Castaneda and the Fourth Way

[go2]

From observing your posts, I find that a certain "flavour" they have seems to be a kind of "desperate eagerness". You seem awfully keen on being "instructed" in some way, and it would be far better for you to attempt to simply observe and learn about your machine, rather than concentrate on some kind of "exercise" as a short-cut to enlightenment.

I am not looking for a short-cut, but that I not waste time. Thank you for the paragraph on observing. I see I have not been observing the finer details, especially the physical reactions and the context.

Remember your past. Could you narrate the film of your life? Are you conscious of every event that has shaped you and made you into what you are?

Yes, I can narrate the film of my life. I have been remembering it for about five years and untangling many of the diversions I took from the script. More is revealed as I have aknowledged and made amends for harm done. I am not conscious of all events that have shaped my life, but I have examined all events I presently remember. There is more to discover, this is why I may seem eager, I find joy at the increasing understanding. I have been helped very much with this work by the material publically available, here.

I have little control over my mouth in certain situations....

Why are you so anxious to gain "control" over your mouth in such situations? What are the "consequences" of the behaviour? In what ways does it work to your disadvantage? Are there any ways in which it seems to be of benefit to you? In other words, how and what do you "lose" and how and what do you "gain" from the behaviour?

These are sincere questions, not just rhetorical. Are you able to answer them?

it became clear I have little control over my mouth in certain situations

Yes, I can answer the questions. Please notice your abbreviated quote. The importance of this event was
"it became clear" that I couldn't control my mouth, not that I couldn't control my mouth. This observation was important in understanding that I am not one, but many I's, each with its own will. The prayer was a experiment, as was the attempt to control my tongue. It had been suggested to me that I was interrupting conversations and discussing issues others preferred not to discuss in the areas of pathocracy and spirituality. I had yet to begin to consider or understand the concept of allowing all to have free will. Beyond this context, I think mastery of self must eventually exhibit mastery of ones words. Does this answer your questions?

 

[PepperFritz]

I am not looking for a short-cut, but that I not waste time.

Why? Is there a deadline to learning the lessons of Third-Density? It's like saying when learning to ride a bike, that the process of falling off the bike many times before "getting it" is "a waste of time" -- when in fact the falls are part of the process of learning how to keep one's balance. Everything is lessons, there is nothing else.

It had been suggested to me that I was interrupting conversations and discussing issues others preferred not to discuss in the areas of pathocracy and spirituality. I had yet to begin to consider or understand the concept of allowing all to have free will. Beyond this context, I think mastery of self must eventually exhibit mastery of ones words. Does this answer your questions?

Yes. What jumps out at me is that the "desperate eagerness" that perceived by Ryan could be related to an overriding attachment to "results" and the percieved advantages that such results might bring (e.g., if I have more control over my mouth in certain social situations, people will think better of me). You wish to "master" riding the bicycle in as short a time as possible, so that you can enjoy the sense of achievement, and also get on with enjoying all the advantages of being able to ride one. But, in fact, your one and sole "task" in this third-density existence is to learn how to ride a bike. Period. Inside out, top to bottom, no matter how "long" it takes.

The following excerpt from the transcripts is pertinent:

A: You see, my dear, when you arrive at 4th density, then you will see.
Q: (L) Well, how in the heck am I supposed to get there if I can't "get it?"
A: Who says you have to "get it" before you get there?
Q: (L) Well, that leads us right back to: what is The Wave going to do to expand this awareness? Because, if the wave is what "gets you there," what makes this so?
A: No. It is like this: After you have completed all your lessons in "third grade," where do you go?
Q: (L) So, it is a question of...
A: Answer, please.
Q: (L) You go to fourth grade.
A: Okay, now, do you have to already be in 4th grade in order to be allowed to go there? Answer.
Q: (L) No. But you have to know all the 3rd density things...
A: Yes. More apropos: you have to have learned all of the lessons.

.
And, of course, the notion of "wasting time" suggests a strong attachment to the third-density concept of "time", which as the C's remind is, is an illusion:

Q: (L) ...I am curious. What is time?
A: We have already told you that it is a nonexistent, artificial creation of illusion for the point of learning at the level where you are at or were, and once you have left that level, you no longer need it.
Q: (T) Maybe one of the lessons is to learn not to worry about time. Once you learn that time is not real....

