities come from inside themselves when they are, in fact, a result of ponerization.

Consider Phil Zimbardo's Prison Experiment. In this study - and one or two others that are similar - a lot of focus was placed on the fact that individuals "took orders" and became vicious and callous. What nobody seemed to be focusing on was the role of the individuals giving the orders - the authorities.

In the case of the experiment, the "authorities" were not psychopaths (at least we hope not), but were rather playing a role in order to test an outcome. But in the case of real pathological individuals, it is not a role and has the same effect on "followers."

This leads, of course, to consideration of the "Right Wing Authoritarian" personality type. These are individuals who seek and need a "leader" and need things to be "black and white" and must follow some rigid code because there is really not much inside them - no will of their own.

That then leads to the consideration of a recent article we carried on sott about Endoskeletons and Exoskeletons. It's so good, I'm going to reproduce it here:

Moral Endo-skeletons and Exo-skeletons: A Perspective on America's Cultural Divide and Current Crisis

Andrew Bard Schmookler
nonesoblind.org
Tue, 29 Jul 2008

Last week, in the posting in which I asked the NSB community for aid (see "The Wind Up, and Here's the Pitch"), I closed by saying,

In the days to come, as a reminder of what NSB has contributed to the effort to address this national crisis, I will be posting some of the major statements from me that have appeared here over these several years.

Here is the second such article: a piece that explores the psychology of different "moral structures" that tend to correspond with our political and cultural divides. "Moral Endo-skeletons and Exo-skeletons" appeared here first more than two years ago. It was also published subsequently in the journal, THE HUMANIST.

In the months after the 2004 election, when the Red States were said to have voted on the basis of their "moral values," it was noted by many observers that the sleazy TV and movies the traditionalist and Christian right denounce so energetically also tend to get their highest ratings in the same parts of the country most populated by such people. (It was noted, as well, that some of the family pathologies that traditionalists decry are found at high rates among these most vocal proponents of "family values.")

Some took this as a clear indication of the hypocrisy of the conservatives: what they denounce, they also secretly enjoy. They are not as concerned about morality, this critique declared, as they pretend to be. A posture of devotion to righteousness, all the while indulging forbidden impulses in hidden ways.

Jimmy Swaggart writ large.

But I don't think "hypocrisy" is the most illuminating way of seeing this phenomenon. Not if hypocrisy is understood as a form of deliberate dishonesty.

Different Structures of Morality


From my discussions of morality with religious traditionalists, I've gleaned that many of them assume that people who do not believe in their firm moral structures - who do not believe in God, or in the Ten Commandments, or in inviolable and absolute rules of moral conduct - must be living lives of sin and debauchery. They cannot understand - and often seem unwilling even to believe - that people like Unitarians might be living the well-ordered lives - as hard-working and law-abiding citizens, as responsible and dedicated family people - that they themselves strive to do.


Comment: Lobaczewski writes in Ponerology, on the subject of schizoid personalities:

Their poor sense of psychological situation and reality leads them to superimpose erroneous, pejorative interpretations upon other people's intentions. They easily become involved in activities which are ostensibly moral, but which actually inflict damage upon themselves and others. Their impoverished psychological worldview makes them typically pessimistic regarding human nature. We frequently find expressions of their characteristic attitudes in their statements and writings: "Human nature is so bad that order in human society can only be maintained by a strong power created by highly qualified individuals in the name of some higher idea." Let us call this typical expression the "schizoid declaration". Human nature does in fact tend to be naughty, especially when the schizoids embitter other people's lives.



Their failure to understand how non-believing "liberals" can live moral lives is actually the reverse side of the same coin from the liberals' imputation of hypocrisy to the red staters who watch "Desperate Housewives" and may also have disordered family lives.

And these misunderstandings derive from the two groups' having different moral structures.

Differences in the Locus of Control


It was a student of mine (in an adult education class about "America's Moral Crisis") who came up with the apt image. It didn't matter much to her, she said, whether her society has a lot of enforced rules. She's got her moral beliefs firmly inside her - a kind of endo-skeleton, she said.

We had been talking about the distress American traditionalists have felt at the erosion of a social consensus about the straight-and-narrow path. Morality for them, she said, seemed to be a kind of exo-skeleton. This was her image to capture their reliance on external moral structures - laws, punishments, etc. - to keep them within the moral confines in which they believe.

