Confusion trying to learn from trivial circumstances

[gaman]

I had a very confusing emotional time this past weekend. I had begun to think that I had developed a little bit of inner feel of how to observe some things related to personal interactions and how to learn from them and be a little more objective in examining the context and what might really be going on. Then last weekend hit and threw me into turmoil about how I should be thinking and feeling and reacting to the situation in order to further clean my machine. I spent a lot of Sunday evening and some of today trying to work through it again but I can't seem to get a good perspective on it and I wonder what you see in the situation I will describe. As a background to this I also forgot to bring my CPAP machine and so had 2 very rough nights.

We are camping where some family and friends rent camper space. We brought our boat and my brother also brought his boat. There are a few small docks around the perimeter of the campsite for the tenants to tie their boats while they are camping. Now, this other camper has brought his really long pontoon boat and tied it on the end of the dock where it occupies the entire end of the dock (which is a "T" shape sticking out into the water). He is breaking the rules because he has left it there for months and only rarely uses it. This causes us to have more difficulty in using our boats because we have to negotiate around close to the shore where it is very shallow (with logs under the water) and it is slightly more difficult tying the boats so they don't bang the docks.

So, this is an irritation factor. Personally to me it is mainly irritating because he is so inconsiderate, breaking the rules, and causing us additional difficulty. However, it really isn't that difficult for me and he certainly couldn't park his boat in the shallower section because there isn't enough room for him to maneuver. I should also note that on a previous weekend when we were returning in our boat from watching fireworks we noticed that he was out on the lake in his boat too so everyone on my boat wanted me to dock in the space he had been using so he couldn't use the dock, but I couldn't bring myself to force him to find somewhere further down the campsite to dock in the dark.

However, it is bothering my brother so much that he goes on and on about it all day and into the evening, saying that he will tell him such-and-such or that he will park his boat to take up the guy's space and force him to park elsewhere, etc. He is also drawing his wife and my wife into it and there is this negative "feeding" (it sure seemed like feeding to me in some form) on this topic well into the evening. It is like continuously "future boasting" about all the things he might do and also continual grumbling. All this negative talk and my brother talking about how tough he will act has been somehow draining me during the day just to listen to it and I am sick of it by the evening.

Now, my brother has been sort of critical of some of my actions in the boat on Friday and Saturday, and building himself up with that as well as the future boasting I described. This has bothered my wife some, too. So Sunday when we went out, we ran over a shallow spot and dug the propeller even though it was indicated to be much deeper and this triggered another friendly criticism from him. This was too much for my wife and she heatedly took up for me, where they got in a little disagreement but later talked it out I guess to their satisfaction. But, that final incident made me feel sick and drained so much and I just tried to do some breathing and "breath out what I didn't need". All this stuff has slightly stirred some kinds of wounds that I can't remember the source yet.

Here is what I got out of it so far:

"Bad" boat guy is taking advantage of me and others. In the past I've avoided confrontation as much as possible in situations where I'm just taking up for myself because of some kind of fear or something that literally makes me physically weak and jittery. I've felt like a "sissy" when I don't take up for myself because of some unknown fear (I do a little better now but that is always present in the background) so sometimes I've justified my actions to myself so I won't see myself as having been a "sissy". Now in this case of the boat guy, you can probably see that it is irritating but trivial (BTW the guy knows the problem he is causing but told another camper he didn't care). It actually didn't present any real difficulty for me/us, just a slight inconvenience. The conundrum for me is basically should I have confronted the guy to help me emotionally (because most of my life I haven't stood up for myself)? Or is it a good thing that it is pointing out this "feeling sissy" weakness as something that should be addressed internally? I'm not a sissy in reality but their is something about my viewing myself as one sometimes that just drains the life out of me. It is crazy that something so trivial should spark such a strong emotional impact on me but to me that seems like it is something important to understand.

The other point happened when my wife took up for me with my brother. In this case, when my brother said the criticism it sparked some anger and I started to retort, but then my wife jumped in and something about that drained me instantly and made me angry at her for taking up for me and also made me feel like a "weakling". I know that when growing up my Mother and Grandmother were overprotective and made me feel like a weakling by taking up for me with my Father and Grandfather, who were very critical and I could never do anything correctly to their satisfaction.

