Cold-Blooded Kindness

Perceval said:
On the above point, this news article seems pertinent

90% of us would pull a lever to kill someone: But only if we could save more lives, virtual reality test finds

Recent research at Michigan State University used a 3D headset to 'put' students inside a virtual environment where a runaway train was heading towards a group of five people.

But by pulling a lever, the students could redirect the train onto another track, where one person would be crushed.

Ninety per cent of the students in the virtual environment made the decision to pull the lever and end the person's life.

I'm struggling to accept the idea that those "90%" are psychopaths. Perhaps it's evidence that 90% of the population have been ponerized. Then again, what would any of us do in such a scenario? Then again again, what is the point in conducting such studies where people are placed in this position given that the scenario is highly unlikely to be encountered by the average person in their entire lives. Unless the point is to help people rationalise the idea of killing someone else as "morally good". God knows, the war mongers with their predator drones would love for that idea to embed itself in the mass consciousness...


What strikes me more than anything is that the students take for granted that there are only two choices. They could of course choose to say that this is virtual, neither choice is what I want, and not choose.


90% are not psychopaths. They are third choice blind. Coke or pepsi?


But, then again, if there is right, and there is wrong, and there is the specific situation that determines which is which, if this were a real life situation, and there was no time for a third option, such as trying to stop the train all together, or alerting the people to move, etc, then this is a tough spot. But what do we know of the people? Does it matter? What if the one lone person is a high caliber individual and three of the five persons are essential psychopaths?
 
When I've read this news today I thought "and again they call this a choice !"

Choose between black death or cholera isn't really a choice and this rethoric way to present things is often used in politics to manipulate people
 
Perceval said:
I'm struggling to accept the idea that those "90%" are psychopaths. Perhaps it's evidence that 90% of the population have been ponerized. Then again, what would any of us do in such a scenario? Then again again, what is the point in conducting such studies where people are placed in this position given that the scenario is highly unlikely to be encountered by the average person in their entire lives. Unless the point is to help people rationalise the idea of killing someone else as "morally good". God knows, the war mongers with their predator drones would love for that idea to embed itself in the mass consciousness...

Well, one thing to consider is that in the first test, it looks like the researchers provided written examples for the participants to respond to, in other words, they were testing moral reasoning. In the second example, it was an actual simulation where participants reacted in the moment. I watched a video recently of a similar test, and the people responded that they were basically stressed out and acted on impulse. They didn't really think about what they were doing, but had the impulse to save the larger group of people. Afterwards, some were distraught to realize they had basically chosen to kill someone. I think it may be that psychopaths 'reason' that such an action is morally justified, because to them it seems to make 'moral sense' (at least in terms of professing what they think are acceptable morals). But normies, while they might make the same choice, won't necessarily come to that conclusion. It will still bother them emotionally to have made that choice.
 
Approaching Infinity said:
Perceval said:
I'm struggling to accept the idea that those "90%" are psychopaths. Perhaps it's evidence that 90% of the population have been ponerized. Then again, what would any of us do in such a scenario? Then again again, what is the point in conducting such studies where people are placed in this position given that the scenario is highly unlikely to be encountered by the average person in their entire lives. Unless the point is to help people rationalise the idea of killing someone else as "morally good". God knows, the war mongers with their predator drones would love for that idea to embed itself in the mass consciousness...

Well, one thing to consider is that in the first test, it looks like the researchers provided written examples for the participants to respond to, in other words, they were testing moral reasoning. In the second example, it was an actual simulation where participants reacted in the moment. I watched a video recently of a similar test, and the people responded that they were basically stressed out and acted on impulse. They didn't really think about what they were doing, but had the impulse to save the larger group of people. Afterwards, some were distraught to realize they had basically chosen to kill someone. I think it may be that psychopaths 'reason' that such an action is morally justified, because to them it seems to make 'moral sense' (at least in terms of professing what they think are acceptable morals). But normies, while they might make the same choice, won't necessarily come to that conclusion. It will still bother them emotionally to have made that choice.

Yeah, I don't think it would be easy for "normies" to emotionally deal with the fact that they were responsible for the death of someone who would otherwise be alive if they did not make that choice. The lives of the 5 people saved (or what types of people the 6 were, etc.) would not lessen the remorse and sorrow of having been directly responsible for the death of another person.
 
I finally recently read this book. Just to add my 2 cents, I found Carole Alden's story quite fascinating, but that Barbara Oakley left a lot to be desired. She sounds like a mixture between an authoritarian follower and a "catty" person, for lack of a better word. Some of the comments about Carole Alden's relatives were pure interpretation on her part, I think, and quite cruel.

Why even call the book "Cold-blooded Kindness", when it isn't about that? She does explain that her initial intention was to write about how altruism in excess can hurt, but if this story is true, Carole is NOT a good example, so the book should have been titled something different, IMO.