A:...we want to remind you again not to worry about the extent of the progress or the direction it is taking. Just let it happen. All knowledge that it is absolutely necessary for you to gain to sustain this progress will be gained at the appropriate point in ... TIME. Therefore, not to worry as it will all fall into place, as we have told you. Now, we do not feel that you are ready, as yet, to know what your ultimate purpose is, nor is it necessary for you to know, and it certainly would not be helpful in any way, so we ask again that you please not worry about that because when the "time" comes for you to know, you will.

 

[go2]

I am not looking for a short-cut, but that I not waste time.

Why? Is there a deadline to learning the lessons of Third-Density? It's like saying when learning to ride a bike, that the process of falling off the bike many times before "getting it" is "a waste of time" -- when in fact the falls are part of the process of learning how to keep one's balance. Everything is lessons, there is nothing else.

Why? I tire of entertainment, consumption, status, and power over others. I reached a state of bankrupcy and moral collapse, which Ryan fairly characterizes as a state of "desperation." The eagerness is joy of the possibility offered by the esoteric way.

This gift gives us a possibility. We are called by the voice of our innermost heart to realize this gift. But to succeed we musst work ceaselessly, for fear of not succeeding in time.One must work says Jesus, "while it is day: the night comes when no man can work." If we keep the image of death constantly in our minds, we will appreciate with bitter regret the value of each lost day.

Yes. What jumps out at me is that the "desperate eagerness" that perceived by Ryan could be related to an overriding attachment to "results" and the percieved advantages that such results might bring (e.g., if I have more control over my mouth in certain social situations, people will think better of me). You wish to "master" riding the bicycle in as short a time as possible, so that you can enjoy the sense of achievement, and also get on with enjoying all the advantages of being able to ride one. But, in fact, your one and sole "task" in this third-density existence is to learn how to ride a bike. Period. Inside out, top to bottom, no matter how "long" it takes.

Thank you for holding a mirror so I can examine the mixed motives of my desire. You correctly point at a potential hypocrisy which is fatal for a pure magnetic "I", necessary for communion with the universal "I",as I understand it today.

A: You see, my dear, when you arrive at 4th density, then you will see.
Q: (L) Well, how in the heck am I supposed to get there if I can't "get it?"
A: Who says you have to "get it" before you get there?
Q: (L) Well, that leads us right back to: what is The Wave going to do to expand this awareness? Because, if the wave is what "gets you there," what makes this so?
A: No. It is like this: After you have completed all your lessons in "third grade," where do you go?
Q: (L) So, it is a question of...
A: Answer, please.
Q: (L) You go to fourth grade.
A: Okay, now, do you have to already be in 4th grade in order to be allowed to go there? Answer.
Q: (L) No. But you have to know all the 3rd density things...
A: Yes. More apropos: you have to have learned all of the lessons.

And, of course, the notion of "wasting time" suggests a strong attachment to the third-density concept of "time", which as the C's remind is, is an illusion:

Q: (L) ...I am curious. What is time?
A: We have already told you that it is a nonexistent, artificial creation of illusion for the point of learning at the level where you are at or were, and once you have left that level, you no longer need it.
Q: (T) Maybe one of the lessons is to learn not to worry about time. Once you learn that time is not real....

A:...we want to remind you again not to worry about the extent of the progress or the direction it is taking. Just let it happen. All knowledge that it is absolutely necessary for you to gain to sustain this progress will be gained at the appropriate point in ... TIME. Therefore, not to worry as it will all fall into place, as we have told you. Now, we do not feel that you are ready, as yet, to know what your ultimate purpose is, nor is it necessary for you to know, and it certainly would not be helpful in any way, so we ask again that you please not worry about that because when the "time" comes for you to know, you will.

You find quotes substantiating what "jumps out", however there is a contradiction in your understanding, so presented. It seems true, time is an illusion of the third density, however, this illusion of time
is necessary to learning the lessons of third density "bike riding". I tire of falling the same ditch, over and over,
instead of "riding the bike" I came to ride. We learn the lessons of third density in an illusion of time, or so it seems to me.

