Can Israelis & Palestinians live in peace?

[Cyre2067]

Didn't the UN approve Israel's establishment? Who gets to honestly say who deserves to own land anywhere?

I think you need to read "Controversy of Zion" post-haste. Somebody have the link to the online pdf?

Yep, here it is: http://www.controversyofzion.info/Controversybook/reeedcontrov_chap.pdf

That's an incredibly powerful read, especially when you consider Political Ponerology. Those two books explained a lot about the world and why things are the way they are.

 

[Joe]

Didn't the UN approve Israel's establishment? Who gets to honestly say who deserves to own land anywhere?

The adoption of that resolution was one of the very first acts of the U.N., it was largely controlled my major Western powers at the time. There is no universally recognised rule or law that confers rights of ownership of land, and there certainly wasn't any such rule or law in the Middle East of the 1930's or 40's that had been recently 'remade' by Western powers after WWI. It is however generally accepted by civilized nations that the people that have been living and working on land for hundreds of years have a right to it before others, and certainly have a right under international law not to be evicted from it by others who have no historical presence there and therefore no tangible or even intangible connection and therefore right to it at all. There's a well-known word for such people - colonists.

Israel has a culture, it has its own language which isn't spoken anywhere else and IMHO was never really given a chance to become a peaceful nation.

There are many minority cultures and languages around the world who don't demand a state of their own because they are content to live in the area/nation state where they find themselves and where most of them have been for a long time. Israel denied itself the chance of becoming a peaceful nation by establishing itself on land belonging to others and ethnically cleansing those others from their land.

It was attacked on its day of independence and many other days since then. That set the tone of Israel's existence, being attacked by neighboring Arab states.

It was attacked on the day of it's independence because it had stolen the land from others. What do you expect them to do? If someone stole your house and kicked you out on the street, would you not get a bit irate on the day that the thief managed to also have the deeds for your house transferred into his name? The tone of Israel's existence since 1948 has been set by the Israelis who stole the land. I'm sorry, but if you steal something you can't complain when the dispossessed have a problem with you.

Not taking into account the psychopathic Israeli government, is this in itself not a valid reason for Israelis to be extremely paranoid and concerned for their safety?

They should be concerned and paranoid, just like anyone who knows that they have committed and are committing a crime and are bound to eventually be called out on it.

I am extremely empathetic to the plight of Palestinians. Yet I am also empathetic to the innocent people that just happened to be born into Israel, are brainwashed into becoming racists and forced to serve in the armed forces. I don't believe in selective compassion based on culture or nationalism.

I'm sorry, but I have to save my empathy for the victims of aggression rather than the aggressors and their supporters, regardless of how 'brainwashed' they are. The brainwashed Jews that you speak of are in no danger, not even the soldiers as far as soldiering goes. Yet you would equate the plight of caged Palestinians to those of Jews living safe and free in Israel and even the soldiers who carry out the slaughter?

Probably? How can you honestly say probably for one side and definitely for the other?

I didn't say probably for one and definitely for the other. In any case, the point is that there is a lot more evidence that the Israeli elite is comprised of many psychopaths than there is evidence to support the same about Palestinian leadership.

Hamas are indiscriminately targeting civilians and even endangering the lives of their own. Personally this seems psychopathic.

Here's where you appear to lack a full understanding of the situation. Palestinians are the ones locked up in an open air prison, kept on the brink of starvation, regularly imprisoned without trial and murdered. People that are subjected to such abuse have a fundamental right to resist it, and that resistance cannot be seen as unprovoked attack or aggression. If that resistance includes firing missiles at Israel, so be it, every single person on this planet would do or support the same action if they were a Palestinian today.

 

[Alana]

I am extremely empathetic to the plight of Palestinians. Yet I am also empathetic to the innocent people that just happened to be born into Israel, are brainwashed into becoming racists and forced to serve in the armed forces. I don't believe in selective compassion based on culture or nationalism.

I'm sorry, but I have to save my empathy for the victims of aggression rather than the aggressors and their supporters, regardless of how 'brainwashed' they are. The brainwashed Jews that you speak of are in no danger, not even the soldiers as far as soldiering goes. Yet you would equate the plight of caged Palestinians to those of Jews living safe and free in Israel and even the soldiers who carry out the slaughter?

Rhythmic, I understand how you feel. I have friends who are Jewish in NYC and friends in Israel. And it is for them also that I speak up and speak out and share articles and make my position known. They might be brainwashed, but if they have a heart, the shock of seeing children blown to pieces, children that look very much like their children (I've been in Israel, and I couldn't tell who is Jewish and who is Arab just by looks for the most part) might wake some of them up. I have no expectations though, they will do what they will do and I do what I do. We might no longer be friends. But I can't stand by and watch and be silent. For their sake too.

