Conjuring Hitler - How Britain and America made the Third Reich

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baklavatsky said:
I hope you'll become a university professor and disproove all Preparata's assertions, as you do here.

But until then, Preparata still has more authority that you.
You really miss the point. According to the book cover, Preperata is a professor of political economy. OK, so he has some advanced knowledge in the field of political economy. But it's clear from reviewing his sources that he has very little background in the literature on the Russian civil war, and that's only one of a number of subjects which could be named which deal with topics outside of his specialization in which he simply has not consulted the relevant literature. The authors I had named in different contexts are regarded as recognized specialists in the field which their work has focused upon. Peter Kenez's two-volume work on THE CIVIL WAR IN SOUTH RUSSIA is recognized as a classic study on this subject of the civil war in south Russia. On the matter of the famine in 1931-3, Mark Tauger is the leading specialist with such studies as NATURAL DISASTER AND HUMAN ACTIONS IN THE SOVIET FAMINE OF 1931-1933. If you had simply been arguing that Kenez knows more about the civil war in the south Russia than I, or that Tauger knows more about the famine of 1931-3 than I, then I would have to concede that right away. I'm also prepared to assume that there are some specialized topics in political economy which Preperata knows much better than myself. But in regards to the topics which he touches about the Russian civil war and a number of others, he clearly knows very little and should have been more careful about pretending to publish a book which so easily branches into commenting upon things which he hasn't studied at all, not even at the level of simply gaining a good familiarity with the secondary literature such as anyone can acquire without being a specialized professor in the topics.
 
Wolner said:
baklavatsky said:
I hope you'll become a university professor and disproove all Preparata's assertions, as you do here.

But until then, Preparata still has more authority that you.
Please forgive me, but that is a juvenile statement. You're suggesting that it is the 'status' of the person making the argument rather than the argument itself that is important.
Yes, quite juvenile and quite unacceptable on this forum. baklavatsky, I've no idea why you are so emotionally attached to your current understanding of this topic, but personal attacks on other forum members will get you promptly removed. Not only are these attacks (comments) noise, they fall far outside the bounds of acceptable discourse.
 
PatrickSMcNally said:
Well your own figures make clear that the numbers were reduced steadily and that the famine cannot properly be accounted for merely by pointing to the exportation of food. It's a valid criticism to say that no one properly understood the degree of actual crop failure and how this resulted in an objective shortage of grain. But apart from the reality of crop failure there is no way of accounting for the famine. Food exports are too low to account for the conditions of famine in 1933. Radzinsky is not an authority on the subject because he has not pursued specialized research on what the archival data has shown us about food production in these years. Mark Tauger has. Go back and study what some of the research which he's done shows about the actual state of food production in these years.
I'll look at the Tauger data. But only if you concede that the point I'm making (and Radzinsky is well versed in this) is that rather than feed starving Russians, Stalin was always much more concerned about industrialization and to achieve this end he would have welcomed a crop failure twice as bad and as long. I'm quite keen for you to concede this point since failure to do so creates a strong impression of apologism on your part for one of the most radically heartless monsters humanity has thrown up. ;)
 
Wolner said:
I'll look at the Tauger data. But only if you concede that the point I'm making (and Radzinsky is well versed in this) is that rather than feed starving Russians, Stalin was always much more concerned about industrialization and to achieve this end he would have welcomed a crop failure twice as bad and as long. I'm quite keen for you to concede this point since failure to do so creates a strong impression of apologism on your part for one of the most radically heartless monsters humanity has thrown up. ;)
Stalin certainly placed a high priority on industrialization, and with good reason. The demographic data which we have from the archives clearly shows that mortality rates among the Soviet populace steadily improved into the 1950s because of economic modernization. However, there is no reason to believe that Stalin had any desire or any reason to desire a famine. The famine was an economic disaster which ran against whole purpose of industrialization.

What is true enough is that, like many other who lived in that time, Stalin grossly underestimated the role of natural factors in creating the crisis and instead attributed too much to human actions. This was one of the effects of the super-charged political atmosphere of that era that everyone just naturally assumed that a crisis of apparently vanishing grain stocks must be cause by a conspiracy from somewhere. Tauger documents very carefully the role played by rustic plant diseases and the resurgence of the rat population, which followed a natural trend of every decade or so, in causing the crop failure which no one properly recognized.