Comment: Kazimierz Dabrowski, a contemporary of Lobaczewski, described this moral "endo-skeleton" as an "authentic hierarchy of values". By this, he meant a system of values that is self-chosen, determined by higher emotions of empathy and an inner sense of moral conviction. This contrasts with a moral "exo-skeleton", which has its source in an externally-imposed system of values. This environmental influence was called "second factor" by Dabrowski to differentiate it from biological endowment (first factor).

Dabrowski proposed that the majority of people existed at a low level of emotional development, what he called "primary integration" or "level I" in his system, or at the borderline between level I and level II (unilevel disintegration). Individuals at these levels do not have the capacity for an authentic moral endo-skeleton. Their lives are ruled almost exclusively by the first and second factors. An authentic hierarchy of values can only exist with the influence of the autonomous third factor.


In that perspective, some of what might seem anomalies - or hypocrisies - of some traditionalists makes greater sense.

It becomes clear why such people - with intense moral concerns combined with a reliance on external moral structures to keep one's own forbidden impulses in check - would support a state that enforces moral rules and a social culture that stigmatizes those who violate those rules. It really is a threat to them - a threat to their own inner moral order - when the society around them fails to be clear in its rules and strict in its enforcement.

Comment: Individuals at level I/II do not have a mental "structure" as Dabrowski put it. They must rely on the external environment for that structure. To take that structure away away is to threaten their own perceived security and mental well-being. Without it, there is chaos with no clear "way out".

Interestingly, Lobaczewski describes schizoids and paranoids as being capable of limited (i.e. unilevel) disintegration of their personalities. It is these individuals who are active in the earliest stages of ponerogenesis. They create strict authoritarian moral and political doctrines, which are adopted by individuals incapable of discerning their pathological nature.

A typical example of such a schizoidal declaration is found in the philosophy of Thomas Hobbes, which incidentally forms the backbone of Western political philosophy:

"Hereby it is manifest, that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man... In such condition there is no place for industry, because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth, no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea, no commodious building, no instruments of moving and removing such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, short."


For one whose moral structure is cast in that exo-skeleton form, the absence of external moral authority seems necessarily to imply the outbreak of moral anarchy. That's the logic implied by that famous line, from a character in Dostoyevski's BROTHER'S KARAMAZOV, that "if there is no God, everything is permitted." That's what lies behind that fear that - if gays are allowed to marry - marriage generally would somehow be threatened, including the sanctity of one's own.

To the liberal, with the endoskeleton structure, both of those seem like logical non sequiturs. And logically, perhaps they are. But they bespeak a psychological reality. If the outside structure breaks down, who knows what I might do? It's like that writing in the mirror in the movie, "Stop me before I kill again."

Liberals have often failed to understand how genuinely threatening it is to the moral order of those with the exo-skeleton structure if there is a loosening of society's moral standards, rules, and sanctions. They have not appreciated the plight of people who deeply want to toe the line, and need help in doing it.

Likewise, many liberals have responded with anger, unleavened by understanding, to the tendency of some traditionalists to try to impose their moral views on others. It is their dependence on the strength and integrity of the external moral order that drives many "exo-skeletons" to crusade to make the whole world around them conform to the moral system to which they themselves are striving to adhere. The unspoken - and generally unacknowledged - need is: please, society, be morally strict enough to keep me on the straight-and-narrow path.

Integrity and Hypocrisy: The Challenge to the Exo-Skeletons


These fears of traditionalists reflect a lack of integration - the morality is not fully integrated into the psyche.

St. Paul lamented: "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." Truly, he wanted to do the good. But it is not entirely true that the evil he did was something he wanted not. For a part of him did want it, or he wouldn't have done it.

So was Paul a hypocrite for doing what he declared himself to be against? And are the red-staters hypocrites if they indulge - perhaps more even than the liberals - the forbidden desires?

Well, yes and no. Yes, in that they are not practicing what they preach. And that does represent a kind of lack of integrity. But the "dishonesty" involved is not about lying to others so much as it is a natural outgrowth of the identification with only a part of the self, the moral part, with a concomitant sense that the other part, with the forbidden desire, is the not-I.

So that is the hypocritical part: the failure to embrace the whole truth about the self - that is comprised not only of the "righteous" part but of the "sinner" part as well.

If the moral order of the society around him weakens, the person with a moral exo-skeleton is genuinely threatened - not just regarding his conduct, but also even regarding his identity.