Consider this paragraph from a heartfelt letter by a rabbi posted in the Salon magazine just yesterday. May his words help you:

For our non-Jewish allies, the following plea: Do not let the organized Jewish community intimidate you with charges that any criticism of Israel’s brutality toward the Palestinian people proves that you are anti-Semites. Stop allowing your very justified guilt at the history of oppression your ancestors enacted on Jews to be the reason you fail to speak out vigorously against the current immoral policies of the State of Israel. The way to become real friends of the Jewish people is to side with those Jews who are trying to get Israel back on track toward its highest values, knowing full well that there is no future for a Jewish state surrounded by a billion Muslims except through friendship and cooperation. The temporary alliance of brutal dictatorships in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and various Arab emirates that give Israel support against Hamas will ultimately collapse, but the memory of humiliation at the hands of the State of Israel will not, and Israel’s current policies will endanger Jews both in the Middle East and around the world for many decades after the people of Israel have regained their senses. Real friends don’t let their friends pursue a self-destructive path, so it’s time for you too to speak up and to support those of us in the Jewish world who are champions of peace and justice, and who will not be silent in the face of the destruction of Judaism.

_http://www.salon.com/2014/08/04/israel_has_broken_my_heart_i%E2%80%99m_a_rabbi_in_mourning_for_a_judaism_being_murdered_by_israel/

 

[Jacques]

Didn't the UN approve Israel's establishment? Who gets to honestly say who deserves to own land anywhere?

The adoption of that resolution was one of the very first acts of the U.N., it was largely controlled my major Western powers at the time. There is no universally recognised rule or law that confers rights of ownership of land, and there certainly wasn't any such rule or law in the Middle East of the 1930's or 40's that had been recently 'remade' by Western powers after WWI. It is however generally accepted by civilized nations that the people that have been living and working on land for hundreds of years have a right to it before others, and certainly have a right under international law not to be evicted from it by others who have no historical presence there and therefore no tangible or even intangible connection and therefore right to it at all. There's a well-known word for such people - colonists.

Saw that yesterday on fr.sott.net: (It is in English with subtitles in french - Worth listening)

https://youtu.be/hR0G_UEzvNQ

 

[Rhythmik]

OK, thank you everyone for the explanations and the links. I'm watching the videos and reading the Controversy of Zion. It is very interesting. It's been difficult to unravel the truth of the situation because of my family's ties to the region. It's difficult accepting everything I've heard or been taught is basically a lie, and a country/culture that I love has stolen land and continues to murder innocent people (and probably much worse). And then the people closest to me have been brainwashed. I would have an easier time accepting it all if I had no involvement but that's my lesson.


One thing I keep seeing in articles:

And throwing some bombs here and there in their own country (of course blaming it on Hamas). That's why some Israeli citizens are paranoid and concerned for their safety, they're afraid of a boogieman that doesn't really exist.

Is there concrete proof of these false-flag attacks? Or is it so far heresy and circumstantial evidence?

 

[Al Today]

Can Israelis & Palestinians live in peace? From some late experiences I've had on Facebook, methinks nobody will allow this to happen. Seems people are so wrapped up within religious programming that they do indeed expect hell to boil over. I can 'see' them say: "It's in the book for christ sake so it's gotta happen. It's been foreordained". I have the view that the average person on the street, both sides, those who love their families, want peace. Then there are the fanatical psychopaths that keep feeding the beast. I just cannot help but wishfully think that most people want to be kind hearted and want to be and have good neighbors. I gotta think many want their children to play in the park, in safety. BUT, all in all this war of pain is going to continue and spill out across borders, eventually. I gotta think most people want peace and I don't think it's gonna happen.
I can't believe I'm being so new agey.

The whole situation makes me ill.

edit: change there to their

 

[rs]

My "epiphany" on the Israeli vs. Palestinian question was answered in the mid '90s. I was working at a technology company where I had the "opportunity" to work with many Israeli engineers. Now we are talking about supposedly highly educated people, not hillbillies. One time I went to lunch with two of the engineers, and somehow the subject of "the Palestinian problem" came up. Their entire demeanor changed in an instant. They both went from reasonable, intelligent and rational people to spittle spewing emotional racists, literally referring to the Palestinians as "animals". The level of emotional animosity actually caught me by surprise. I quickly realized that it was going to be impossible to have a conversation with them about an of the true issues.