It's also well-documented that collectivization did improve agricultural output significantly. That fact comes right from the archives. In the past it was customary for Cold War literature to draw upon the officially published, and inflated, figures of agricultural output which Moscow put out prior to 1933 as a way of arguing that grain production could have grown better if no collectivization had occurred. This has been discredited since the archives opened up. Tauger discusses this issue, among others, in the essay "Statistical Falsifications..." In fact, when we readjust the pre-1993 figures to what the archives reveal we see that Soviet grain production did clearly benefit from collectivization.

I should also mention that for Radzinsky to cite a figure of grain exports from 1933 is very deceptive, since it's agreed that most of these exports happened after the 1933 crop which was very good. As far as exports in 1932, yes these did occur and although they took place on a much lower scale than what had initially been intended the fact they hapened at all is evidence of how grossly the real situation was understood in Moscow.

The documentary archives clearly show that Stalin did believe that some form of kulak sabotage supported by foreigners was at the root of the crisis and we have no reason to believe that he ever followed any strategy aimed at creating a famine. In the essay "Grain Crisis or Famine?" Tauger shows the role played by the Ukrainian State Commission in 1928-9 at providing aid to victims of crop-failure in the Ukraine. There's no reason to believe that Stalin would have done this had the intent ever been to create a deliberately artificial famine.

In a less charged era what would probably have occurred is that the Stalin would have sought international relief aid just as Lenin in 1921-2. That would not have prevented the famine, but would certainly have lessened it.
 
at the end of this page http://www.historiographie.info/ukr1933.html, mostly written in French, you can find links to various articles about "Soviet Famines and Agriculture, and Other Famines". Most of the documents are PDF files.

SUR LA « FAMINE GÉNOCIDAIRE STALINIENNE » EN UKRAINE EN 1933 : UNE CAMPAGNE ALLEMANDE, POLONAISE ET VATICANE
Annie Lacroix-Riz Ukraine 1933 mise à jour d’avril 2007
....

Writings on Soviet Famines and Agriculture, and Other Famines

There items are articles in journals or books, and two are free-standing small monographs in two series: the Carl Beck Papers published by the University of Pittsburgh and the Donald Treadgold Papers published by the University of Washington. Because of copyright restrictions not all of these are available for downloading from this site. For those that are not available, please email me and I should be able to send a PDF copy to you. The Treadgold Papers has allowed me to email a PDF version of my paper to interested readers outside the U.S. upon request. I urge interested readers in the U.S. to obtain the publications in the Beck and Treadgold Papers from the publishers rather than downloading them. Both series have websites:

Carl Beck Papers: http://www.ucis.pitt.edu/crees/cbpaper.html
Treagold Papers: http://depts.washington.edu/reecas/dwt/dwt.htm
Tauger, et al Papers: "The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933."
Tauger, 'The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933, SR 91.pdf (2463 kb)
First exchange with Conquest on 1991 article
Second exchange with Conquest on 1991 article
" Natural Disaster and Human Actions in the Soviet Famine of 1931-1933."
Tauger, Natural Disaster and Human Actions.pdf (4592 kb)
" Statistical Falsification in the Soviet Union: A comparative Case Study of Projections, Biases, and Trust"
Tauger, Statistical Falsification in the Soviet Union.pdf (4644 kb)
" Grain Crisis or Famine? The Ukranian State Commission for Aid to Crop-Failure Victims and the Ukranian Famine of 1928-1929."
Tauger, Grain Crisis or FamineQ, in Raleigh, Provincial Lan.pdf (1626 kb)
Tauger, Soviet Peasants, Collectivization, Resistance and Adaptation.pdf
" Le Livre Noire du Communisme on the Soviet Famine of 1932-1933"
Tauger, Chapter for Roter Holocaust book b.pdf (175 kb)
R. W. Davies, M. B. Tauger, S. G. Wheatcroft
" Stalin, Grain Stocks and the Famine of 1932-1933"
Davies, Tauger, and Wheatcroft, 'Stalin, Grain Stocks...', SR 95.pdf (1737 kb)
" War die Hungersnot in der Ukraine intendiert?"
Tauger, M. War die Hungersnot in der Ukraine intendiertQ Ro.pdf (482 kb)
Tauger, on famines and scholarship, H-Russia 04.16.02, my p.pdf (50 kb)

