Comment to Niall Bradleys „United States of Europe: New German Reich crushes...

[paralleloscope]

Miharo are you by any chance adherent to the idea that this 'certain notorious chancellor' was anti-elite and basically a good guy?

 

[miharo]

Dantem, I love history. It is not only like chess because in real life you have an unknown number of players. It is so challenging and spooky to discover the many layers, protagonists, tricks, lies, interests, coalitions that brings one party in a position in which it must move in a certain direction or can not act anymore.

Beyond that I do not see great wisdom in comparing history. Some things are always similar, some things are always different. What is the deep insight when I know the German-Greece crisis 125 years ago resembled +63% the situation today or only -48%?

If history can repeat itself in unseen ways I want to know the pattern behind.
If Hitler had mental illness, I want to know what it was and if he was guided by Thule I want know what Thule is or was. But I do not care about “his fault”. I do not think about if Schäuble is conscious of his “evil”. But I want to know what motivates this guy on a human level.
If there is a “New German Reich” rising out of the ashes, I definitely want to know it. But Niall doesn't show any proof.

 

[miharo]

Miharo are you by any chance adherent to the idea that this 'certain notorious chancellor' was anti-elite and basically a good guy?

No!

 

[Mal7]

Re: Comment to Niall Bradleys

But “Is it just me or is he the spitting image of a certain notorious German Chancellor?” and the headline “...New German Reich crushes Greece...” is subsurface to me and discredits the entire analysis. What you call “afterthought” gives it a complete other spin.

a) He is a fairly spitting image.
b) This isn't just another instance of Godwin's Law. Making Nazi comparisons doesn't discredit analyses, if the comparisons are deserved. And if you are familiar with ponerology, the comparison is very often deserved, as it is in this case.

So, really, why does the Hitler/Nazi comparison make you so prickly?

The "spitting image" reference started off as a simple caption to a photograph, not as an essential part of the analysis. But whether or not there is a physical similiarity or appearance, I don't think is of much importance. The important similarities would be how that person is using their position of political and economic power, and the effects which that power is having on other people or whole nations like Greece.

So someone could I think conceivably look like just like Hitler, and even have a similar accent and mannerisms, and not necessarily be evil incarnate. Their goodness or badness as a politician would be assessed on what they do with their power, not by phrenology or by comparison of bone structure.

 

[Niall]

If there is a “New German Reich” rising out of the ashes, I definitely want to know it. But Niall doesn't show any proof.

Ah, so it's the substance of the article you disagree with. I'm sorry, I initially thought you were upset about something trivial. Must be a language issue.

So what you really wanted to say is that you're not convinced that Germany's control/influence over Europe on behalf of the US global system is in any way empire-like.

Right?

 

[miharo]

Godwin's Law, thanks for that one, Approaching Infinity. I did not know it.
Thats what it is. I do not give you the interpretation superiority here.
It is a law and I'm not going to tamper with. Niall calls it afterthought.
You made my day.

So what you really wanted to say is that you're not convinced that Germany's control/influence over Europe on behalf of the US global system is in any way empire-like.
Right?

Niall, I think the 3D masterminds of the current cannibalization system are in Israel, GB and the US (in this order) and they do not want the kind of German Reich Hitler wanted. Someone like Schäuble does not belong to this elite. He is a compliant (financial) helper (because of his broken personality and/or he is a psychopath).
Therefore I do not like the improper analogy Hitler/New German Reich on the one side and the setup at present.
That is not the same. It doesn't fit.

 

[l apprenti de forgeron]

It seems you are splitting hairs, and as Niall said, missing the crux of the matter, miharo. None of these pathocrats do ANYTHING for "their country." Neither did Hitler and his Nazi gang do ANYTHING for Germany - that was just the ideological mask and rhetoric that psychopaths in power use to get the people riled up and behind their agendas, which works particularly well when the people are in one or another kind of crisis (usually because of previous agendas of the pathologically power hungry). And they bring catastrophe on "their own" people and country, as much as the rest of the world - and they don't GIVE a damn....