 

[PepperFritz]

Thank you for holding a mirror so I can examine the mixed motives of my desire. You correctly point at a potential hypocrisy which is fatal for a pure magnetic "I", necessary for communion with the universal "I",as I understand it today.

I did mean to suggest looking at possible "mixed motives" (the ones we are ALL prone to) as a factor in the sense of urgency that you feel. However, "hypocrisy" doesn't enter into it at all. You are not pretending to be something that you are not, you are simply, like most of us, still getting to know your machine and how it works.

As for "communion with the universal I": You might want to consider what the Cassiopaea Glossary has to say on that subject:

The problem with the idea of all being one is that it is sometimes naively applied to human matters, as if the human could assume God's perspective.... At the human level, it seems the application of "all is one" is realized by actively participating and studying all which is, as objectively as possible. This may actually link the student to the world of all which is, whereas seeking bliss and experiences may only create a layer of wishfulness and subjectivity effectively increasing separation of the self from the All.

... there is a contradiction in your understanding, so presented. It seems true, time is an illusion of the third density, however, this illusion of time is necessary to learning the lessons of third density "bike riding".

Perhaps what you perceive to be a "contradiction" is really just a paradox difficult for our human minds to grasp. While the C's make it clear that, as you say, "the illusion of time is necessary to learning the lessons of third-density", and that we cannot escape that illusion at this level, they also repeatedly remind us that it is ultimately "non-existent" and therefore irrelevant.

I tire of falling the same ditch, over and over, instead of "riding the bike" I came to ride.

Have you ever seen the move "GroundHog Day"? Although on the surface a silly comedy, I think it's really a quite profound representation of what third-density learning is like. As the main character has to keep living the same day over and over and over again, in all of its mechanical, repetitive predictability, before he finally "gets it" -- in the same way we have to keep "falling in the same ditch, over and over" before we finally learn to "ride the bike". Tis the nature of the Work, or so I see it. No point in beating yourself up for falling in the ditch for the 20th time, when you're probably going to have to fall into it at least another 100 times before it's over. At some point you become disattached from the anxiety of worrying about the outcome, and instead are able to sit back and just objectively OBSERVE yourself in every facet of the falling-down process....

 

[anart]

Why? I tire of entertainment, consumption, status, and power over others. I reached a state of bankrupcy and moral collapse, which Ryan fairly characterizes as a state of "desperation." The eagerness is joy of the possibility offered by the esoteric way.

Then, perhaps it's time to get serious about it. Do you understand that no one can do anything alone? Do you understand that the only way 'out of here' is by utilizing the power, knowledge, perspective and understanding of a colinear network? While both the desperation and the joy can be used as fuel to drive one, the crux of the matter is which direction one is 'rowing their boat' - and how much one is willing to pay upfront in order to become 'free'. In the beginning of my small journey, I had little time to be impatient or to even be concerned with what I was 'after' or what 'results' I was 'getting' because there was so much before me to do - so much to read, so much to understand, so much to contribute - I was SO BUSY that I had no time to think about time - this is still the case.

So - perhaps it is time for you to take an in-depth look at what you 'intend to do'.

 

[henry]

I have just read this book, and I was very impressed by the material Patterson brings forward. He treats Castaneda with great respect, even if his life ended on a descending octave. You finish the book with more questions than answers on the specific details of Castaneda's life, but the overall trajectory is clear and sad to see.

 

[go2]

Then, perhaps it's time to get serious about it. Do you understand that no one can do anything alone?

Yes, it is impossible to see ones own lies or the lies of this world without assistence. I understand this from experience and experiment.

Do you understand that the only way 'out of here' is by utilizing the power, knowledge, perspective and understanding of a colinear network?

I understand to
the limits of my current being and knowledge, however I suspect I see only a little in this regard.
Could you link to information on working with a colinear network? I have some experience working with a Twelve Step Group, which isn't exactly colinear, but has a single purpose.

While both the desperation and the joy can be used as fuel to drive one, the crux of the matter is which direction one is 'rowing their boat' - and how much one is willing to pay upfront in order to become 'free'.