Entitlement, Shortage, and the 1943 Bengal Famine: Another Look, Journal of Peasant Studies, vol. 31, no. 1, Octobor 2003, 45-72. (1,000 kb)
 
For French people, there is a short (50 mins) and interesting video of a conference held by Jacques R. Pauwels about this period at this address http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x10hfx_le-mythe-de-la-bonne-guerre

La Deuxième Guerre Mondiale, une croisade américaine pour la défense de la liberté et de la démocratie ? Les vainqueurs écrivant l'histoire, c'est cette version qui est enseignée depuis 1945 des deux côtés de l'Atlantique. Alors que l'on se prépare à célébrer le 60ème anniversaire de la capitulation, Jacques Pauwels, preuves à l'appui, dévoile le mythe de la «libération». Aux Etats-Unis, Hitler a très longtemps été considéré comme un excellent partenaire en affaires mais dans une guerre qui ne se déroule pas comme prévu, les alliances finissent alors par se former contre les «mauvais ennemis», avec les «mauvais alliés»...
Le débarquement de Normandie qui ne survient que très tard, le 6 juin 1944, fera malgré tout de ce second conflit mondial une formidable aubaine financière pour les Etats-Unis. En libérant une partie de l'Europe des fascistes pour la «dominer» économiquement, toutes les conditions sont également réunies dès 1945 pour entamer une très longue Guerre froide..
Review of his book http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/llt/55/br_23.html

The Myth of the Good War: America in the Second World War

Reviews / Comptes Rendus
Jacques R. Pauwels, The Myth of the Good War: America in the Second World War (Toronto: James Lorimer 2002)