As far as concrete proof of a false flag attack, there is no concrete proof by definition. If there was, it wouldn't be a false flag attack... However, to me the most compelling evidence that things are not as advertised is for any given situation to ask "who benefits"? Most of the time the Palestinians seem to choose the worst possible timing, almost as if they had this overwhelming desire to undermine their own cause. One has to ask oneself "why is this so"? There are two possibilities. First the Palestinians are complete morons, with a death wish. Second, the attack was staged to benefit Israel. There are not other explanations.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its probably a duck. As Sherlock Holmes observed "if you eliminate the obvious, whatever remains, no matter how seemingly improbable, must be the explanation".

 

[Niall]

OK, thank you everyone for the explanations and the links. I'm watching the videos and reading the Controversy of Zion. It is very interesting. It's been difficult to unravel the truth of the situation because of my family's ties to the region. It's difficult accepting everything I've heard or been taught is basically a lie, and a country/culture that I love has stolen land and continues to murder innocent people (and probably much worse). And then the people closest to me have been brainwashed. I would have an easier time accepting it all if I had no involvement but that's my lesson.


One thing I keep seeing in articles:

And throwing some bombs here and there in their own country (of course blaming it on Hamas). That's why some Israeli citizens are paranoid and concerned for their safety, they're afraid of a boogieman that doesn't really exist.

Is there concrete proof of these false-flag attacks? Or is it so far heresy and circumstantial evidence?

https://youtu.be/uM0J0LI1ymA

Defense Prize winner Moti Shefer: Iron Dome is a bluff

 

[Denis]

Rhythmik, you might also want to watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br1MCT4teIM

Dispelling the Myths About Jews, Israel and Palestine

"Miko Peled is a peace activist who dares to say in public what others still choose to deny. He has credibility, so when he debunks myths that Jews around the world hold with blind loyalty, people listen. Miko was born in Jerusalem in 1961 into a well known Zionist family. His grandfather, Dr. Avraham Katsnelson was a Zionist leader and signer on the Israeli Declaration of Independence. His father, Matti Peled was a young officer in the war of 1948 and a general in the war of 1967 when Israel conquered the West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights and the Sinai."

 

[Keit]

Very interesting video about the Iron Dome, thanks for sharing, Kniall!

I wondered if it was similar to a Patriot system, since this is what they used in previous "conflicts" and "wars". Some of them were actually American systems. Meaning, that the actual US military was operating them in various bases around the country. I remember being shown the location of one of them when we were driving by near Tel-Aviv. They were brought in as a reinforcement during the Cast Lead operation, if I remember correctly. But it was back then.

According to the Patriot wiki page,

During Operation Protective Edge in 2014, the Israeli Patriot batteries of the Israeli Air Defense Command intercepted and destroyed two unmanned aerial vehicle drones sent by Hamas.

Now, take a look at this "unmanned aerial vehicle" that was "destroyed" by the mighty surface-to-air missile.

_http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Gaza-drone-downed-by-IAF-363280

But apparently, the Iron Dome, is a completely different system, and is totally "made in Israel". And how it works is a secret. Not surprising really. This site says:
_http://blog.vdcresearch.com/embedded_hw/2012/11/iron-dome-vs-patriot-missile-systems-key-architectural-differences.html

A single Patriot missile costs somewhere in the area of $2-3 Million and, in some tactical situations using one would be in many ways like trying to kill hornets with a sledgehammer. The Iron Dome missiles on the other hand are said to cost ~$62 Thousand and are much smaller. The cost of the entire battery of missiles is also significantly less expensive. Therefore, the cost and agility of these smaller, less expensive Iron Dome missiles make it much more feasible to use on smaller incoming rockets like the ones currently being fired by Hamas.

So just very expensive fireworks, then...

 

[l apprenti de forgeron]

Hamas are indiscriminately targeting civilians and even endangering the lives of their own. Personally this seems psychopathic.

Here's where you appear to lack a full understanding of the situation. Palestinians are the ones locked up in an open air prison, kept on the brink of starvation, regularly imprisoned without trial and murdered. People that are subjected to such abuse have a fundamental right to resist it, and that resistance cannot be seen as unprovoked attack or aggression. If that resistance includes firing missiles at Israel, so be it, every single person on this planet would do or support the same action if they were a Palestinian today.

Strongly agree! The Israeli military only knows kill children and defenseless people. But there will come a reaction, there must be a reaction to these crimes against humanity.

 

[Alana]

The Israeli military only knows kill children and defenseless people. But there will come a reaction, there must be a reaction to these crimes against humanity.

And when that reaction arrives, they will say: "See, we were right all along! everyone hates us! antisemitism!" etc etc.

