Can Israelis & Palestinians live in peace?

Rhythmik

Jedi Master
Seems like both sides just want to kill each other and are not interested in compromise. The Israelis say they don't want to kill Palestinians but they do. The Palestinians say they do want to kill Israelis but they can't.
Is Israel just distrusting of the other's motives due to being attacked so many times in the past?
Is there a realistic solution?
 
Rhythmik said:
Seems like both sides just want to kill each other and are not interested in compromise. The Israelis say they don't want to kill Palestinians but they do. The Palestinians say they do want to kill Israelis but they can't.
Is Israel just distrusting of the other's motives due to being attacked so many times in the past?
Is there a realistic solution?

Better read this article and get up to speed:

The "Middle Ground" Fallacy in Gaza
 
Rhythmik said:
Seems like both sides just want to kill each other and are not interested in compromise. The Israelis say they don't want to kill Palestinians but they do. The Palestinians say they do want to kill Israelis but they can't.

Since in your analysis above it's clear who the liar is: "The Israelis say they don't want to kill Palestinians but they do", and since the narrative about Palestinians that "they want to kill Israelis but can't" comes from the Israelis mostly, we can come to a more objective conclusion than the one you formulated:

The Israelis want to kill Palestinians and they do, and Palestinians don't want to kill anyone, they just want to be free but Israel won't allow them.

In that case, there is no chance for Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace because the Israelis want the Palestinians dead or gone, which really means "dead" because Israel won't allow the Palestinians to leave.

I don't think you understand the situation well enough, probably because it is too shocking to contemplate, and you opt instead for the 'middle ground' explanation.

Israel plans on exterminating or otherwise ethnically cleaning ALL Palestinians, save those few who will submit and be good second class citizen slaves in Israel.

You might want to read this Sott Focus.

The "Middle Ground" Fallacy in Gaza
 
Rhythmik said:
Seems like both sides just want to kill each other and are not interested in compromise. The Israelis say they don't want to kill Palestinians but they do. The Palestinians say they do want to kill Israelis but they can't.
Is Israel just distrusting of the other's motives due to being attacked so many times in the past?
Is there a realistic solution?

Israel violate human rights and act immorally toward Palestinian even to the civilians. So, it is not surprising that this opening anger toward Israelis from Palestinian side. There is probably no solution until the psychopathic government will left, because this is connecting to violating human rights and luck of empathy. And then if Israeli government will left there will be next step to give more freedom to the Palestinian power and back to the appropriate borders approved by international law.

My 2 cents
 
I feel I do understand the situation (up to a reasonable point). I've studied the history (and propaganda) extensively and I read every SOTT article on the issue. I've also spent a lot of time in Israel, one half of family is Israeli, which makes it difficult to stay objective but I feel I do a decent job. (My family think I'm a Westernized, clueless, left-wing, idealistic liberal to give you some idea).

As per this middle ground article, I believe it's naive to think that Palestinians just want to be free and live in peace. I've seen and heard Palestinians wish death on Jews and Israelis and if you look at history, the Arab sides have attacked Israel multiple times. How does one explain that?

Nobody here really speaks up about how oppressive/racist/full of hatred the Arab/Muslim/Shariah regimes are. Is it true that Islam teaches that all non-believers are infidels? If Israel's army was weak is there any doubt that the Palestinians would attack and slaughter Israelis?

My personal realistic solution would be: Israel retreats to the pre-1967 borders, dismantles the illegal settlements, institutes a Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as the capital and refrains from attacking Palestinians.

Another thing, would we also consider Hamas a psychopathic government? Are there any non-psychopathic governments in the Middle East?
 
Rhythmik said:
As per this middle ground article, I believe it's naive to think that Palestinians just want to be free and live in peace. I've seen and heard Palestinians wish death on Jews and Israelis and if you look at history, the Arab sides have attacked Israel multiple times. How does one explain that?

Wishing death on people who have imprisoned you and stolen/occupied your land for 80 years and who regularly massacre your neighbors and family members is not surprising and certainly nothing to condemn anyone for.