JACQUES PAUWELS set out to synthesize the disparate monographs and scholarly articles that strip away the layers of the American mystique surrounding that country's participation in World War II. The US remained neutral during the first two and a half years of war, and only entered the fray after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour. Its armed forces then spent most of the next two years focusing on maintaining America's Pacific empire and beating back Japan's challenge for domination of Asia. Yet its government and tame scholars would quickly construct a mythology in which America was at war to defend democracy and civil liberties in Europe and defeat the fascist regimes that were the enemies of such values. After the war, American involvement in the prosecution of war criminals at Nuremburg and in the reconstruction of Germany were also presented as proof of the country's commitment to the destruction of fascism and the re-establishment of democracy in Europe. 1
Pauwels is mostly successful in his effort to construct a counter-narrative. His is a lively book, originally written in Flemish, and later translated into German, Spanish, and French. Lorimer published an English version, translated by Pauwels himself (his PhD and university teaching experience are Canadian), in 2002. Pauwels marshals the considerable evidence of the moral and financial support of leading American corporate officials in the 1930s for the Hitler regime, and their involvement in strengthening the German war machine once war broke out, an involvement that did not abate when the US itself joined the Allies as an enemy of Nazi Germany. As Pauwels notes, American corporations with subsidiaries in Germany benefited from Hitler's economic policies. "Their German subsidiaries and/or partner firms, such as Coca-Cola's bottling plant in Essen, General Motors' Opel automobile factory in Rüsselsheim near Mainz, Ford's Fordwerke in Cologne, IBM's facility in Berlin, or Standard Oil's infamous German partner, IG Farben, flourished under a Hitler regime that had swept away the unions, whose rearmament program caused a flood of orders, and with whom all sorts of highly profitable deals could be concluded thanks to the services of corrupt Nazi bigwigs such as Herman Göring, unscrupulous bankers such as the notorious Hjalmar Schacht, and financial institutions in Germany itself or in Switzerland." (30) 2
American capitalists, like their British counterparts, hoped that Hitler would aim his guns at the Soviet Union, destroy Bolshevism, and open up the Communist giant to foreign capital, while destroying workers' illusions everywhere that they would ever get away with trying to end capital's reign. When Britain, finally fearful that Hitler in fact intended to dominate western Europe and threaten their empire, went to war with Hitler, the US remained on the sidelines. Its capitalists were happy to arm both sides, and continued to hope that the two belligerents would unite in a war against the hated Soviets. 3
But, according to Pauwels, American capitalists, while supportive of Hitler's pro-capital and anti-labour policies, soured on him because of his promotion of autarchy. Britain offered more lucrative economic prospects, particularly after Churchill and Roosevelt agreed to the Lend-Lease program that provided American government guarantees for American manufacturers selling war materials to Britain. Nonetheless, American industrialists who were active in fuelling the German war machine, were happy to celebrate Nazi successes across Europe. Among guests at functions in New York in June and July in 1940, celebrating the Wehrmacht's victories were the leading officials of General Motors, Ford, and Texaco. 4
Of course, corporate America, which did not want to let markets in the Pacific disappear, supported Franklin Roosevelt's declaration of war on Japan after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour in December 1941. When Hitler then joined his Japanese allies in declaring war on the US, there was no way to extract the country officially from the war in Europe. But for several years the government's focus was on the war in the Pacific, and the Roosevelt administration, while it may not have approved of US corporations continuing to help the Nazis, pretended that there was no ongoing relationship between American subsidiaries in Germany and American headquarters. 5
Once the war was over, the American occupation zone and eventually the zones occupied by Britain and France, whose debts to the Americans left them with little option but to defer to the emerging Cold War leader of the West, became havens for former Nazi officials and corporate leaders who had collaborated with the Nazis. The Americans proved as determined to weaken labour organizations as they were to strengthen the hand of the Nazi collaborators who assumed control of "democratic" Germany's government and corporations in the postwar period. After formal liberation from Nazi rule, German workers recreated their unions and established democratically elected works councils in factories. They expected managers to receive input from these councils and to regard them as co-managers of the firm. When the owners of the firms were Nazis or Nazi collaborators, as they generally were, the workers also called for the state to assume ownership. The Americans suppressed the works councils and defended the right of Nazi owners and managers to remain in place. Confounding democracy with the rights of capital, the Americans insured that Germans only enjoyed democracy at the ballot box, a limited right that they nonetheless denied to citizens in many other countries who proved less willing than the Germans to give parliamentary majorities to pro-American, pro-capitalist politicians. 6
There are lacunae in this narrative. Pauwels weaves back and forth between the state and the corporations, only at times being clear about the relationship between the two. The result is a book with rather little nuance. This is particularly true with regards to the figure of Franklin D. Roosevelt and his administration more broadly. The Left, both in Roosevelt's time and ever since, have had some difficulties determining where to fit this scion of a ruling-class family within a class-based account of American history. Though he was never anti-capitalist, his convictions about how to fix the capitalist system made him seem a class traitor to a large section of the capitalist class. By most accounts, Roosevelt and at least a section of his administration were neither pro-Nazi nor "isolationist." They behaved gingerly with regards to Hitler because the so-called "isolationists" in Congress, who were, in fact, despite that neutral-sounding term, mainly pro-Nazi, were believed to have public opinion on their side. Indeed most accounts of American political opinion in this period stress the weakness of anti-fascist organizations in the country before and during the war, with both the Socialists and Communists opposing the country's entry into war when Britain and France finally declared war on Hitler. Roosevelt, though more focused on the Japanese threat than the Nazis, had made overtures to Britain in late 1937 about using naval blockades to "quarantine" aggressor nations. They were swiftly rejected by Neville Chamberlain, whose Foreign Secretary, Anthony Eden, then resigned because he had not been consulted by Chamberlain and because he recognized that his modest efforts to end Chamberlain's appeasement policies could not bear fruit. Without internal or external allies for a bellicose policy regarding the dictators, and obviously unwilling to make common cause with Stalin, the major world leader opposed to Hitler, Roosevelt retreated. But his enthusiasm for Lend-Lease and his eventual willingness to open a Western front in Europe resulted at least in part from anti-fascist sympathies, though certainly, as Pauwels suggests, the Soviet victories in Europe against Germany probably played a bigger role. The Americans were not prepared to entertain the idea of a socialist Europe, whether of the dictatorial Soviet-controlled variety, or workers' republics run by workers' councils along the models of the original soviets at the time of the Russian Revolution. 7
It is clear that the American state was unwilling at any time, whether before the war, during the war, or in the aftermath of the war, to penalize in any way American corporate leaders who actively supported Nazi rearmament. Government leaders were happy to maintain Nazis in position of authority throughout both industry and government if only as an alternative to the popular demands among urban workers for democratic socialism. 8
American politicians of the post-war period, particularly both George Bushes, love to dredge up the Munich Agreement of 1938 to rationalize their invasions of various sovereign nations. They imply that Munich represented the craven surrender of jaded leaders of European democracies to Hitler's tyranny, and illustrated the need for America's leaders never to allow a similar surrender to tyranny. Pauwels' work complements the growing body of literature that demonstrates the shallowness of interpretations of relations between Hitler and the leaders of Britain and France in terms of "appeasement" as opposed to the common interests of pro-capitalist politicians. It also complements the extensive literature on American imperialism which underlines the profoundly anti-democratic outlook of the people who run American corporations and governments, even as they fool their own population with slogans that suggest American politics is guided by a commitment to democracy and Christian values. Indeed Pauwels ties together these two sets of scholarly literature to explain, in popular language, the real goals of the American ruling class from the time of the Nazis' rise to power to the beginnings of the Cold War. 9

