CONCRETE Examples, please.

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***** This observation combined with self-remembering is what Mouravieff calls "constation". *****

This sounds to me too much like constipation lacking an IP.

(runs away).
 
Been busy trying to observe myself and while im still waiting for my books I've noticed that i can't do it for any length of time. Esp over the weekend, i found myself in social situations, parties, movies, etc and I was being myself as opposed to watching myself because the prior was, well, more fun. :-)

I keep remembering to observe myself and it comes in spurts throughout the day. One question i was wondering about was, energy work - which center is that? I first i thought instinctive, but then realized it required conscious thought, so i figured thought, and then i realized i execute different postures/motions while doing it so there's motive as well. So i can't really classify it very well unless i break it apart, and that's what ive been doing up to now.

Oh and "remembering oneself" - i don't quite get it. Like, when im observing myself I use the mantra, "I AM" inside my head, sometimes adding "HERE" and then its like everything my body/mind is doing is my other-self and the me inside my head that did the mantra is my true self. Each time i try to start fresh, realizing that i've stopped observing myself for a period and trying to think how long it's been and what i've done in the interium, but what exactly is remembering yourself? I've also tried to assert the Trueself over the mechanical self and it doesn't work. Like, i can be a voice in my head but as soon as i try to do something its my mechanical self doing the doing... strange but maybe that's what im supposed to get outta this?
 
MaskedAvatar said:
***** This observation combined with self-remembering is what Mouravieff calls "constation". *****

This sounds to me too much like constipation lacking an IP.

(runs away).
Hmm, well, I think you might be able to find this "IP" you speak of, but first: stop anticipating, and second, you will automatically stop constipating the 'flow stream'! :D

Good luck! :lol:
 
Hi Brent,

Cyre2067 said:
Been busy trying to observe myself and while im still waiting for my books I've noticed that i can't do it for any length of time. Esp over the weekend, i found myself in social situations, parties, movies, etc and I was being myself as opposed to watching myself because the prior was, well, more fun. :-)
Already, it seems, you've made some good progress. Perhaps a slight taste of your own mechanicalness? Again, to repeat Gurdjieff:

In Search of the Miraculous said:
The very first attempts showed me how difficult it was. Attempts at self-remembering failed to give any results except to show me that in actual fact we never remember ourselves.

"What else do you want?" said G. "This is a very important realization. People who know this . . . already know a great deal. The whole trouble is that nobody knows it. If you ask a man whether he can remember himself, he will of course answer that he can. If you tell him that he cannot remember himself, he will either be angry with you, or he will think you an utter fool. The whole of life is based on this, the whole of human existence, the whole of human blindness. If a man really knows that he cannot remember himself, he is already near to the understanding of his being.
I keep remembering to observe myself and it comes in spurts throughout the day.
This is "normal". When your copy of In Search of the Miraculous arrives, and you read it, you'll have more concepts that you can "bind" this to.

Oh and "remembering oneself" - i don't quite get it. Like, when im observing myself I use the mantra, "I AM" inside my head, sometimes adding "HERE" and then its like everything my body/mind is doing is my other-self and the me inside my head that did the mantra is my true self. Each time i try to start fresh, realizing that i've stopped observing myself for a period and trying to think how long it's been and what i've done in the interium, but what exactly is remembering yourself? I've also tried to assert the Trueself over the mechanical self and it doesn't work. Like, i can be a voice in my head but as soon as i try to do something its my mechanical self doing the doing... strange but maybe that's what im supposed to get outta this?
It's part of the "terror of the situation" as Gurdjieff referred to it. As to your confusion about self-remembering, perhaps another excerpt of Ouspensky's experience will help (continuing on from what has been posted):

In Search of the Miraculous said:
The very first attempts showed me how difficult it was. Attempts at self-remembering failed to give any results except to show me that in actual fact we never remember ourselves.

"What else do you want?" said G. "This is a very important realization. People who know this" (he emphasized these words) "already know a great deal. The whole trouble is that nobody knows it. If you ask a man whether he can remember himself, he will of course answer that he can. If you tell him that he cannot remember himself, he will either be angry with you, or he will think you an utter fool. The whole of life is based on this, the whole of human existence, the whole of human blindness. If a man really knows that he cannot remember himself, he is already near to the understanding of his being."

All that G. said, all that I myself thought, and especially all that my attempts at selfremembering had shown me, very soon convinced me that I was faced with an

entirely new problem which science and philosophy had not, so far, come across.

But before making deductions, I will try to describe my attempts to remember myself. ' The first impression was that attempts to remember myself or to be conscious of myself, to say to myself, I am walking, I am doing, and continually to feel this I, stopped thought. When I was feeling I, I could neither think nor speak; even sensations became dimmed. Also, one could only remember oneself in this way for a very short time.

I had previously made certain experiments in stopping thought which are mentioned in books on Yoga practices. For example there is such a description in Edward Carpenter's book From Adam's Peak to Elephanta, although it is a very general one. And my first attempts to self-remember reminded me exactly of these, my first experiments. Actually it was almost the same thing with the one difference that in stopping thoughts attention is wholly directed towards the effort of not admitting thoughts, while in self-remembering attention becomes divided, one part of it is directed towards the same effort, and the other part to the feeling of self.

