Confused about shamanism/ neo-shamanism

obyvatel said:
[quote author=echo]
Sorry again if this is the most obvious question ever, but why exactly is the trance dangerous?

Trance bypasses the natural defense mechanisms (like using the frontal cortex to critically evaluate incoming impressions and data) which are inside us for some level of protection from non-physical realms. In the Sufi Path of Knowledge, Chittick writes

[quote author=Sufi Path Of Knowledge]
Nowadays most people interested in the spirituality of the East desire the "experience," though they may call what they are after "intimate communion with God." Those familiar with the standards and norms of spiritual experience set down by disciplined paths are usually appalled at the way Westerners seize upon any apparition from the domain outside of normal consciousness as a manifestation of the "spiritual." In fact there are innumerable realms in the unseen world, some of them far more dangerous than the worst jungles of the visible world. No person familiar with the teachings of Sufism would dare lay himself open to such forces.
[/quote]

This topic has been covered in depth by Laura. The Wave series would help. Also, the following article " A Survey Of Channeling" discusses related issues.
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/chan2.htm
[/quote]

Another helpful source is Michael Topper's articles on channeling
_http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/topper/topper02a.htm#PART%20ONE

He can be difficult to read, but what I found interesting is his description of the idea that even so-called positive 4th density contact can be problematical as he describes in part three:

There is no "malevolent" intent here. These are "positive" entities. But there is deception!! This circumstance exists as an anomaly to us due to our misperception of what it means to be a "positive entity". Positive entities so polarized at 4th density level and higher, are "positive" by virtue of their decision to adhere to Cosmic Law, to subscribe to peaceful and cooperative means. They’re not "positive" in the sense that they exist to impartially help us and promote our spiritual awakening. They have taken specific, characteristic paths in space/time with very distinct destinies, and though they exist in social/memory/complex harmony with one another their sheer, incarnative situationality imposes conditions that describe the priorities of their own particular group.

Thus their subterfuge "message" to us, assumed under the guise of the Teacher most revered and sacrosanct on this planet and thus most likely to be listened to, is "benign" in the sense that it encourages our very necessary care of the planet, but it is not a message that conveys a real teaching, of maximum benefit to our own spiritual development in line with our unique destiny and collective Path. It is a message which, while promoting the positive values of our planetary husbandry is still basically self-referred, for it’s meant primarily to goad and shame us into maintaining—or prolonging the life of—a sphere which functions as a cosmic filling-station for them. They are interested in the preservation of the connecting space-lanes of the interstitial ethers, they are not interested per se in our spiritual development, which is why they’re perfectly content to paint us a picture of spiritual accomplishment consonant with our roles as glorified gardeners for "their" satellite Resource!!

Can "positive" entities out-and-out lie like that?? Yes they can! And do!

At that time, I had no knowledge of the nature of hyper-dimensional realities and I was harboring a LOT of new age beliefs, completely ignorant of the nature of evil. So, if Harner suggested that we could contact positive guides, I believed it.. :scared: I shudder now to think of what could have happened had I continued, and am thankful that I was as fortunate as I was.
 
eoste said:
Thank you Aleana for this description from Michael Topper.
This is food for the mind

You are welcome.

Actually today I found a much better link, this is Laura's article "Michael Topper on Stalking". She quotes Michael Topper and includes VERY helpful commentary. It is here:
_http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/stalking.htm
 
aleana said:
There is no "malevolent" intent here. These are "positive" entities. But there is deception!!
{snip}
Can "positive" entities out-and-out lie like that?? Yes they can! And do!

Thank you for that, aleana! Could we say that this behavior of "positive" entities "lying" could simply be a hyper-dimensional expression of "sincerity with everyone is a weakness"?
 
Buddy said:
aleana said:
There is no "malevolent" intent here. These are "positive" entities. But there is deception!!
{snip}
Can "positive" entities out-and-out lie like that?? Yes they can! And do!

Thank you for that, aleana! Could we say that this behavior of "positive" entities "lying" could simply be a hyper-dimensional expression of "sincerity with everyone is a weakness"?