My favorite parts were the quotes from other researchers, like Approaching Infinity pointed out.

But Carole Alden's story is really interesting. I'm not 100% sure that she is a psychopath, but if she isn't, she certainly behaved like one! The amount of suffering she seems to have inflicted is just mind-boggling. The way she had all her children on her side reminded me of the story Lobaczewski tells about a woman's brothers, who kept defending her pathological behavior and view of the world, even as she continued to abuse her own son.

I think it's worth reading. The description of how she depicted herself as an animal lover but in reality mistreated her pets and was particularly attracted to snakes, lizards, etc. was just creepy. If it is true, she also invented horrible stories about her past just to look like a victim, no matter how hurtful that was for others, and used her children in the most despicable ways to elicit pity from others. Not to mention that she seemed to look for "wounded" partners, and then destroy their lives even more. The dirt and mess in her house was something I had never seen in my life (the author has pictures showing the hell Carole's family was living in). I think Carole Alden was either a very good female psychopath, or an extremely deranged person. At least from the account. Well, it could have been made up, and there is hardly anything on the Internet about her. But even though it might not all be accurate, the description of her behaviors did ring a bell, and reminded me of some "extreme" cases described in the psychopathy literature.

Approaching Infinity said:
On the subject of animal hoarders, Oakley made this interesting observation:

Or it could be that animal hoarders had difficulty making any attachment to humans at all [as opposed to receiving inadequate support from caregivers] - the best they can do, given possibly funky neurological equipment, is to fulfill their attachment needs with a training-wheels, light version through bonding with animals.

Here's some more from the analysis of animal hoarders (which I think can apply to many people who, behind a mask of "self-sacrifice", abuse other human beings, and not only animals):

Nathanson and Patronek note that:

[h]oarders often report social histories characterized by dysfunctional human relationships from adolescence into adulthood. [A]nimal hoarders frequently note their attraction to girl/boyfriends, partners and spouses who they knew to be troubled or needy. They are unable to see the connection between their partners' apparent neediness and propensity to become highly dependent upon them and their own need to achieve relational security through their care-giving role... It is typical to observe affective instability, intense and unstable interpersonal relationships, and even dissociative symptoms in hoarders... Hoarders appear to become enmeshed in a pattern of excessive need to acquire, possess, and control. [...]

Although Rescuer-Hoarders profess unselfish motives, they themselves derive benefits from the human-animal relation. When asked 'why have you become mission-bound to rescue unwanted homeless animals?' Rescuer-Hoarders consistently express their motivation is to love and care for helpless and deserving animals. While this well-intentioned motivation or concern for animals is understandable and may hold true at times or in specific cases, it is important to [note] the identification the hoarder is most likely making with helpless animals.
[...]
Rescuer-Hoarders apparent obliviousness to their animals' deplorable conditions may be conveyed by way of defensiveness, minimizing, denial, or dissociation. This lack of empathy belies any altruistic behavior or motivations. By seeing their animals as extensions of themselves, hoarders fail to acknowledge or understand whether or how their animals might have needs that are distinct from their own. In other words, by failing to acknowledge and appropriately respond to animals as 'others', Rescuer-Hoarders become, essentially, self-serving. Therefore, it would be erroneous to conclude that the hoarder's state of self-neglect is self-sacrificing -that is, that they are unselfishly foregoing their own needs in order to provide for their animals- and their motivation and actions cannot be rightly viewed as demonstrating the altruistic criteria of an unselfish concern for others.
 
Ailén said:
But Carole Alden's story is really interesting. I'm not 100% sure that she is a psychopath, but if she isn't, she certainly behaved like one! The amount of suffering she seems to have inflicted is just mind-boggling. The way she had all her children on her side reminded me of the story Lobaczewski tells about a woman's brothers, who kept defending her pathological behavior and view of the world, even as she continued to abuse her own son.

I think it's worth reading. The description of how she depicted herself as an animal lover but in reality mistreated her pets and was particularly attracted to snakes, lizards, etc. was just creepy. If it is true, she also invented horrible stories about her past just to look like a victim, no matter how hurtful that was for others, and used her children in the most despicable ways to elicit pity from others. Not to mention that she seemed to look for "wounded" partners, and then destroy their lives even more. The dirt and mess in her house was something I had never seen in my life (the author has pictures showing the hell Carole's family was living in). I think Carole Alden was either a very good female psychopath, or an extremely deranged person.

Yes, I wasn't quite sure what to make of her either and the characteropath in "Political Ponerology" did come to mind.

I don't think it is essential for such a person to be a "hoarder" in terms of material things to that extent to fall into this sort of behavior pattern though the individual I'm thinking of who pretty much fits the pattern of "cold-blooded kindness" does "collect" some things and does present herself as a great animal lover/rescuer/protector etc. She also creates stories about her past and her "role in life" that are apparently justifications to hurt other people who have never harmed her in any way.
 