Technocrat, ideologue, whatever, they serve the interests of the network of pathological power and domination through the institutions set up for just that purpose. When (an almost completely global) pathocracy has matured, as the current one, every position of any importance is filled with some kind of pathological personality that will naturally identify with the psychopaths and pathologicals in the highest echelons of power. That's the long and the short of it. By the way, they also tried to assassinate Hitler during the war. So what?

Yes. But if so, in Germany there are a "contitutional patriotism" which is an emergency exit for the collective identity after that nazism had was stomped, and based on loyalty to a constitution of an oligarchy of state parties. What a strange nationalism!.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_patriotism

So what you really wanted to say is that you're not convinced that Germany's control/influence over Europe on behalf of the US global system is in any way empire-like.
Right?

Niall, I think the 3D masterminds of the current cannibalization system are in Israel, GB and the US (in this order) and they do not want the kind of German Reich Hitler wanted. Someone like Schäuble does not belong to this elite. He is a compliant (financial) helper (because of his broken personality and/or he is a psychopath).
Therefore I do not like the improper analogy Hitler/New German Reich on the one side and the setup at present.
That is not the same. It doesn't fit.

Why Israel, GB and the US in that order?...And "improper analogy Hitler/New German Reich"? That is your subjectivity. Many others do see it as appropriate analogy. The story can be repeated, especially in Germany as the EU financial head.
I think that there was a session where it was said that because of Nazism all Germans were demonized (sorry, I could not find it). And although today the German leaders are below of Zionists in the chain of command, Why can not be again all Germans criminalized because of their financial oligarchy? In Greece and other European countries the analogy Hitler/New Financial German Reich is experienced as real by millions of people every day. Maybe Germans seem to work well as a scapegoat to the system, because always follow to their authority. Hopefully this time will be different.

 

[Niall]

Niall, I think the 3D masterminds of the current cannibalization system are in Israel, GB and the US (in this order) and they do not want the kind of German Reich Hitler wanted. Someone like Schäuble does not belong to this elite. He is a compliant (financial) helper (because of his broken personality and/or he is a psychopath).
Therefore I do not like the improper analogy Hitler/New German Reich on the one side and the setup at present.
That is not the same. It doesn't fit.

Schäuble does belong to this elite.

It's really simple, miharo. Reich = empire, ja?

'New German Reich' therefore describes Germany's imperial actions towards Greece.

By the way, the original working title was 'Europa für das amerikanische Reich' [in German]. Would you have preferred that?

 

[Joe]

Miharo, what you are really taking offence to is the suggestion - which was merely an afterthought that had no bearing on the arguments in the article - that the current German elite are behaving rather like German elites of old.

I understand that it's a shocking notion for you, but history does tend to repeat.

Seems pretty obvious that that was what provoked Miharo, the rest of what he said was mostly filler.

Niall accused him of patriotism, but in fact it is something akin to anti-patriotism or 'national shame' that is at the root of his reaction to the Schauble/Hitler dig.

You're a 'child of the universe' Miharo. Ditch the nationalism of whatever type, you'll feel better. :)

 

[Pierre]

I do not like the improper analogy Hitler/New German Reich on the one side and the setup at present.

It is indeed quite obvious you don't like this analogy and the flavour of your posts suggests some emotional attachment to me. This can be understandable even more if it is honestly aknowledged.

In any case I like analogy because they are closely related to pattern recognition, one of the fundamental ressource of human intelligence. It is by comparison, identifying similarities and differences, grouping similar items that we manage to understand reality.

It's a bit like your avatar showing pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. In order to find a missing piece you first identify its features, say for example: deep blue with a bit of purple and this kind of corner. Then, you'll scan through the similar pieces that fit into this group. This is pattern recognition at work and it is a heurestic process (shortcut) that enables humans to process information way faster and more effectively.