This last realization enabled me to come to a certain, possibly a very incomplete, definition of "self-remembering," which nevertheless proved to be very useful in practice.

I am speaking of the division of attention which is the characteristic feature of selfremembering. I represented it to myself in the following way: When I observe something, my attention is directed towards what I observe-a line with one arrowhead:

I -------------------------> observed phenomenon.

When at the same time, I try to remember myself, my attention is directed both towards the object observed and towards myself. A second arrowhead appears on the line:

I <------------------------> observed phenomenon.

Having defined this I saw that the problem consisted in directing attention on oneself without weakening or obliterating the attention directed on something else. Moreover this "something else" could as well be within me as outside me.

The very first attempts at such a division of attention showed me its possibility. At the same time I saw two things clearly.

In the first place I saw that self-remembering resulting from this method had nothing in common with "self-feeling," or "self-analysis." It was a new and very interesting state with a strangely familiar flavor.
And secondly I realized that moments of self-remembering do occur in life, although rarely. Only the deliberate production of these moments created the sensation of novelty. Actually I had been familiar with them from early childhood. They came either in new and unexpected surroundings, in a new place, among new people while traveling, for instance, when suddenly one looks about one and says: How strange! I and in this place; or in very emotional moments, in moments of danger, in moments when it is necessary to keep one's head, when one hears one's own voice and sees and observes oneself from the outside.

I saw quite clearly that my first recollections of life, in my own case very early ones, were moments of self-remembering. This last realization revealed much else to me. That is, I saw that I really only remember those moments of the past in which I remembered myself. Of the others I know only that they took place. I am not able wholly to revive them, to experience them again. But the moments when I had remembered myself were alive and were in no way different from the present. I was still afraid to come to conclusions. But I already saw that I stood upon the threshold of a very great discovery. I had always been astonished at the weakness and the insufficiency of our memory. So many things disappear. For some reason or other the chief absurdity of life for me consisted in this. Why experience so much in order to forget it after-'wards? Besides there was something degrading in this. A man feels something which seems to him very big, he thinks he will never forget it; one or two years pass by-and nothing remains of it. It now became clear to me why this was so and why it could not be otherwise. If our memory really keeps alive only moments of self-remembering, it is clear why our memory is so poor.

All these were the realizations of the first days. Later, when I began to learn to divide attention, I saw that self-remembering gave wonderful sensations which, in a natural way, that is, by themselves, come to us only very seldom and in exceptional conditions. Thus, for instance, at that time I used very much to like to wander through St. Petersburg at night and to "sense" the houses and the streets. St. Petersburg is full of these strange sensations. Houses, especially old houses, were quite alive, I all but spoke to them. There was no "imagination" in it. I did not think of anything, I simply walked along while trying to remember myself and looked about; the sensations came by themselves.

Later on I was to discover many unexpected things in the same way. But I will speak of this further on.
Sometimes self-remembering was not successful; at other times it was accompanied by curious observations.
At this point, he goes onto describe more of his experiences, which you will perhaps have, now, some understanding of:

I was once walking along the Liteiny towards the Nevsky, and in spite of all my efforts I was unable to keep my attention on self-remembering. The noise, movement, everything distracted me. Every minute I lost the thread of attention, found it again, and then lost it again. At last I felt a kind of ridiculous irritation with myself and I turned into the street on the left having firmly decided to keep my attention on the fact that I would remember myself at least for some time, at any rate until I reached the following street. I reached the Nadejdinskaya without losing the thread of attention except, perhaps, for short moments. Then I again turned towards the Nevsky realizing that, in quiet streets, it was easier for me not to lose the line of thought and wishing therefore to test myself in more noisy streets. I reached the Nevsky still remembering myself, and was already beginning to experience the strange emotional state of inner peace and confidence which comes after great efforts of this kind. Just round the corner on the Nevsky was a tobacconist's shop where they made my cigarettes. Still remembering myself I thought I would call there and order some cigarettes.

Two hours later I woke up in the Tavricheskaya, that is, far away. I was going by izvostchik to the printers. The sensation of awakening was extraordinarily vivid. I can almost say that I came to. I remembered everything at once. How I had been walking along the Nadejdinskaya, how I had been remembering myself, how I had thought about cigarettes, and how at this thought I seemed all at once to fall and disappear into a deep sleep.

At the same time, while immersed in this sleep, I had continued to perform consistent and expedient actions. I left the tobacconist, called at my Hat in the Liteiny, telephoned to the printers. I wrote two letters.

Then again I went out of the house. I walked on the left side of the Nevsky up to the Gostinoy Dvor intending to go to the Offitzerskaya. Then I had changed my mind as it was getting late. I had taken an izvostchik and was driving to the Kavalergardskaya to my printers. And on the way while driving along the Tavricheskaya I began to feel a strange uneasiness, as though I had forgotten something.-And suddenly I remembered that I had forgotten to remember myself.
Rather recently, I had what I call a moment of "intense self-remembering" and it was exactly as Ouspensky described it. I was simply sat in my bedroom looking out of the window and then I suddenly felt the most terrible fear at what was happening in the world, and what could potentially be occurring in the near future (i.e. cataclysm). It was as if, up to that point, no matter how much I read the Signs page, it was all "over-there" and not here. Perhaps denial.