Laura said:
She also creates stories about her past and her "role in life" that are apparently justifications to hurt other people who have never harmed her in any way.

That was actually one of the most disturbing details about Carole Alden's story. If it is true, she went as far as to say that her father had physically abused her (giving very few details and making people fill in the blanks), even though that had never been a visible problem for anyone (family, friends, acquaintances...), and she only brought it up when she was losing her food or wanted some power or legal defense. The way she seemed to describe him amounted to calling him a psychopath, for no apparent reason. She did the same with her husband, who was a drug-addict but according to everyone else, a very good person. She claimed that he was sexually abusive, that he hit her, etc. while the evidence said the contrary. The end result: her father died from cancer soon after her accusations started. And she murdered her husband.

Then there was this other boyfriend, Andy, who she "rescued" after his time in jail. Apparently she controlled him easily and was pretty abusive toward him. Supposedly, he wasn't the sharpest pencil in the box, so he didn't complain. He died mysteriously of a "combined drug administration", and it was never decided whether it was an accident, a suicide or a homicide. Carole tried to depict him as this evil person and herself as the never complaining victim, once again, but the police records showed frequent altercations between them.

B. Oackley wrote: "People like Carole Alden create true victims, like an ambulance sent to rescue that instead plows into a crowd." Not sure whether Carole really had any noble intentions (like an ambulance) or not...

An acquaintance of Carole wrote the following:

Even though Carole is really disdainful of people she doesn't think are as smart as she is, in a lot of respects she is just like the rest of us: We all have our own truths about ourselves and other people. The difference with Carole and others like her might be that she is unable to incorporate other people's truths into her own persona.

[...] The difference may be that I am able to hear other people's truths and can incorporate their meanings without disintegrating -or vilifying them because they don't agree with me. It seems Carole is unable to do that.

[...] She doesn't believe she's lying. Her truth is flexible and tends to mold itself the way she wants it to. I think that's her trying to soften the horrible reality, that Carole and others CAN lie consciously, and do a lot of harm intentionally.[...]
 
Laura said:
.............................I don't think it is essential for such a person to be a "hoarder" in terms of material things to that extent to fall into this sort of behavior pattern though the individual I'm thinking of who pretty much fits the pattern of "cold-blooded kindness" does "collect" some things and does present herself as a great animal lover/rescuer/protector etc. She also creates stories about her past and her "role in life" that are apparently justifications to hurt other people who have never harmed her in any way.

I was struck by the animal collecting, also....

Typical description of a psychopath: Fascination with fire and animal abuse.

I now suspect that 'rescuing' animals, (and therefore having dominion over them), is simply a more 'under the radar' expression of one's psychopathy.
 
Something very similar to this is apparently true regarding "Shaken Baby Syndrome" movement -- turns out there's not much evidence for such a syndrome, and so many people have been falsely accused. But who dare suggest otherwise! Only an evil baby-hating psychopath who should be hanged until dead in the public square. And I'm not a baby-hating psychopath, so I'll just leave this here for the curious: http://healthland.time.com/2012/01/17/the-shaky-science-of-shaken-baby-syndrome/
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/02/28/more-doctors-questioning-shakenbaby-syndrome.aspx

I think I read in a book about a doctor saying even worse things about SBS, saying most babies are just fine even after being shaken!! But I can't remember which book, I have so many. He should really be burned at the stake. Evil, baby-hating pyschopath.
 
One other curious juxtaposition is the left-brain moral syllogism (quoted earlier in the thread) vs. the right-brained artist that is apparently Carole Alden. You can see some of her art here: http://artistsofutah.org/15bytes/10july/page1.html (actually you have to go to the second page for art) And there is a slideshow here: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50179924-78/art-prison-says-inmates.html.csp

Carole currently has a property contract to create a 7’ x 9’ version of her impaled woman, entirely constructed from individual pieces of crochet layered upon one another. She also has plans to create multiple pieces of art based on her prison drawings when she is released. Expecting her to lust after currently forbidden art supplies, I am surprised when Carole says, “I want to take the materials we’re restricted to here and make something really amazing out of them. I want to do pieces that really show the complexities of drug abuse, poverty and domestic violence that shape women’s lives. Much of it will be disturbing for people to view, but I think it’s an important message to communicate on a visceral level. Only then will some people grasp the terror and despondency that pervades so many lives in secret.”

I'm guessing more Paranoid Schizophrenia or NPD, more so than garden-variety genetic psychopath.
 
MakeEmTalk said:
I was struck by the animal collecting, also....

Typical description of a psychopath: Fascination with fire and animal abuse.

I now suspect that 'rescuing' animals, (and therefore having dominion over them), is simply a more 'under the radar' expression of one's psychopathy.

I don't know if there's any evidence to support such a conclusion.
 

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