It's thanks to analogies that we transpose laws and mechanisms from one context to another one, expanding our understanding of the world. It is thanks to analogies that we connect the dots and identify unsuspected links and dynamics.

Now about the analogy between the 3rd Reich and 2015 Germany. There are of course differences (and that why Niall mentioned 'analogy' and not 'identity') but also similarities. In both cases Germany acts as an instrument of oppression against other European nations. Greece is only the most obvious victim. Most poor European countries have suffered for decades from the monetary and budgetary policy defined by the ECB that highly favors Germany.

The ECB creed: limited money creation and limited budget deficit, only benefits a competitive country like Germany but a strong euro penalizes the less competitive european countries who need devalution and investments to boost their economy and exportation. I wrote more extensively about this topic in an article mentioned in this thread.

Another similarity is the apathy of the German people relative to the ongoing oppression. If you've read Hafner's "Defying Hitler" you know how most German people didn't react much to the rise and horrors of nazism. Actually some of them even embraced this ideology because it resonated with their psyche.

Today I see the same apathy relative to the economic destruction of other european countries (so called "partners") and I can even see some German people supporting the way Greece is treated because "Germany should not pay for the excesses of the lazy Greeks" but this is an utter lie: Germany is not paying anything. It is making billions in interests payments and looting of Greek public infrastructures. Meanwhile it points the finger at rebelous Greece and presents itself as magnanimous with its umpteenth bailout package (i.e. more debt, more interests, more looting).

The same flabergasting hypocrisy occured in the 30's. Germany got most its WWI debt canceled and received billion of financial support but a few years later it imposed tremendous financial reparations upon France that was forced to pay to the last cent.

Now about the Schauble/Hitler analogy. Are they psychopaths? Are their conscious of their evil deeds? Are they mere puppets? I don't know, but what really matters is the results and they are quite similar: two German leaders cynically destroying the rest of Europe while blaming the victims.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Well-said, Pierre.

This pretty much sums up the analogy:

Now about the Schauble/Hitler analogy. Are they psychopaths? Are their conscious of their evil deeds? Are they mere puppets? I don't know, but what really matters is the results and they are quite similar: two German leaders cynically destroying the rest of Europe while blaming the victims.

 

[Joe]

I can even see some German people supporting the way Greece is treated because "Germany should not pay for the excesses of the lazy Greeks" but this is an utter lie: Germany is not paying anything. It is making billions in interests payments and looting of Greek public infrastructures. Meanwhile it points the finger at rebelous Greece and presents itself as magnanimous with its umpteenth bailout package (i.e. more debt, more interests, more looting).

Exactly. And Schauble presided over and enforced this looting. For sure, he probably has 'masters' in the shadows behind him, but that does not excuse the part he plays.

 

[Niall]

I can even see some German people supporting the way Greece is treated because "Germany should not pay for the excesses of the lazy Greeks" but this is an utter lie: Germany is not paying anything. It is making billions in interests payments and looting of Greek public infrastructures. Meanwhile it points the finger at rebelous Greece and presents itself as magnanimous with its umpteenth bailout package (i.e. more debt, more interests, more looting).

Exactly. And Schauble presided over and enforced this looting. For sure, he probably has 'masters' in the shadows behind him, but that does not excuse the part he plays.

...just as a certain notorious German Chancellor had 'masters' behind him. It was the very banality of his evil [think tea and cakes with Eva Braun at the Berghof] that enabled evil to work through him. In many ways, he was a pitiful character. Many people did, and some still do, feel pity for him because of 'his broken personality'.

Fast-forward to the post-9/11 'reich' - centered this time on the USA, not Germany, but nevertheless encompassing and working through Germany - where the line was drawn in the sand by George 'Dubya' Bush when he said, "You're either with us, or against us." Speaking up for 'the devil's intentions' makes you with them, whether that's what you intended or not, and it only makes the predator behind these psychos-in-power smile.

 

[miharo]

Reich = empire, ja?

Yep!