Alvin Finkel
Athabasca University
 
Check out this site http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/jewishwar.cfm
it maybe gives another view on that story....... and till today Germany has no
peace treaty and is still occupied by the 3 victorious powers (UK, USA & France)
Russia has left this story by 1990.

But I think all that information we can retrieve is still a stalking horse for something
which stays on the sideline.

Everything was going like a Swiss watch.

1. The hate of Churchill against Germany (look at his quotes that Germany must be smashed
and totally defeated)

2. The Zionist who declares war against Germany before Hitler came in charge
They also bring USA into that war. (The State of Israel Story)

3. manipulating of Russia which was a big friend of Germany (czars family was partly
from Germany)

4. France who wants to destroy germany in total. (Napoleon plans)

5. many many other reasons and hints

So they all together implemented the cruel Nazi State to have a bogeyman to destroy.
And all that is based on money interests which is related to the Zionist which
controlled the European money system.

Here is one quote of Hitler how he was thinking about war:
It is a pity that you have to go to war because of a drunken guy (Churchill), rather than to serve peace works, such as art,

And there is many massive muddle and absurdity in that story related to desinformation and propaganda.

Nether the less I am just in that story since years, but there is always a coup de théâtre which shows the story with a new livery.

The Zionists which are controlling the US and Britain since some hundred years getting more and more
control (i.e. Federal Reserve Act of 1913) they are involved in building the Nazi state. They wanted to have Israel....
and they promised Britain to bring US into war as a quid pro quo for they getting Israel.

And now the story is getting insane... and I can't believe and I think I can't be true
but I learned that the Zionist have implemented the Nazi state to get the state of Israel and to bring back the Jewish people back to
Israel, (Millions of Jewish people lived in Germany in the 1930's and before and where highly esteemed business men
and handycrafts) so the Zionist has made this major plan (mass destruction of the unworthy Jewish people so that
the "worthy" Jewish people flee to the "new state of Israel". I think it is to insane to believe but I will follow up
if this is relavant part of the story or if it is only desinfo.

It not easy to talk about all that because you have to be very cautious here in germany talking about the past, and what has happend (stated in the books of history and what could have happend when you are reading between the lines)
Because since I was a small boy I learned that I am guilty that all Germans are guilty, to love my land and it's people is National Socialism (=Nazi) Normal patriotism which is very normal in UK and US is absolutely taboo.
So I grew up without identifing with my home and my land. At the age of 16 I started my research (now I am 33) and
I found that all relations to the 3rd Reich is based on the wars 18th and 19th century Napoleon and Bismark are playing a big
role in that game the royals of Germany, UK and France are playing a much bigger role in that game (i.e. Oranienburg,
Habsburg, Mount Button = Buttenberg) but all lanes are coming back to the Family of Rothschild and some other Zionist
Families who controlls the money system within Europe.
It is a real big amazing story but something must be behind all that all that seems to me like a big cover or cloak for
something bigger which could be seen when you are looking at the details. It like to not see the forest / wood for the trees.
Guys who seems to play a big role in that story are only puppets in a game, i.e. Hitler, Churchill, Roosevelt,
but to find out who is the puppet master should be on high priority. Made you got a clue?

It's just an small impression that the theme is so huge and big and got so many relations to other themes and so many
desinfo and propaganda, puppet playing etc. that it is hard to get the story in line.
 
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