Comment: This is an important dynamic considering the role of ideology in ponerogenesis. Individuals at level I (many of which are considered Right Wing Authoritarians) need an external morality, and they will hold onto one as if it were a part of their body.

The Dangerous Blindness of Some of Us Moral Endo-Skeletons

Those of us with the endo-skeleton structure - who can live moral and orderly lives even if we live in an "anything goes" society - can reasonably be tempted to feel superior to those others with the exo-skeleton dependency on the moral sanctions of a more straight-and-narrow society.

And indeed there are theories of moral development according to which the internalization of moral order is a more "advanced" form of moral development.

But, at this point in American history, it can be seen that the quest for advanced consciousness has many dimensions, and neither side of America's divide has aced the course. This is part of the cost of our cultural polarization - two forms of moral blindness, very different but also two sides of the same coin.

Just as the cultural right has damaged America because of its failure to acknowledge its inner sinner, the left has damaged America through its failure to recognize its inner moral structure.

This was one of the greatest shortcomings of the counterculture that arose in the 60s. We - and I was a member of that tribe - simply tore down a great many of our society's moral structures and assumed that all would be well. We had half-baked theories of human nature, and of society, that justified "letting it all hang out" and "doing our own thing" and "if it feels good, do it."

Comment: And as Dave McGowan has been showing in his Laurel Canyon series, some very pathocratic individuals and organizations were manipulating the whole "counterculture" movement from the beginning. In short, the moral center of America was ponerized and its action was thus neutralized.

History has shown that we were naive. Not all has been well. Indeed, I would argue that this naive miscalculation is part of what has led, ultimately, to the rise of the dark and destructive forces from the right embodied by the current dangerous Bushite regime.

Living Off Our Moral Capital

What many in the counterculture did, I believe, was to look at themselves - in their "liberated" state - and imagine that they saw human nature in its pristine state. But in reality, most of the middle class youth - brought up in the 1940s and 1950s - who comprised the counterculture had already internalized a great many of the disciplines - moral and otherwise - of traditional American culture.

That's why they could engage in the cultural revolution of liberation, and then go on to become effective middle class professionals, and the kind of liberals with well-ordered lives that I meet when I speak to Unitarian groups.

The loosening of the moral structures of American society did not, indeed, greatly disturb the lives of most of us middle class American youths of the counterculture, because the necessary structures were already inside us. Our endo-skeletons made the social enforcement of norms and standards and morals unnecessary.

For us, that is. Meanwhile, the rest of society was not identical to us endo-skeletons. And there, the costs of the cultural loosening have been more visible.

For one thing, there are elements of American society in which the disciplines of moral order were less firmly established than in the white middle class. And for them, the loosening of the moral fabric of the overall cultural system led to disastrous results, such as a steep increase in the rate of illegitimate births and a general deterioration of family structure.

(This picture is painted plausibly in Myron Magnet's THE DREAM AND THE NIGHTMARE: THE SIXTIES' LEGACY TO THE UNDERCLASS. I continue to believe that there was much that was valid and right in the counterculture, whereas Magnet is basically a conservative counter-revolutionary; but I nonetheless think it is important to recognize the truth of valid critiques even - sometimes especially - from people who are in many ways adversaries.)

In addition to the effects of the loosening of our culture's moral structures on the underclass, there is also the impact that the dissipation of our culture's moral capital has had on our heirs, the young.

The youth coming up did not form their characters in the tighter environments of the 1940s and 1950s, but in the culturally looser decades since. And one has been hearing from veteran teachers for a long time now that each successive wave of students shows signs of a loosening of discipline of various kinds. The culture has grown trashier, the demands of society have become less stringent, the culture of indulgence has grown deeper - and all this has led to a visible cultural decline. Many of the children of those who carried with them the older structures have managed to raise children whose lives are also fairly well-ordered. But even there it is a diminishing cultural capital that we are living off of. And I expect that the necessary forms of moral structure (and other disciplines) will attenuate in time - in the absence of some kind of cultural renewal.

But it is on the other side of the cultural divide - in the realm of the endo-skeletons - that the loosening of the moral order has proved most dangerous.

It is not only that the cultural right, more dependent on the external restraints, becomes more likely to succumb to forbidden impulses - like sailors come to port.