I wondered the same thing, Buddy. I read this whole piece yesterday after it was posted, and thought, well, if their purpose is to maintain this sphere for their energetic purposes, then that was their aim, and it would support that. And the difference between this activity and that experienced by Strieber's critters is indeed different. However, it still seems not exactly STO to me by our terms here:


Cosmic Smerfs: Here Come the Space-Dorks
Note: it is the vision of this great, Creative Crystal, as well as the concomitant vision of the Eagle, to which the little gray space beings introduce Betty Andreasson in The Andreasson Affair. The distressing "strangeness" of Andreasson’s interdimensional experience at this point of the narrative that so tended to put off her credentialed colleagues, precisely specifies the nature of the ordeal as that of having been taken to the very threshold of 4th density "astral" or cosmic-plane reality, abutting the Archetypal force-forms projected from the ledge of Fifth Density.

It is unexplained in the book (indeed it is simply too perplexing for all those involved) but the purpose of the beings having exposed Andreasson to such an unbearably crushing intensity—see Castaneda’s very similar accounts of intolerable pressure in the attempt to physically cross such threshold zones—was that of satisfying their collective, social-memory complex curiosity as to how much of the Creator-Presence a heart-being of the earth plane could take after the several light-adjustments and technical alignments received in their craft .

Although these little bug-eyed beings involved in the Andreasson event are of the "positive" polarization-alignment despite their similarity to the negative grays, they exhibit the typical development of systems which deemphasize the median heart-center or dimension of psychic Love, so that in practical fact they are aligned with Cosmic Law but restricted in their Search for the Creator by just that comparative lack of heart-embrace; it is for this reason that they took Andreasson on several occasions to the "locale" (in terms of Astral 4th-density coordinates) of the Macrocosmic or Creative God-power, where that Presence seems to specifically concentrate and open out the psychic density as a great Door
, or push through as a nodal eminence in the form of a glowing Dome etc. Whereas they themselves, in the limits of their interminable 4th density seeking, will not "walk" directly into the Locus of that Presence, they have no compunction about pushing Andreasson into it as far as she can go.

This apparent deficiency in the development of the heart center with respect to "space beings" of the 4th density has been noted in several sources, we may even find in Meher Baba’s God Speaks a reference to the fact that "earth" is uniquely a locus or spiritual training ground for the full development of that center, and that beings of other systems and galaxies lacking such opportunity covet the experience to be gained from the lessons of earth-consciousness. From this we may interpret the nature of what the Andreasson-beings meant to observe through her ordeals with the burning Eagle or Hawk and the breath taking Crystal etc.

Due to the character of our traditional spiritual and esoteric teachings, we may have a conceptual difficulty understanding how a being of a higher density (especially one which is represented as involving the value of Love itself in its basic lessons) manages to acquire its status without benefit of any basic heart-development.

Such beings (of a positive character) have achieved the necessary intensity and developmental alignment adequate to 4th density polarization, through conscious decisions based on recognition of the abstract propriety and promotional advisability of peaceful values, cooperative characteristics and strict adherence to identifiable divine law.

Thus beings such as are encountered in the Andreasson Affair, display a recognizably "scientific" approach to spiritual considerations, they openly regard Divine Light as a measurable magnitude, actually quantifying the presence of "religious merit" so that for example when in a moment of fear Andreasson protests that she is "full of the Light", they show her "X-ray slides" of the precise ways in which she is not (they also subject her to certain gentle processes of light-balancing to amend the "breaks").

Their apparent "coldness" or objectivity in even the warmest, most "psychically alive" of astral-like circumstances does not prevent them from registering any inadvertent distress they might be causing their "captive", and modifying their approach accordingly .
If this seems minimally gratifying in light of the fact that the incident is, after all, one of those increasingly common accounts of UFO abduction, the "victim" seeming to be forced to endure such non-ordinary experience through no decision of her own, one need only compare the behavior of truly negative beings in superficially similar circumstances in order to appreciate the difference. In the famous accounts of Whitley Striebe regarding his ongoing history of bizarre abduction we have an adequate example with which to contrast the Andreasson description.
So it seems to me, if I am understanding this correctly, that they do not have the higher emotional center perhaps? Although, at the same time, it does seem to be similar to our mirrors and having the emotional center under control. I do not know. All that I keep thinking is the C's saying the good guys do not play chess. That seems to be gotten around in this article in saying that this woman agreed to it before hand in this incarnation.But, she did no work at all for it really like Laura did with 6th density. But again, maybe it is different for 4th density. There is just something that seems off to me. Perhaps it is Toppers perception? As Laura pointed out, his lack of network was his downfall. Perhaps this is just a different face of STS- portraying the lights as they often do. Notice them pushing her where they themselves will not go. That just does not sit right with me from an STO standpoint. It reminds me of the denizens of our plane looking for something and using Laura as they cannot see what they are looking for due to a frequency fence. I could be wrong. Goodness knows I am not qualified to know for sure about this.
 