I have tried credit, but I see Gurdjieff was right, its cash in advance. The direction of my heart is clear, however recapitulating life shows a mixed orientation. It has been a long strange trip, but always back to what is the purpose of this life. I have done everything and only the voice of my heart is still loud and clear. Thats why I am here.

In the beginning of my small journey, I had little time to be impatient or to even be concerned with what I was 'after' or what 'results' I was 'getting' because there was so much before me to do - so much to read, so much to understand, so much to contribute - I was SO BUSY that I had no time to think about time - this is still the case.

Yes......thank you, Anart.

So - perhaps it is time for you to take an in-depth look at what you 'intend to do'.

I walk the Camino de Santiago beginning next week, time to understand all that has come to pass in the last few years, the karma untangled, the duties done, and only a little time left. I can do this work, with a network.

I just read the definition of colinearity on the Cassiopaea Glossary. It answered my questions. Rereading this
thread, I have contributed to drift from the topic Ryan introduced, I apologize. 4.14.08

 

[Racer_Unknown]

ooops... : )

 

[kenlee]

I just finished the book and, as others have mentioned, I thought it was an easy read. Patterson does indeed give Castaneda respect. Patterson also writes with great clarity on Castaneda and his teachings However I think what is a very significant point (as hkoehli mentioned) Patterson gives evidence that Castaneda may have spent some time doing CIA work (possibly as an assassin). If this is true then he may not have been able to go beyond his guilt. Patterson points out that divine conscience was not part of Castaneda’s teachings. Although, I think, the concept of ‘warrior’ is a very important one because in a sense, I think the potential Individuality is indeed, and must be 'a warrior within,’ divine conscience was simply not at the core of Castaneda’s teachings. Castaneda’s ‘way’ and his reality were not grounded in learning his basic karmic lessons and understandings (in this reality) based on conscience and consciousness. But rather, as Patterson noted (if I am properly interpreting what Patterson said) Castaneda’s “teachings” was about waking up from the “dream of everyday life”... into just another dream while Gurdjieff's teachings was about waking up from the “dream of everyday life” into greater conscience and consciousness of the reality of this world. Because of this difference Castaneda, due his self importance and his loss of his ‘guiding star,’ lost his way.

Thanks for everyones observations on this thread. I’m glad I bought the book.

 

[Vivitskaia]

I have information that Castaneda was in a Gurdjieff Foundation group in LA that he left.

 

[Ryan]

I have information that Castaneda was in a Gurdjieff Foundation group in LA that he left.

Interesting. Could you elaborate on this?

 

[Vivitskaia]

Sorry, that's all I know.

 

[Laura]

Who do you know it from? Is the person reliable?

 

[vinny]

just FYI, Google picks up this series of correspondence, titled "letters to Sustained Action"

_http://www.sustainedaction.org/more_letters_to_sustained_action.htm says:

[...]
Thursday, June 29, 2000
Peterszasz@aol.com
Peter Szasz:
I have been with the Gurdjieff Foundation of California in SF for over thirty years and CC did pay us a visit; in the mid seventies it was, I believe, and he was given a Movements demonstration. Having had fairly extensive exposure to both, (about fifteen workshops) I can categorically say that they are VERY different in fundamental principle, approach and execution.
[...]
Corey Donovan:
Your background is most interesting. I didn't realize Castaneda paid a visit to the SF Gurdjieff group. I know that he came a few times to see the local L.A. group. And I totally agree--the Tensegrity movements are nothing in particular like the Gurdjieffan ones, and I didn't mean to suggest that they were. The idea of teaching people movements to break their habitual view of the world, etc., etc., is very much inspired by Gurdjieff, however. I believe that as a secretive, authoritarian, sophisticated modern guru figure, Castaneda modelled himself on Gurdjieff, and that teaching an endless series of movements that were constantly being changed is simply another non-coincidental similarity between them.
[...]

and _http://www.sustainedaction.org/even_more_letters_to_sustained_a.htm says:

[...]
Subject: error regarding Castaneda interview
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 18:50:59 EDT
From: Artinmedia@aol.com
BTW, Castaneda told people he had attended meetings of the L.A.
Gurdjieff foundation after he returned from adventures in the desert with Don
Juan--he said he was looking for the tradition connected with what he was
learning from DJ.
[...]

 

[Vivitskaia]

Yes