More dangerous for the society is that the particular nature of the right's moral vision - its relative harshness and its punitiveness - transforms the impulses of the human animal into something darker.

Comment: The adoption of a system of pseudo-morality (e.g. various systems of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hobbesian political philosophy, Machiavellianism, Strauss' political theory, etc.) acts as a pathological influence on individuals at a low level of emotional development, causing them to behave on a lower level than they would under the influence of a real moral system. As such, their suggestibility to authority gives rise to atrocities that characterize pathocracy in its early stages.

Fragile orders tend also to be harsher - tyranny as the surest means to avoid anarchy. And, accordingly, a moral order that is less internalized, being more fragile, tends also toward harshness.

Thus the morality of the exo-skeletons tends to denigrate the human nature it seeks to control. This morality also tends to be more punitive in its approach to control - glad to invest big sums in a brutal prison system (whether or not such punishments actually serve society best, as with drug offenders), passionately committed to the death penalty, and building its worldview around a highly punitive figure as Lord of the Universe.

(Think here of that major cultural phenomenon of recent years - the controversy over Mel Gibson's THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST.)

And the harsher the morality - the more the interaction between cultural demand and human nature is conducted in the form of of war - the darker become the feelings inside the human creature socialized in that morality - the more the feelings inside the human creature turn toward rage (at the wounds inflicted), toward a desire for power (to counteract the powerlessness of being small in a world that has declared war on you), and toward a lust for vengeance (for all the punishment and rejection inflicted).

The harsh morality of the cultural right thus engenders within the human spirit a kind of wolf . It is a wolf such as Shakespeare described in Troilus and Cressida:

Then every thing includes itself in power,
Power into will, will into appetite;
And appetite, an universal wolf,
So doubly seconded with will and power,
Must make perforce an universal prey,
And last eat up himself.

And the same harsh morality that goads this wolf into life will also - when it is intact - help confine that beast its cage.

That wolf - the lust for power and the rage for revenge - has always been there, and it has played a role in the dark parts of American history. But it was largely, more than now, kept from running rampant.

The loosening of the cage of America's social morality had one meaning, therefore, among America's endo-skeletons, but another darker meaning among America's exo-skeletons. It is as though a boat was tipped by the left, but it was the right that got wet.

It was not just id that was loosed on the cultural right, but also unleashed were those impulses that their sub-culture's harshness had made dark. (One thinks of that famous passage in Carl Jung, written in the years before the rise of the Nazis, about the "blond beast stirring in its subterranean prison...threatening us with an outbreak that will have devastating consequences." )

The wolf has now broken from its cage. We in the counterculture who wanted to liberate, for example, the natural sexual energies of the human creature also, unwittingly, weakened the checks on the lust for power, on greed, on self-aggrandisement. Morality, it turns out, is of a piece. And so is our culture.

"Make love, not war," we chanted. But now, being undisciplined in our approach to the moral issues of making love, we live in a country that defies all international laws in its making of war.

Now it is the wolf that rules America.

Turning Back from Fascism

Fascism arises from the sense that the choice is between its tyranny and mere anarchy.

Never mind that the fascists merely bring the anarchy of the enraged wolf, hiding under the national flag, to prowl around society. They do it from the precincts of power, and they fool enough of the people into thinking that what they're bringing is order.

But there are, in any event, better options than either tyranny or anarchy. But they are to be achieved. Good order in the human realm does not happen except through wise and hard human effort.

The task then is two-fold. It is not only to remove that wolf from power, but it is also to help reconstruct the cage - those structures of morality - that kept it in check.

Ideally, we'd do much better than merely "reconstruct" the moral cage of an earlier era. That would be an improvement over this loosening, which has unleashed these dark forces. But still better would be to find a better means of containment, even a more harmonious form of domestication that does not need to abuse the creature it brings into the social fold. That old order was far from ideal.

That much the counter-culture recognized, but it failed to realize that a truly beneficent revolution is not accomplished by the storming of the Bastille. And it failed to recognize that the movement of a culture to its next, more advanced form is a long-term and difficult process.

What is needed this time around is not a wanton rejection of the old structures, replacing them with nothing. We endo-skeletons must understand more fully the structures that hold us together. We must understand, that is, that the endo-skeleton is not nothing.

And, more, we need to understand that the endo-skeleton does not come from nothing. It is the internalization of the order the growing creature encounters around him/her.

And no skeleton at all is a recipe for falling apart.