So now in typing this I realize that this "weakling" feeling is something central. It is a very very sapping thing to me (with respect to that aspect of self-confidence) to see myself as a weakling or to think that others I know may see me as such. Is that some aspect of self-importance maybe? Would it be good to "stand up for myself" in some of the trivial matters just to build self-confidence? Or is "standing up for myself" really just trying to prop up self-importance?

I have a strong negative introject and inwardly NO self-confidence although outwardly you probably wouldn't be able to tell that. Maybe that is the core issue here. I'm tired and confused at this point but I don't want to let this go because it is strong and goes back as far as I can remember.

If you can think of some ways to help me dig on this, or put it into perspective and usefulness in terms of cleaning the machine, or rather than me being specific on how to help, just some way that might help in this I would appreciate it. I've been doing the E-E breathing, and one round of the full meditation run so far and strong things are popping out :)

 

[truth seeker]

I had a very confusing emotional time this past weekend. I had begun to think that I had developed a little bit of inner feel of how to observe some things related to personal interactions and how to learn from them and be a little more objective in examining the context and what might really be going on. Then last weekend hit and threw me into turmoil about how I should be thinking and feeling and reacting to the situation in order to further clean my machine. I spent a lot of Sunday evening and some of today trying to work through it again but I can't seem to get a good perspective on it and I wonder what you see in the situation I will describe. As a background to this I also forgot to bring my CPAP machine and so had 2 very rough nights.

Hi Gaman,

I'm fairly new but also have this issue in my life. First forgetting the CPAP machine can definitely be stressful on many levels (lack of sound sleep, worrying about not having the machine with you, etc).

I should also note that on a previous weekend when we were returning in our boat from watching fireworks we noticed that he was out on the lake in his boat too so everyone on my boat wanted me to dock in the space he had been using so he couldn't use the dock, but I couldn't bring myself to force him to find somewhere further down the campsite to dock in the dark.

I was curious as to why you mentioned this. Did you feel pressure from other people to do something you didn't want to do?

However, it is bothering my brother so much that he goes on and on about it all day and into the evening, saying that he will tell him such-and-such or that he will park his boat to take up the guy's space and force him to park elsewhere, etc. He is also drawing his wife and my wife into it and there is this negative "feeding" (it sure seemed like feeding to me in some form) on this topic well into the evening. It is like continuously "future boasting" about all the things he might do and also continual grumbling. All this negative talk and my brother talking about how tough he will act has been somehow draining me during the day just to listen to it and I am sick of it by the evening.

Now, my brother has been sort of critical of some of my actions in the boat on Friday and Saturday, and building himself up with that as well as the future boasting I described. This has bothered my wife some, too. So Sunday when we went out, we ran over a shallow spot and dug the propeller even though it was indicated to be much deeper and this triggered another friendly criticism from him. This was too much for my wife and she heatedly took up for me, where they got in a little disagreement but later talked it out I guess to their satisfaction. But, that final incident made me feel sick and drained so much and I just tried to do some breathing and "breath out what I didn't need". All this stuff has slightly stirred some kinds of wounds that I can't remember the source yet.

This is sticky. What may be happening is that your brother is consciously or unconsciously creating negative energy that he's feeding off. If I'm understanding what you wrote, it looks as though your brother tries to create a feeding frenzy wherever he goes. If it's not boat guy, it's whoever he's around. This may be one reason as to why you feel drained after these interactions.

The term "friendly criticism" sticks out for me. My mother used to call what she was doing "constructive criticism" when what she was really doing was using it as an opportunity to boost herself up by knocking someone down a peg. This is not necessarily what's going on in your case but you may want to consider it.

Or is it a good thing that it is pointing out this "feeling sissy" weakness as something that should be addressed internally?

I think this is a good place to start.

I'm not a sissy in reality but their is something about my viewing myself as one sometimes that just drains the life out of me.

I used to feel this way. A sort of world weariness.

It is crazy that something so trivial should spark such a strong emotional impact on me but to me that seems like it is something important to understand.

In my opinion, it's the out of proportion reactions to situations that are a clue that something deeper needs to be addressed.