Thanks, Daenerys.
I recall reading somewhere that STO wasn't what we might think. I don't remember the context, though, so maybe the reference was to here and now 3D rather than 4D. What got me thinking from the sincerity angle was trying to put myself in the picture and experiencing 4D external considering and such. The mere fact that I would be asking 'them' anything would seem to suggest I don't know diddly about enough of the issues involved to be able to ask the right question in the right way and not have my subjective mind screw up the translation of a 4D-sincere answer.

Kinda like the old days on the Unix IRC channels. A newbie logs on and starts asking questions. You can practically taste the "you owe me just because I can ask" attitude--even when it's masked. Whether the reply newbie gets is "RTFM!", trolling in some way or gets real help, depends a lot on what question is asked, how it is asked, whether he seems for real, how much explaining time is going to have to be invested, and who wants to take the time to answer. Everyone is busy with their own projects after all and not just sitting around twiddling thumbs.

Makes sense, though, in a big way, but I don't really know either.
 
aleana said:
Actually today I found a much better link, this is Laura's article "Michael Topper on Stalking". She quotes Michael Topper and includes VERY helpful commentary. It is here:
_http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/stalking.htm

Very helpful and thoughtful indeed !
Here is an excerpt from the end :

So, the bottom line is: this other "half" of the All, born along with the Creative upsurge, becomes focused on actualizing its own impulse - to undo creation - for it realizes that only then can it be at "peace."
...
The consciousness of STS/Darkness feels that it must tear apart the creative fabric of existence thereby liberating those units of energy involved in the creative functions, and "swallow" them back into itself, erasing their differential properties and powers so as to restore the One AS ONE.
Itself.
...
Sort of the "Ultimate Light Eater" preaching the gospel of Devolution as "Salvation."

An eye opening article...
 
eoste said:
An eye opening article...

Yes, and what I thought important was Laura's quotes from Ibn al-'Arabi on preparedness:

Another possible factor, based on what can be inferred from their descriptions of the "state" in which the insights were achieved, suggests that there was, perhaps, not sufficient preparation in terms of establishing a network of support, as well as the "capacity" to receive without consequences.

Ibn al-'Arabi addressed this problem in detail. He tells us that "the unveiling that the traveler experiences, (i.e. the results of meditation) "adds nothing to the principles and corollaries of faith. At most, it fills in some of the details. [...] Given that we enter the path and follow the guidance of God, and given that we experience an "unveiling" that makes all sorts of things clear to us that we never understood before, can we be sure that the unveiling is from God? Is there no possibility of satanic intervention and our going astray? Is not a person who claims that he is following his own "tasting" in effect claiming independence and setting up his own religion, at least for himself?"

And the answer he gives is that: "Any knowledge, any "tasting," any "unveiling," witnessing or self-disclosure must submit itself to the Scale of the Law. (i.e. networking.)

"The traveler who wants to reach the goal safely must avoid the deceptions that lie in wait for him on the path. Once he has reached the stages of unveiling and witnessing, he will be tempted by Satan and his own caprice to depend upon himself rather than follow the "scale of the law."

"He must move forward according to the scale of knowledge derived from [networking].

"If a "divine command" should come to him in that which is made manifest to him, that contradicts the scale, then he has been duped.

"Many of those who wish for God have been duped in their states without being aware. This is a hidden deception. a strong divine guile, and a being led on step by step without their being aware.

"Beware lest you throw the Scale from your hand... If you understand from it something different from what the people (meaning those of the path) understand such that your understanding comes between you and them, then do not rely upon your understanding! For it is a deception of the ego in a divine form without your being aware.