I was just reading this on sott, btw:
http://www.sott.net/article/283393-Crimes-against-humanity-in-Israels-own-words-We-must-expel-Arabs-We-struck-civilians-because-they-deserved-it

 

[Hesper]

Very interesting video about the Iron Dome, thanks for sharing, Kniall!

Well if this is true, and we have every reason to suspect that it is close to it, then they really took the nationalistic power of fireworks to the next level, didn't they? These fireworks A) constantly tell Israel/the world that Israel's under constant attack from terrorists and B) convince its citizens that Israel is some sort of genius warrior capable of karate chopping terrorist missiles to the ground. Why to them it's the only safe place to be! There is no limit to the audacious mendacity of pathologicals in power.

Everything about this situation is a mind job, from the denial of the realities of the Gazan concentration camp to the roots of the whole religious conflict. Excellent video Kniall, thank you for sharing.

 

[Mal7]

I also haven't read much about the history of Israel and Palestine, and haven't read Douglas Reed's Controversy of Zion,yet.

After seeing Alan Hart interviewed in a YouTube video, I ordered his book Zionism: The Real Enemy of the Jews. Volume Three - Conflict Without End? (Atlanta: Clarity Press, 2010) and have started reading it. I think it also might be a good introduction to the topic. This volume covers the period from just before the 1967-68 war up until 2010. The book shows how extensive the propaganda by the Israeli state has been, in manipulating mainstream views of Israel's history over the last few decades. In particular, the idea that the very existence of the state of Israel was threatened in 1967, and that it was in danger of being destroyed by the surrounding Arab nations, is shown to be untruthful and part of Zionist propaganda. Hart presents evidence and examples showing that Israel was by far the dominant military superpower of the region, and the surrounding Arab states knew this. Hart outlines the history behind the formation of the PLO by Nasser of Egypt, initially as something of a stooge organization, or controlled opposition, but then thanks to Yasser Arafat it became a genuine vehicle for the Palestinian cause.

Hart also outlines the history of the growing Zionist and hawkish influences within the US Government during Johnson's Presidency, and asks the question of how different the history of conflict in Israel and Palestine might have turned out without the support, or willingness sometimes to turn a blind eye, of the US Government.

The concluding epilogue of the book, "Is Peace Possible?", is on this thread's topic. Here are some quotes from it:

Political reality number one to be faced is that Zionism's in-Israel leaders are not interested in peace on terms virtually all Palestinians and most other Arabs and Muslims everywhere could accept.
[. . .]
Political reality number two to be faced is that only an American president has the leverage required to cause - or try to cause - the Zionist state to be serious about peace on the basis of an acceptable amount of justice for the Palestinians. (The leaders and governments of other major powers also have leverage, but they won't think of using it unless America takes the lead).

Political reality number three to be faced is that no American president is going to use the leverage he has unless and until he is pushed to do so by informed public opinion. As I dared to suggest in my Dear America Introduction to Volume One of this book, the problem in America is that most Americans are too uninformed and misinformed to do the pushing.

In other words, for peace to have a real chance, a constituency of understanding has got to be created in America to empower the president (whoever he/she is) to break the Zionist lobby's stranglehold on Congress on matters to do with Israel/Palestine.

- page 363.

If, Dear Americans, you continue to allow your government to support Israel right or wrong, you'll not only be betraying your own most cherished values and ideals, you'll be inviting more and more people of the world, not just 1.4 billion Muslims, to see you as complicit in the Zionist state's crimes. And that could make protecting America's own best interests a mission impossible.

- page 377.

By allowing Israel to violate international law and settle the Occupied Territories, the major powers, led by America, effectively created two sets of rules for the behaviour of nations-one for all the nations of the world minus Israel and the other exclusively for it.

Hart enables readers to grasp how PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat risked everything, including his life, to persuade first his leadership colleagues and then his people to accept his policy of compromise and peace on terms which any rational government and people in Israel would have accepted with relief.

This third volume also includes insights Hart gained while acting as the linkman in a secret exploratory dialogue between Arafat and Israel's Shimon Peres who, at the time, was the leader of the main opposition Labour Party, hoping to deny the Likud's Menachem Begin a second term in office. The story of this mediation effort and of Sharon's blood oath reveals why making peace may be a mission impossible for any Israeli leader, without sufficient outside pressure.

- from the blurb on the rear cover.

 

[Jenn]

I also haven't read much about the history of Israel and Palestine, and haven't read Douglas Reed's Controversy of Zion,yet.

Hi Mal7 I haven't read much on the history either but with the current situation have become intensely interested, I found this thread and have just started reading it...

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,2313.0.html

hope this helps :)