The world is not black and white, and the article that is the topic of this thread is not perfect.

I would hope that you would engage to learn and then, perhaps, you would have the tools that would enable you to return to social interactions with knowledge and safety.
 
Since the posting ban has been lifted, I'll respond quickly before heading off to work a while.

Laura said:
Hmmm... you "quit dating". You also put "them" down as being inept, yet they managed to induce you to quit dating. You have had numerous interactions, and yet you claim that THEY have the "mental block." Are you rationalizing and justifying the fact that you aren't figuring something out to protect yourself, that you repeat the same mistakes again and again, to the point that you have withdrawn and are now dismissing the topic as important even though it appears to have had a profound influence on your life and social behaviors.

Suppose I should qualify that a bit. I haven't completely quit dating to where I'm a shut-in terrified by my past experiences, but it did shake me up for a couple years there. To be honest, that one particular ex-boyfriend is the only person I've ever known who's actually been diagnosed as psychopathic (through Boystown where he was raised); the other man I mentioned wasn't a boyfriend but a weirdo met through friends and luckily I did get away from that situation pretty early on (not speaking generically here either -- that guy's bestfriend was sentenced to prison for the murder of the man's wife and baby in Kansas and last I knew the case was being reopened because evidence did point to his involvement). Anyway, I shouldn't have brought any of it up here...was just thinking out loud as I tend to do. Not sure what my mother qualifies as but counselors have suggested the narcissism label; I don't personally know either way. The point is that I do have some experiential knowledge of living with a conscience-less individual, and it proved quite traumatic, but later taught me a great deal. And in today's dating scene, it's a jungle, so I generally prefer to opt out. Didn't mean to string this all together to give the impression that I have a habit of gravitating toward dangerous people -- that doesn't appear to be the case.

To answer your questions, Laura...after being hurt like that, it seems only natural to withdraw for a while (maybe even a long while) and take stock of the situation, with the aim being to never endure something like that again. But it was a strange situation, not a committed, romantic relationship, and there were lots of variables not specifically pertaining to him that left their mark as well. Do I try to rationalize it? Not sure what you mean here. I try to understand what happened, but it wasn't 'til the end of the relationship before his family told me of his diagnosis or filled me in on the shocking details. Knowing them sooner, I would have left the man early on. It was evident that he seriously was hampered emotionally, though he seemed content, in decent spirits much of the time --- just couldn't empathize with people at all, not his children, not his employers who he stole from, not his family. But he played a good game and put forth a friendly persona. Cried crocodile tears when necessary. Lived parasitically off of women, sometimes multiple women, for 16 years by that time, and left me to pursue another one (thankfully since I couldn't seem to get rid of the joker).

I'm not dismissing the condition in question as unimportant, only the semantics relating to it since terminology and what it applies to has changed so much over the last century. The actual affliction itself is very interesting and, agreed, important. The guy I dated was very successful at his way of life, and I can absolutely see how that 'charm' helps psychopaths move about undetected or strive for upward mobility on the backs of others. It's a topic I give a great deal of thought to and have read some of Dr. Hare's teachings on the matter. That my education didn't suffice in explaining the condition in depth isn't surprising since I was not a student of psychology. I do take issue with a great deal of modern psychology's assertions and claims, but the subject of psychopathy tends to bring me back to reading what literature does exist on the topic, which I hope to do more of in time.

Laura said:
This leads, of course, to consideration of the "Right Wing Authoritarian" personality type. These are individuals who seek and need a "leader" and need things to be "black and white" and must follow some rigid code because there is really not much inside them - no will of their own.

That then leads to the consideration of a recent article we carried on sott about Endoskeletons and Exoskeletons. It's so good, I'm going to reproduce it here:


Thanks for the article clippings and info. I intend to read them in full as soon as I get back in from errands.

AM
 
AM said:
Suppose I should qualify that a bit. I haven't completely quit dating to where I'm a shut-in terrified by my past experiences, but it did shake me up for a couple years there. To be honest, that one particular ex-boyfriend is the only person I've ever known who's actually been diagnosed as psychopathic (through Boystown where he was raised); the other man I mentioned wasn't a boyfriend but a weirdo met through friends and luckily I did get away from that situation pretty early on (not speaking generically here either -- that guy's bestfriend was sentenced to prison for the murder of the man's wife and baby in Kansas and last I knew the case was being reopened because evidence did point to his involvement). Anyway, I shouldn't have brought any of it up here...was just thinking out loud as I tend to do. Not sure what my mother qualifies as but counselors have suggested the narcissism label; I don't personally know either way. The point is that I do have some experiential knowledge of living with a conscience-less individual, and it proved quite traumatic, but later taught me a great deal. And in today's dating scene, it's a jungle, so I generally prefer to opt out. Didn't mean to string this all together to give the impression that I have a habit of gravitating toward dangerous people -- that doesn't appear to be the case.