"We have come across sincere people among the Folk of Allah who have been duped by this station. They prefer their own unveiling and that which becomes manifest to them in their understanding. They depend upon this in their own case. Anyone who relies upon it is totally confused and has left his affiliation with the Folk, thereby joining the "greatest losers." Their striving goes astray in the present life, while they think they are working good deeds."

"When the friends of God climb in the ascents of their aspirations, the goal of their arrival is the Divine Names, since the Divine Names seek them."

"They receive only in the measure of their own preparedness.

"We do not ask those who have opinions of their own. We say to them, "Has it been revealed [among the Folk, Friends of God?]

If he says yes, then you must weigh it against what you have come to know and what has been said to you. You should also weigh it against what is known to others. This is the scale.

"The spiritual traveller who is not sufficiently rooted in the Scale of the Law may think he no longer has need for it.

"The friends of God witness the angels, but they do not witness the casting itself; or they witness the casting and they know that it was done by an angel, but they do not witness the angel. No one can combine the vision of the angel and the casting except a messenger. This is how the friend is differentiated from the messenger.

"As for how the casting takes place, I can tell you that it occurs through affinity. The heart of him who receives the casting must have the preparedness for what is cast into it. Without it, there is no reception. But preparedness is not identical with reception, since preparedness depends upon divine designation. Indeed, certain souls may walk upon the path which takes them to the door from behind which, when opened, there takes place this specific casting. Then, when they reach the door, they stop until they see that through which it will be opened for them.

"When it is opened, the command emerges one in entity, and they receive it from outside the door to the measure of their preparedness. They perform NO WORKS in achieving this. On the contrary, God specifies each of them with a preparedness.

"It is here that distinctions are drawn among the various groups, between followers, or friends, and those who are messengers.

"He who has no knowledge imagines that traveling to this door is the cause by which was earned that which was gained when opening took place. Were this the case, those who experience the opening would all be equal.

"The states present dangers to the person who experiences them. Though they are divine bestowals, there is always the risk of taking them too seriously, thinking that one has deserved the states, becoming proud, losing one's mental equilibrium. States are trials that the traveler has to undergo. The sooner they are done with, the better.

"Though "divine inrushes" may come without self-exertion, the traveler who is not prepared for them [is in grave danger.]

That was an eye-opener to me as well, particularly when I think of all the people who are engaged in so many of these activities without any idea of what they might be opening themselves to. Knowledge really does protect!
 
This starts out seemingly far off the mark of this thread, but it's how I have to begin to arrive at the point.

I studied a bit about eastern religions and practices in my youth and have been spontaneously remembering some of the things I thought about during that period, one of which has to do with siddhis, or powers, reportedly attained by some yogis. These siddhis are a trap for one not sufficiently pure to be able to withstand their allure, as their wrong use or the beginning of the pursuit of them slows or stops progress.

Now to the matter at hand:
aleana said:
eoste said:
An eye opening article...

Yes, and what I thought important was Laura's quotes from Ibn al-'Arabi on preparedness:

Another possible factor, based on what can be inferred from their descriptions of the "state" in which the insights were achieved, suggests that there was, perhaps, not sufficient preparation in terms of establishing a network of support, as well as the "capacity" to receive without consequences.[...]

[...]"The traveler who wants to reach the goal safely must avoid the deceptions that lie in wait for him on the path. Once he has reached the stages of unveiling and witnessing, he will be tempted by Satan and his own caprice to depend upon himself rather than follow the "scale of the law."

"He must move forward according to the scale of knowledge derived from [networking].
[...]

[...]"Though "divine inrushes" may come without self-exertion, the traveler who is not prepared for them [is in grave danger.]

That was an eye-opener to me as well, particularly when I think of all the people who are engaged in so many of these activities without any idea of what they might be opening themselves to. Knowledge really does protect!

While refreshing my memory about siddhis and their attendant dangers I happened across the following, which I'm sure I would have read without any alarm many years ago, having no real context in which to place it and understand it's ramifications:

[...]Another category of siddhi involves the control of the object of worship. You do not directly acquire a siddhi, but you maintain control over an entity who by nature of their higher existence possess natural powers. This relationship is maintained through your worship to the entity, who receives nourishment from the worship[...]. italics & bold added
_http://www.bvashram.org/articles/98/1/Siddhis-Riddhis-and-Mystical-Experiences/Page1.html

Yikes! There seem to exist in many places weeds too high for one to wander off in alone; snakes live in those weeds, and who're you going call if one bites you?
 