The other point happened when my wife took up for me with my brother. In this case, when my brother said the criticism it sparked some anger and I started to retort, but then my wife jumped in and something about that drained me instantly and made me angry at her for taking up for me and also made me feel like a "weakling". I know that when growing up my Mother and Grandmother were overprotective and made me feel like a weakling by taking up for me with my Father and Grandfather, who were very critical and I could never do anything correctly to their satisfaction.

I'm sorry you had to go through this. You stated how your mother and grandmother made you feel. You may also want to explore how your father and grandfather made you feel...

So now in typing this I realize that this "weakling" feeling is something central. It is a very very sapping thing to me (with respect to that aspect of self-confidence) to see myself as a weakling or to think that others I know may see me as such. Is that some aspect of self-importance maybe? Would it be good to "stand up for myself" in some of the trivial matters just to build self-confidence? Or is "standing up for myself" really just trying to prop up self-importance?

I have a strong negative introject and inwardly NO self-confidence although outwardly you probably wouldn't be able to tell that. Maybe that is the core issue here. I'm tired and confused at this point but I don't want to let this go because it is strong and goes back as far as I can remember.

If you can think of some ways to help me dig on this, or put it into perspective and usefulness in terms of cleaning the machine, or rather than me being specific on how to help, just some way that might help in this I would appreciate it. I've been doing the E-E breathing, and one round of the full meditation run so far and strong things are popping out :)

You use the word "weakling". As I understand it, this seems to be a word that's usually used with men (probably to keep them in line). If it's not too personal, I'll look beyond the word to the feeling that's possibly meant by the word. You seem to be connecting your feelings of powerlessness to your idea of what it means to be a man. You may want to explore what exactly you think makes someone a man. Keep in mind that you don't have to go by societal "rules", you can define this for yourself and perhaps feel less pressure to conform to something that no one really fits into anyway.

I hope this helps a bit.

 

[gaman]

I should also note that on a previous weekend when we were returning in our boat from watching fireworks we noticed that he was out on the lake in his boat too so everyone on my boat wanted me to dock in the space he had been using so he couldn't use the dock, but I couldn't bring myself to force him to find somewhere further down the campsite to dock in the dark.

I was curious as to why you mentioned this. Did you feel pressure from other people to do something you didn't want to do?

Well, I did feel the pressure as you describe, from even my Mother and my Wife and I didn't want to do it. I mentioned this to show that I "stood up" to the pressure when it was pushing me to inconvenience this person, but that I most often don't stand up when people are inconveniencing me or somehow putting me down. Upon further analysis, I *think* I also did it for some reason trying to show that I'm a good guy and that I sometimes do good things that make me feel good about myself. Maybe that was me trying to compensate for the negative way I'm feeling about myself in this "weakling" scenario.

The other point happened when my wife took up for me with my brother. In this case, when my brother said the criticism it sparked some anger and I started to retort, but then my wife jumped in and something about that drained me instantly and made me angry at her for taking up for me and also made me feel like a "weakling". I know that when growing up my Mother and Grandmother were overprotective and made me feel like a weakling by taking up for me with my Father and Grandfather, who were very critical and I could never do anything correctly to their satisfaction.

I'm sorry you had to go through this. You stated how your mother and grandmother made you feel. You may also want to explore how your father and grandfather made you feel...

I have explored this too to a good degree. It is a confusing dichotomy. My father was emotionally distant most of the time, wouldn't let me help him on a project any more once I made a mistake, and was very strong when punishment time came. However, he also showed some care sometimes during bad moments and was a rock solid provider for the family. My grandfather loved me dearly and kidded with me and seemed to love having me around and would do anything for me. At the same time, he had to have top billing as far as attention goes, and was a know-it-all within the family and got agitated and angry if anyone (including me) disagreed with him. Also, no matter what I had accomplished, with my mother and grandmother praising it and over-praising it, he would mention some aspect that could have been done better.

This aspect of our family interaction seemed to combine to destroy my self-confidence and seriously inflate the "weakling" type feeling. So, I *think* I understand the factors and circumstances, although I continue to try to recall the very painful emotional events just to make sure. But, I don't know what direction to work in this regard. I'm not sure what a good perspective is regarding self-confidence. Is it important for the work to build it or is it something "false" objectively? Is it important to stand up for one's self even in "trivial" matters if it helps build self-confidence? Or is it better for one's development to endure "slights" and look at the inner self and observe what is going on?