To answer your questions, Laura...after being hurt like that, it seems only natural to withdraw for a while (maybe even a long while) and take stock of the situation, with the aim being to never endure something like that again. But it was a strange situation, not a committed, romantic relationship, and there were lots of variables not specifically pertaining to him that left their mark as well. Do I try to rationalize it? Not sure what you mean here. I try to understand what happened, but it wasn't 'til the end of the relationship before his family told me of his diagnosis or filled me in on the shocking details. Knowing them sooner, I would have left the man early on. It was evident that he seriously was hampered emotionally, though he seemed content, in decent spirits much of the time --- just couldn't empathize with people at all, not his children, not his employers who he stole from, not his family. But he played a good game and put forth a friendly persona. Cried crocodile tears when necessary. Lived parasitically off of women, sometimes multiple women, for 16 years by that time, and left me to pursue another one (thankfully since I couldn't seem to get rid of the joker).

I'm not dismissing the condition in question as unimportant, only the semantics relating to it since terminology and what it applies to has changed so much over the last century. The actual affliction itself is very interesting and, agreed, important. The guy I dated was very successful at his way of life, and I can absolutely see how that 'charm' helps psychopaths move about undetected or strive for upward mobility on the backs of others. It's a topic I give a great deal of thought to and have read some of Dr. Hare's teachings on the matter. That my education didn't suffice in explaining the condition in depth isn't surprising since I was not a student of psychology. I do take issue with a great deal of modern psychology's assertions and claims, but the subject of psychopathy tends to bring me back to reading what literature does exist on the topic, which I hope to do more of in time.

It is interesting to read in Hervey Cleckley's "Mask of Sanity" about the measures taken to deliberately muddy the waters regarding the diagnosis of psychopathy, the vocabulary used etc, and to lump it in along with a whole lot of other psychological disorders of a different nature - this concurs with Lobaczewski's account of how his university library was systematically stripped of any material on the subject - some heavy duty obfuscation going on, clearly. So, this is the background to some of the modern confusion. The work of Lobaczewski, Hare, Babiak etc means that we at last have a clearer picture (and Lobaczewski goes into some detail to classify the various types), and a common vocabulary to discuss these things.

AM, you might find it enlightening to read Sandra Brown's 'Women Who Love Psychopaths' which talks a lot about the nature of the manipulations used in pathological relationships, how often this becomes a repeating syndrome for the victim, because of some particular chink in the victim's psychological armour, which the psychopath is a always master at finding and exploiting. As always, the key to defending oneself from these attacks is to have knowledge of the underlying dynamics at play, and to be psychologically healthy as possible - to know oneself, one's weaknesses, and to take steps to heal them. Well, that may be a little vague, but the various discussions and literature cited on the forum here, goes a long way to fill in the details.
 
Laura said:

After reading a little ways in, I realized this is the same post I read a while back, perhaps directly on the nonesoblind site. Just finished rereading it, and I have a lot of thoughts to express about it, so I'll be dragging it back to my "cave" for dissemination. ;)

Thanks for the book recommendation, Nomad. While not so much afraid of attracting another 'crazy' since the stars were aligned for the last one, I'll look up info on it online. Never hurts to learn more about what predators are drawn to.

AM
 
Robert Hanssen, 79, a former FBI agent who admitted to spying for Moscow, has been found dead in prison.
He was discovered unresponsive at a maximum-security facility in Florence, Colorado, on Monday morning.

Hanssen, sentenced in 2002 to life in prison for espionage, had received more than $1.4m in cash, diamonds, and money paid into Russian accounts.

He was living at the time in a modest four-bedroom house in suburban Virginia with his wife and six children.

Hanssen, who became an FBI officer on 12 January 1976, is known as the most damaging spy in the bureau's history.

Because of his counterintelligence role, he had access to classified information and in 1985 he started his criminal activity, sending material to Russia and the former Soviet Union.