By the way, the original working title was 'Europa für das amerikanische Reich' [in German]. Would you have preferred that?

Niall, well, I do not understand it. 'Europa für das amerikanische Reich' (Europe for the American Reich)
Europe is a continent and I guess with “American Reich” you mean the USA. But what is the meaning? No, such a heading wouldn't be a great appetizer.
What about “United States of Europe: Wolfgang Schäuble (Germany's Minister of Finance) crushes Greece, on behalf of New Global Fascism”?

'national shame' that is at the root of his reaction to the Schauble/Hitler dig.
You're a 'child of the universe' Miharo. Ditch the nationalism of whatever type, you'll feel better.

Perceval, 'national shame' is an interesting composition. I am indeed ashamed about what happened here in the forties.
I do not think that I have too much of this feeling because for my part I refuse to feel guilty for that. Many people here do and this is fostered by some interests.

Pierre, nice writing, things I can ponder upon.
There are of course similarity, there are differences. Analogies can help to understand. No doubts.
Analogies with Hitler are usually used brainless, by both MSM and alternative media. Thats my point and to notice this is not only my personal hyper sensitivity because already 25 years ago Mike Godwin proclaimed his somehow funny law “Rule of Hitler/Nazi Analogies”. Saddam is the new Hitler, Assad is the new Hitler, Bush is the new Hitler, Genghis Khan is the new Hitler. It is like “Who blinks first?”. Nobody wants a new Stalin, a new Mao or a new Pol Pot. Why?

Most poor European countries have suffered for decades from the monetary and budgetary policy defined by the ECB that highly favors Germany.

Right. That is the reason why they launched the €. They knew exactly it would escalate this way and the resulting crisis would server their agenda. It is impossible with so many people involved nobody anticipated this. Economies so different from one another can not be tied together with a single currency and the same monetary mantra.

Germany is not paying anything

Germany is not paying anything so far. But Germany took over the guarantees of payment for the debtees.

Meanwhile it points the finger at rebelous Greece and presents itself as magnanimous with its umpteenth bailout package (i.e. more debt, more interests, more looting).

I do not understand why Tsipras/Varoufakis/Syriza accepted it after the “No” at the referendum. Why didn't they declare national bankruptcy? A sovereign nation can aways do so and blackmailing would be over. Argentina did it in 2000.
They got the “No” and then they said “Yes” to everything. Was it a put-up affair from beginnig to end?

Now about the Schauble/Hitler analogy. Are they psychopaths?

Did the Cs or Laura said somewhere Hitler wasn't a psychopath? I did read about political ponerology and psychopathy not only here but also in other forums and blogs. And I read somewhere that Hitler didn't really match the profile psychopath.
I can not find it here in the archive of this forum. Can someone help me here?

For sure, he probably has 'masters' in the shadows behind him, but that does not excuse the part he plays.

Perceval, It is not my intention to offer excuses.

feel pity for him because of 'his broken personality'.

I do not feel pity for him. I try to understand this guy psychologically.

 

[Siberia]

I do not understand why Tsipras/Varoufakis/Syriza accepted it after the “No” at the referendum. Why didn't they declare national bankruptcy? A sovereign nation can aways do so and blackmailing would be over. Argentina did it in 2000.
They got the “No” and then they said “Yes” to everything. Was it a put-up affair from beginnig to end?

If you read the article carefully, it actually answers your question very clearly:

The 'obvious' solution touted by some commentators - leave the eurozone, switch to the drachma, seek financial aid from Russia/BRICS, then join the Eurasian Economic Union - requires long-term thinking and planning, and expertly judicious execution. And no, Greece could not have gone solo by 'doing an Iceland'. The time to do so was in 2010, before Greece accepted ownership of the debt burden. But even then, it would have been no easy choice for Syriza's predecessors. Greece, unlike Iceland, is fully integrated, financially, economically and militarily, within the EU and NATO. It was in no position to leave because, had it done so, Germany and every financial speculator out there would have torn the Greek economy apart piece by piece.