Rhythmik said:
Nobody here really speaks up about how oppressive/racist/full of hatred the Arab/Muslim/Shariah regimes are.

We do, but they're usually the ones that are close friends with/propped up by the West and Israel. Saudi, Bahrain, Qatar...

Rhythmik said:
Is it true that Islam teaches that all non-believers are infidels?

No more than Christians teach that anyone who is not a Christian is going to hell.

Rhythmik said:
If Israel's army was weak is there any doubt that the Palestinians would attack and slaughter Israelis?

It's hard to tell. I doubt it. Although kicking them off stolen Arab land or, if they chose to stay, requiring that they live peaceably with the Arab population would be reasonable.

Rhythmik said:
My personal realistic solution would be: Israel retreats to the pre-1967 borders, dismantles the illegal settlements, institutes a Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as the capital and refrains from attacking Palestinians.

It's a testimony to the decency of Palestinians that they would be willing to accept that as a solution, given that they have fundamental rights to ALL of the land and Israel has none. But there isn't a snowball's chance in hell of the Zionists ever accepting your proposal.

Rhythmik said:
Another thing, would we also consider Hamas a psychopathic government? Are there any non-psychopathic governments in the Middle East?

Hamas isn't a government in the normal sense of the word. Neither is the Palestinian Authority, that's why it's called an 'authority' rather than government. There are probably psychopaths amongst the Palestinian leadership, as there probably are amongst all other governments, although the size of the population of Western nations and their governments make it statistically more probable that there are far more in the West.
 
Perceval said:
Rhythmik said:
Is it true that Islam teaches that all non-believers are infidels?

No more than Christians teach that anyone who is not a Christian is going to hell.

There's extremism in all religions - particularly monotheistic ones aka the religions of the 'Book'. What about Judaism and what is taught in the Talmud, particularly regarding the attitude all Jews should adopt towards the non-Jews (goyim)? I think reading about it (a great read for that: Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight Of Three Thousand Years by Israel Shahak) is greatly enlightening and goes a long way towards explaining Israelis' treatment of the Palestinian gentiles.
 
Perceval said:
Rhythmik said:
Nobody here really speaks up about how oppressive/racist/full of hatred the Arab/Muslim/Shariah regimes are.

We do, but they're usually the ones that are close friends with/propped up by the West and Israel. Saudi, Bahrain, Qatar...

Yea, and as Joe wrote in one of his recent articles:

Throughout the Middle East and going back 70+ years, the genuine opposition was, for the most part, led by moderate and sometimes largely secular Muslim groups and leaders that sought to establish a 'pan-Arab' front and to unite Arab nations. For the US and Israel (like the British before them), the triumph of a secular pan-Arab movement in the 19th or 20th centuries was the worst case scenario because progressive, enlightened secular governments tend to put the interests of their people first, or at least above the interests of foreign powers. US global hegemony was founded on the control of the resources of other nations by US 'interests'. Without that control, the US would be forced to relinquish its role of 'world leader' and the US economy would quickly collapse because the one thing that has been propping it up - the petrodollar - would be no more.

American and Israeli interests were therefore always best served by the rule of corrupt, authoritarian, fundamentalist (if only in name) Muslim leaders who would happily suppress any protests movements and play ball the American way, and history shows that it was these kinds of regimes and individuals that received funding and promotion from Western governments. Consider Saudi Arabia's fundamentalist, Sharia law-practicing, police state, for example. It is heralded in the West as a 'stabilizing force', while largely secular and somewhat 'socialist' governments like those of Iraq, Libya, Syria and Lebanon were, and are, condemned as 'terrorist regimes'. Then again, the US strategy of hoodwinking the world into accepting US global domination and plunder as 'free', 'democratic' and 'civilized', was always going to require an inversion of logic and subversion of reality, and a few hundred tons of bombs for good measure.
 
Perceval said:
It's a testimony to the decency of Palestinians that they would be willing to accept that as a solution, given that they have fundamental rights to ALL of the land and Israel has none.