He used the alias "Ramon Garcia" when corresponding with them.

According to the FBI's website, he "compromised numerous human sources, counterintelligence techniques, investigations, dozens of classified US government documents, and technical operations of extraordinary importance and value".

After the spy Aldrich Hazen Ames was arrested by the FBI in 1994, the bureau realised classified information was still being leaked, which is what instigated the investigation into Hanssen.

He had been due to retire so the FBI acted quickly in an effort to catch him "red handed". Three hundred agents worked on the case
"What we wanted to do was get enough evidence to convict him, and the ultimate aim was to catch him in the act," said Debra Evans Smith, former deputy assistant director of the Counterintelligence Division.

To lure him back to FBI headquarters for closer monitoring, he was given a fake assignment.

Hanssen began working in his new office - complete with hidden cameras and microphones - at FBI headquarters in January 2001.
A month later, investigators learned he was scheduled to make a dead drop at a park.

A dead drop is when one person leaves material for another person to later pick up at a pre-determined location, according to the Central Intelligence Agency.
 

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Just to documente the case, from Robert Hanssen wikipedia's entry, note the link to Opus Dei wich is sort of the Roman Catholic church's CIA, as for the above poll, it might need more candidates?? :

"

Early life​

Robert Hanssen was born in Chicago, Illinois, to a Lutheran family who lived in the Norwood Park neighborhood.[10] He was of Norwegian descent. His father, Howard, a Chicago police officer, was allegedly emotionally abusive to Hanssen during his childhood.[3][11] Hanssen graduated from William Howard Taft High School in 1962 and attended Knox College in Galesburg, Illinois, where he earned a bachelor's degree in chemistry in 1966.

Hanssen applied for a cryptography job at the National Security Agency following his college graduation but was rebuffed due to budget setbacks. He enrolled in dental school at Northwestern University[12] but switched his focus to business after three years.[13] Hanssen received an MBA in accounting and information systems in 1971 and took a job with an accounting firm. He quit after one year and joined the Chicago Police Department as an internal affairs investigator, specializing in forensic accounting. In January 1976, Hanssen left the Chicago police to join the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI).[3]

Hanssen met Bernadette "Bonnie" Wauck, a staunch Roman Catholic, while attending dental school at Northwestern. The couple married in 1968, and Hanssen converted from Lutheranism to his wife's Catholicism. [14]

Personal life​

According to USA Today, those who knew the Hanssens described them as a close family. They attended Mass weekly and were very active in Opus Dei. Hanssen's three sons attended The Heights School in Potomac, Maryland, an all-boys preparatory school.[64] His three daughters attended Oakcrest School for Girls in Vienna, Virginia, an independent Roman Catholic school. Both schools are associated with Opus Dei. Hanssen's wife, Bonnie, retired from teaching theology at Oakcrest in 2020.[65]

A priest at Oakcrest said Hanssen had regularly attended a 6:30 a.m. daily Mass for over a decade.[66] Opus Dei member C. John McCloskey said he also occasionally attended the daily noontime Mass at the Catholic Information Center in downtown Washington DC. After being imprisoned, Hanssen claimed he periodically admitted his espionage to priests in confession. He urged fellow Catholics in the FBI to attend Mass more often and denounced the Russians as "godless", even though he had been spying for them.[67]

At Hanssen's suggestion, and without his wife's knowledge, a friend named Jack Hoschouer, a retired Army officer, would sometimes watch the Hanssens having sex through a bedroom window. Hanssen then began to videotape his sexual encounters secretly and shared the videotapes with Hoschouer. Later, he hid a video camera in the bedroom connected via a closed-circuit television line so that Hoschouer could observe the Hanssens from his guest bedroom.[68] He also explicitly described the sexual details of his marriage on Internet chat rooms, giving information sufficient for those who knew them to recognize the couple.[69]

Hanssen frequently visited D.C. strip clubs and spent a great deal of time with a Washington stripper named Priscilla Sue Galey. She went with Hanssen on visits to Hong Kong and the FBI training facility in Quantico, Virginia.[70] Hanssen gave her money, jewels, and a used Mercedes-Benz but ended contact with her before his arrest when she began abusing drugs and doing sex work. Galey claims that although she offered to have sex with him, Hanssen declined, saying he was trying to convert her to Catholicism.[71]"
 
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