You use the word "weakling". As I understand it, this seems to be a word that's usually used with men (probably to keep them in line). If it's not too personal, I'll look beyond the word to the feeling that's possibly meant by the word. You seem to be connecting your feelings of powerlessness to your idea of what it means to be a man. You may want to explore what exactly you think makes someone a man. Keep in mind that you don't have to go by societal "rules", you can define this for yourself and perhaps feel less pressure to conform to something that no one really fits into anyway.

I hope this helps a bit.

It does help. This pattern of circumstances and "weakling" feelings is some kind of deep emotional wound, maybe one that I'm creating in myself. I will go into it more in the area you mention to see what is there.

But what about destroying the "self-importance"? Isn't there a different twist on this that could somehow be used in this regard? Isn't it helpful to let these feelings of "weakling" hurt the ego / self-importance and watch what happens? Or would this just be mechanical suffering? I'm beyond my depth in understanding if I could use this in some way.

Thanks for your help truth seeker.

 

[truth seeker]

Well, I did feel the pressure as you describe, from even my Mother and my Wife and I didn't want to do it. I mentioned this to show that I "stood up" to the pressure when it was pushing me to inconvenience this person, but that I most often don't stand up when people are inconveniencing me or somehow putting me down. Upon further analysis, I *think* I also did it for some reason trying to show that I'm a good guy and that I sometimes do good things that make me feel good about myself. Maybe that was me trying to compensate for the negative way I'm feeling about myself in this "weakling" scenario.

I understand, thanks for explaining.

This aspect of our family interaction seemed to combine to destroy my self-confidence and seriously inflate the "weakling" type feeling. So, I *think* I understand the factors and circumstances, although I continue to try to recall the very painful emotional events just to make sure. But, I don't know what direction to work in this regard. I'm not sure what a good perspective is regarding self-confidence. Is it important for the work to build it or is it something "false" objectively? Is it important to stand up for one's self even in "trivial" matters if it helps build self-confidence? Or is it better for one's development to endure "slights" and look at the inner self and observe what is going on?

When you say the work, I assume you mean The Work. Unfortunately I've just started to read the books and can't/won't speak in that context. I'm sure someone with experience will join in soon and be of more assistance. Until then, I'm posting a link that will hopefully be of some help if you haven't seen it already:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=6989.0

But what about destroying the "self-importance"? Isn't there a different twist on this that could somehow be used in this regard? Isn't it helpful to let these feelings of "weakling" hurt the ego / self-importance and watch what happens? Or would this just be mechanical suffering? I'm beyond my depth in understanding if I could use this in some way.

While I'm sure that becoming observant of what you're feeling/experiencing is the first step, I'm not sure of how to tell you proceed with it.

 

[Buddy]

I also forgot to bring my CPAP machine and so had 2 very rough nights.

I'm tired and confused at this point...

Hi gaman. It looks to me like, for the time being at least, you should probably get back on your CPAP and get some good rest. It's very hard to keep any kind of useful perspective when you're tired or otherwise low on energy. You're probably emotionally exhausted as well for now. When you feel like it, consider some experiences with pipe-breathing for controlling/reducing stress.

I've been doing the E-E breathing, and one round of the full meditation run so far and strong things are popping out

If things are popping out, my personal sense is that you would benefit by simply regaining your 'self-observer' position and just look at what is there to see and record it for now. Someone else may have a different view however.

 

[gaman]

Thanks, Buddy. That sounds like good advice and I'll take it and stop trying so hard to analyze it and just let some more things happen and recover.

 

[truth seeker]

I was thinking about your situation and doing a few forum searches. I came across one called Depression as a stepping stone to soul growth. I haven't read all the way through it yet but have found it very beneficial (for myself) and thought it might help you as well. While we're not discussing depression in your case, I think it can apply to any emotion. What I especially appreciated about it was the detail in how to get where you're going.

Unfortunately, the link to the original article mentioned doesn't work and my searches for that were fruitless. I'm hoping that there will be an updated link mentioned in the later pages. If not, I'll do a post asking if someone can locate it. When I find it, I'll also post that here.


http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=2832.0

 

[kenlee]

Now, this other camper has brought his really long pontoon boat and tied it on the end of the dock where it occupies the entire end of the dock (which is a "T" shape sticking out into the water). He is breaking the rules because he has left it there for months and only rarely uses it. This causes us to have more difficulty in using our boats because we have to negotiate around close to the shore where it is very shallow (with logs under the water) and it is slightly more difficult tying the boats so they don't bang the docks.