Patrick said:
[...]Another category of siddhi involves the control of the object of worship. You do not directly acquire a siddhi, but you maintain control over an entity who by nature of their higher existence possess natural powers. This relationship is maintained through your worship to the entity, who receives nourishment from the worship[...]. italics & bold added

Anytime you see the word worship in relation to 'gods' or 'entities', just replace it with wors(e)ship and you could prolly see which way you'd be going. :D
 
eoste said:
According to their website, the Foundation for Shamanic Studies from Michael Harner is dedicated to teaching, preserving, and studying shamanic knowledge for the welfare of all.

"Helping to preserve shamanism where it is being threatened, and assisting its revival when invited, are critical dimensions of the Foundation's mission. The FSS has a network of specialists in shamanism throughout the world to help save indigenous shamanic knowledge in imminent danger of being lost. The FSS also responds to requests from native peoples to help revive and maintain their own shamanic traditions...
... Our Living Treasures designation provides an annual lifetime stipend to exceptionally distinguished indigenous shamans in less-developed countries where their age-old knowledge of shamanism and shamanic healing is in danger of extinction. Special care is given to providing the economic assistance necessary to allow these Living Treasures to pass on their knowledge to their people."

At first glance, sounds good to me, helpful and useful. It seems sincere. How hard to have enough insight to be able to reject it, and not be confused !

Indeed it's difficult to see what is going on. Of course the organization, the money they charge and the drumming sessions are a big red flag!! But I'm still finding it generally hard to discern. Harner seems very sincere and well meaning like you say. I'm wondering though, if his work didn't come out as a sort of disinformation after Castaneda came out with his books? One things that caught my eye was the cover of Harner's book which has a review from Castaneda that reads: "wonderful, fascinating...Harner really knows what he's talking about" When I saw this, I immediately thought that this was Castanedas sense of humor (not being sincere with everyone). Castaneda talks about the futility of rituals while Harner's books are full of rituals, for example. They are not talking about the same kind of shamanism as far as I can see!

I'm trying not to speculate too much because it tends to occupy my mind and I'm learning to stay a bit detached to the subject and just write my paper as scientifically as I can. I'm not looking for the whole truth in these books either, as I know truth often comes in bits and pieces. I guess I'm finding out that discovering these bits and pieces is difficult!! For instance, Harner's book is mostly about doing healing and "sucking out bad energies" from people. From what I have learned this is not necessary as we are pretty much able to heal ourselves (which I think don Juan even tells Castaneda in one of the books). To me, whether you're interested in shamanism or not Castaneda's books are a way better read!

I am on the last part of the course now which deals with the question of how these anthropologists, who have gone on to teach the shamanism that they once studied, how they can keep the validity in their research? This is the heated discussion in the "scientific world" that I mentioned in my first post on this thread. How can you be involved in something and still stay objective? This must be something that has been discussed here on the forum.

Thanks to everyone who have pointed to further reading, it has been very helpful. I especially enjoyed re-reading chapter 28 of the Wave about the origins of shamanism before it became corrupted. Hopefully when I'm done with this course I will have time to read 'Secret history'!
:)
 
I just found this article and thought I would share it here in light of what's going on in the world at the moment:

_http://suite101.com/article/ritual-or-diet-aztec-cannibalism-debate-a147607

Harner argues in the book "The enigma of Aztec Sacrifice" that the aztec had to make human sacrifice because they didn't have enough animals to eat :shock:
His claims are refuted by Bernerd R Ortiz de Montellano who says that there definitely was enough animals in the area at the time.

Another thing Harner did was to send out a mass-mail after 9/11 saying that his foundation was helping people who where suffering and also helping the souls of the people who died. He also says in the letter that the reason why there are political extremists is because they haven't had first hand spiritual encounters which, by the way he can guarantee if you take his course. Just a lot of nonsense... and even a little scary. :scared:
The universities promoted him a lot in the seventies though, apparently he was at columbia, Yale and UCLA.

Anyway, I've had enough of this and am happy to be finished with this course very soon!
 
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