Didn't the UN approve Israel's establishment? Who gets to honestly say who deserves to own land anywhere? Israel has a culture, it has its own language which isn't spoken anywhere else and IMHO was never really given a chance to become a peaceful nation. It was attacked on its day of independence and many other days since then. That set the tone of Israel's existence, being attacked by neighboring Arab states. Not taking into account the psychopathic Israeli government, is this in itself not a valid reason for Israelis to be extremely paranoid and concerned for their safety?

I am extremely empathetic to the plight of Palestinians. Yet I am also empathetic to the innocent people that just happened to be born into Israel, are brainwashed into becoming racists and forced to serve in the armed forces. I don't believe in selective compassion based on culture or nationalism.

Perceval said:
Hamas isn't a government in the normal sense of the word. Neither is the Palestinian Authority, that's why it's called an 'authority' rather than government. There are probably psychopaths amongst the Palestinian leadership, as there probably are amongst all other governments, although the size of the population of Western nations and their governments make it statistically more probable that there are far more in the West.

Probably? How can you honestly say probably for one side and definitely for the other? Hamas are indiscriminately targeting civilians and even endangering the lives of their own. Personally this seems psychopathic. Muslim countries also have very large populations. I know we would all rather governments that aren't run by psychopaths, yet I also assume we would like to live under governments that don't enforce shariah law and allow any citizen to freely express their individual beliefs.
 
Oxajil - that makes sense. Thanks for your (and everyone's) reply. I genuinely strive to make sense of the situation and see through the BS.
 
Rhythmik, from what you have written so far, it occurs to me that the influence of your family's opinions may be preventing you from seeing the situation as it is: Israelis killing innocent Palestinian civilians. There is nothing in this world that justifies the kind of brutal attacks of Israel on innocent children, women, and families, let alone schools and hospitals. Not on the basis of religion, history, or whatever. If you're thinking that Hamas is using human shields, or that Hamas wants as many dead civilians as it wants, or that Hamas has thrown massive rockets into Israel, then you, sadly, have been brainwashed. If you however do want to get to the truth, then perhaps you should start reading articles on Sott.net as if you know nothing.

Rhytmik said:
Not taking into account the psychopathic Israeli government, is this in itself not a valid reason for Israelis to be extremely paranoid and concerned for their safety?

The psychopathic Israeli government continuously reminds their citizens why they need them for safety: by spreading lies through the media and brainwashing them from childhood on. And throwing some bombs here and there in their own country (of course blaming it on Hamas). That's why some Israeli citizens are paranoid and concerned for their safety, they're afraid of a boogieman that doesn't really exist. I should also add that some - if not most - Israelis are probably not afraid at all, and celebrate on hills while they watch how bombs go off in Palestine. You'd think they'd hide out in their houses if they were afraid.

Others, though a minority, got to the truth, and saw how their government manipulated them all along.

Rhytmik said:
I don't believe in selective compassion based on culture or nationalism.

Who talks about culture or nationalism? You only need to be human to see that Israel's actions are incredibly sick.

Rhytmik said:
Hamas are indiscriminately targeting civilians and even endangering the lives of their own.

Again, you're quite misinformed. You should read up on articles about this on Sott.net
 
[quote author=Oxajil]
Rhythmik, from what you have written so far, it occurs to me that the influence of your family's opinions may be preventing you from seeing the situation as it is: Israelis killing innocent Palestinian civilians.
[/quote]

I think it may be something else, in addition, but it may just be me interpreting the original post as 'bait'.

Rhythmik, have a look at this video, as well.
If what you say about your heritage is true, you'll no doubt recognize the speaker's lineage.


https://youtu.be/L9_OcCXvT6Y
 
Rhythmik said:
Didn't the UN approve Israel's establishment? Who gets to honestly say who deserves to own land anywhere?

I think you need to read "Controversy of Zion" post-haste. Somebody have the link to the online pdf?
 
Laura said:
Rhythmik said:
Didn't the UN approve Israel's establishment? Who gets to honestly say who deserves to own land anywhere?

I think you need to read "Controversy of Zion" post-haste. Somebody have the link to the online pdf?

Yep, here it is: http://www.controversyofzion.info/Controversybook/reeedcontrov_chap.pdf
 
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