Just a suggestion here but it might be a good idea to do the opposite of what you are feeling and, if possible, assert yourself in this situation and maybe simply tell the guy what you said above, that his boat is blocking the other boats and is there anyway you all could work it out so that it’ll be easier for everyone else. If he acts like a big inconsiderate blockhead then you can tell him (even if you are feeling nervous inside) that you and the others think it’s very thoughtless and inconsiderate and then you can simply walk away ( I’d be very careful about it all and wouldn’t argue with the guy or anything like that). You say that he’s “breaking the rules” so maybe after that you can go to whoever might be responsible for enforcing the rules and let them know.

I’d be extra careful about including your brother in any of this since he appears to be hotheaded about this entire situation. I’m not sure of much else you could do but at least you might make it easier for the other campers and at the same time you would have worked opposite to your automatic programming that triggers that quick reflex feeling within you of ‘no confidence.’

Then when you do this you can observe this part of yourself that believes itself to be, and is so confident that you are not confident and which controls your thoughts, emotions, your movements, saps your strength, and reenacts itself over and over again in these kinds of situations and is always running in the background of your awareness. At least, if only a moment, you’ll bring this tyrannical part of yourself to the forefront of your awareness and know about it some more as you act opposite to what it wants you to do.

I have a strong negative introject and inwardly NO self-confidence although outwardly you probably wouldn't be able to tell that. Maybe that is the core issue here. I'm tired and confused at this point but I don't want to let this go because it is strong and goes back as far as I can remember.

If you can think of some ways to help me dig on this, or put it into perspective and usefulness in terms of cleaning the machine, or rather than me being specific on how to help, just some way that might help in this I would appreciate it. I've been doing the E-E breathing, and one round of the full meditation run so far and strong things are popping out

I think your negative introject is telling you what you can’t do by making you feel that you are powerless and outside circumstances (such as the guy in the boat) is triggering this feeling. But it is simply a feeling and I think that you are attributing too much importance to this feeling (which just feeds the negative introject) and this feeling of helplessness just makes you feel more like your (not confident) self, that is, your ‘identity’ is defined as a ‘helpless guy’ by this introject (and the helpless feeling that goes with it).

But is this identity of yourself as one with “no confidence” the real you? Is it your real identity, or is it just a feeling about yourself, an image of yourself with all form and with no essential substance that has nothing to do with the real you at all? By feeling like you are helpless you may, in your mental world, then be tempted to go to the other extreme (although in your brothers case he seems to already have gone to that extreme) and in your mind become 'all powerful' (as it were) by focusing on dreams of revenge, and the “injustice of it all” and then dreaming up infinite varieties of scenarios that ‘shoulda, woulda, coulda” ?

So I think that the basis of all your feeling of no confidence is fear, that is, the fear your negative introject has in being directly confronted by your real ‘I’ that aspires to affirm itself and be free inwardly of these tyrannical parts of you that sap your energy and steal your higher possibilities. But imo this fear is not real, it’s an imaginary fear since this introject has no real substance, it’s only a mirage that you believe to be real and in the end this fear or ‘negative identity,’ can, imo, only become self destructive. It’s not a part of the real you anyway, but rather it's a foreign installation (as Castaneda might say) and it takes the place of that ‘space’ within you where the real you could ‘BE’ and within which actualize its potentialities.

 

[Jacques]

Unfortunately, the link to the original article mentioned doesn't work and my searches for that were fruitless. I'm hoping that there will be an updated link mentioned in the later pages. If not, I'll do a post asking if someone can locate it. When I find it, I'll also post that here.


http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=2832.0

That article has been reproduced in the above thread but a little bit further.

Here's the link:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=2832.msg76821#msg76821

Note: I added a note in the first post of that thread giving the link to the article.

 

[gaman]

Thank you all for your help. Kenlee you've given me additional things to pursue and it is very thoughtful, thank you. I will contemplate further.

I also talked to a therapist about it and she also had a different opinion on the causes of my reactions. All of this together helps my perspective. I'm sort of feeling the need to feed right now so let me just say:

Thanks again.