So it was just then that I experienced a most intense moment of self-consciousness. It was only a flash, but the impression was precisely such: "How strange! I AM HERE!" as if I'd been lifted out of my usual state of consciousness to something higher. I haven't yet experienced anything similar to that quality of presence, so I suppose it comes in different degrees.
 
Craig said:
In Search of the Miraculous said:
I am speaking of the division of attention which is the characteristic feature of selfremembering. I represented it to myself in the following way: When I observe something, my attention is directed towards what I observe-a line with one arrowhead:

I -------------------------> observed phenomenon.

When at the same time, I try to remember myself, my attention is directed both towards the object observed and towards myself. A second arrowhead appears on the line:

I <------------------------> observed phenomenon.

Having defined this I saw that the problem consisted in directing attention on oneself without weakening or obliterating the attention directed on something else. Moreover this "something else" could as well be within me as outside me.

The very first attempts at such a division of attention showed me its possibility. At the same time I saw two things clearly.
This is accurate, especially when one begins to approach this topic. I believe, however, that over time the sense of divided attention becomes a continuous spectrum of stretched attention, where at first we feel only the two ends (inward arrow and outward arrow). It's like the part in between is stretched too thin, and part of the fear of this state is probably due to that stretching. Physiologically, as well, we are using our brain in a new way and rewriting pathways, which were set in place through reward/punishment conditionings and our desire to be accepted by the human world around us.

Eventually, however, that part connecting the two arrows between "I" and "observed phenomenon" begins to fill in and we discover that we are in fact not really dividing our awareness but encompassing the full spectrum from subject to object with it. And in doing so we are generating or learning a new state of awareness that encompasses subjective and objective, a greater system of I/World, instead of having to compromise or defocus from one to focus on the other.

And in doing so we percieve our deeper relationship with objective phenomena and a reference of self that is more real than before. In effect our sense of reality extends and deepens in both directions, and that is what Ouspensky observed when he noted that memories combined with self-remembering were more real that ones without it. It's because reality goes both ways (subjective and objective) and these form an unbroken continuity. That continuity can become the basis of "deeper" or "higher" awareness, and many experiences of mystic unity with reality are based on such awareness.

One might also posit that past life memories are those where self-remembering somehow was involved.

In any case, the state does come in degrees with each degree representing a new level of acclimation and deconditioning. You essentially experience and own the changes occuring before you are ready to take on deeper changes. You are thus supplied with the context to approach the next layer of challenges that may already begin appearing in your life as indications that you have digested former stages as the new situations or crises/opportunities reveal themselves.

Cyre2067 said:
I keep remembering to observe myself and it comes in spurts throughout the day. One question i was wondering about was, energy work - which center is that? I first i thought instinctive, but then realized it required conscious thought, so i figured thought, and then i realized i execute different postures/motions while doing it so there's motive as well. So i can't really classify it very well unless i break it apart, and that's what ive been doing up to now.
As Craig's quotes of Ouspensky mentioned, you can reach a state where emotion and intellect merge. You can also experience states where sensation and emotion merge, and ultimately feel sensation/emotion/thought as one combined state of awareness or perception.

Initially, bioenergy is of the instinctive center, but as you synchronize higher centers this becomes more conscious. Ideally, your emotive centers can participate as well. Think of each center as a note, and the work involving the stimulation of chords or combinations of notes. These create a harmonic presence that can become the basis (stimulated by self-remembering) of a much more natural state where undifferentiated consciousness, individuality presence and physical presence (spirit/soul/body if you will) become experiences as a wholeness of being.

Our conditioning has created rifts in our being. The world is structured on the existence of those rifts. So when you seek to heal them you not only challenge your own inner status quo, but the status quo of the world and your primitive centers translate that as being put in a threatening situation, i.e., feeling fear. Within this there is also the resistance of predator's mind, to which self-remembering is a great threat.
 
Funny thing happened just now. I was rereading the above post, 2nd page, and i finished reading it. Immediately without thought i went to myspace.com and checked my messages (while i was excercising the self observation bit i was wondering why i did that as opposed to re-reading the first page, or re-reading the thread craig linked, but instead of interrupting and asserting control i let my mechanicalness go so i could observe it.) After i checked my messages i went to google.com and googled "we are living in a prison", and i clicked the first link that popped up that happened to be this one: http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=125&contentid=2399

What caught me was that they are quoting Laura's wave series on their website, and after 2 pages link you to the rest on the site itself. After finishing the excerpt i started clicking on his book reviews, got through two of them and realized what was going on.

Part of me (the pred) was "bored" and wanted entertainment, so i myspaced and googled and eventually i got bored again and realized while i could have been re-reading valuable information i was effectively doodling. Part of me thinks that it was the predator asserting its typical programs in order to get me to do what it wanted me to do: waste time, instead of what my true self wanted to do: re-read useful stuff. All in all in was a valuable lesson in self-observation which i thought to share here.
 
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